Resolved Betsafe - I didn't get the spin I wanted

chazmj6

Dormant account
Joined
Nov 30, 2011
Location
London
I deposited 3 instalments with betsafe - I had little luck. On my fourth instalment I staked a big bet, it spun and then stopped with an error message - I took a screenshot of the error message and sent it to the company and they've been very unhelpful, not understanding and quite frankly untrustworthy. I asked what had happened and they said - and I have a screenshot of this conversation too - that a security manager had locked my account and wanted to check some things - things I'd already told them. Just address, DOB and number - which of course were all fine. It's a poor excuse. What can I do? I'm calling my banks to cancel payments and I recommend people not to use them.
 

philderby1

Senior Member
Joined
Oct 8, 2012
Location
derby
They sound terrible. my advice would be to contact the rep on here. i cant honestly say that i have any experience with them. that behavior from a casino would indicate to me that they suspect you of having multiple accounts with them. Thats something i would talk to the rep about for sure. please don't feel im having a rant, im tying to help where i can. did you read the terms of the bonus you took? I know from past experience that bonus terms concerning roulette can be/are quite strict. in short ALLWAYS read the t's and c's of bonus prior to taking them. also table games like roulette sometimes will not contribute 100% to the wagering. do you have any correspondence you could post to provide a clearer picture of the situation? I look forward to your next post
 

dunover

Unofficial T&C's Editor
Staff member
webmeister
PABnonaccred
PABnononaccred
CAG
mm3
Joined
May 22, 2012
Location
the bus shelter, opposite GCHQ Benhall
Betsafe are OK and I'd think twice about getting your bank to cancel any payments, even if they could as where would you stop? Just the fourth payment with the error message or all the previous 3 too, to get an unfair chargeback? This would seriously trouble you in future and you could never ever trust being paid any wins anywhere thereafter.

If they've blocked your account through duplication or previous chargebacks then they would refund all your deposits and lock you out, they wouldn't steal from you.

The last and most sensible option is to let them sort the matter out; it can be frustrating waiting but if you are of good character and have done things by the rules, then you shouldn't be worrying too much.

Bear in mind we get many new posters on here screaming blue murder in a fit of pique because they have been thwarted in whatever they are trying to do against a casino, and thinking we will all automatically assume they are telling us everything and back them up.

Perhaps you can elaborate a bit, and tell us everything in full and honest detail?:)
 

chazmj6

Dormant account
Joined
Nov 30, 2011
Location
London
I 100% guarantee you I'm not withholding the truth - I have screenshots. No duplicate accounts, a brand new user. They reinstated the account 3 mins later after a call. It's still open. They offered me £100 cash to use as I wish. How's that not admitting they're in the wrong? I have it all in writing and with screenshots. I will cancel payments - I'm not using them again unless they handle this properly.
 

vinylweatherman

You type well loads
Joined
Oct 14, 2004
Location
United Kingdom
I 100% guarantee you I'm not withholding the truth - I have screenshots. No duplicate accounts, a brand new user. They reinstated the account 3 mins later after a call. It's still open. They offered me £100 cash to use as I wish. How's that not admitting they're in the wrong? I have it all in writing and with screenshots. I will cancel payments - I'm not using them again unless they handle this properly.

This should only ever be the LAST resort, but you seem to be using it as a FIRST resort.

For a start, the screenshot of the error may help us suggest what might have gone wrong. It is common for online casinos to produce odd error messages at times, and casinos should be judged on how they handle the matter, not the fact that an error was encountered.

They have already offered you £100 in CASH as interim compensation for the inconvenience. This is pretty generous. What really matters is whether the error has cost you money. The game failed to resolve, so the bet should be void. You may have LOST this big bet had there been no error.

The locking of the account may have been down to you being rather confrontational, and leading them to believe that you were going to get your bank to reverse the transactions straight away.

Even if you get your money back this way, you will be added to an industry blacklist which will make any casino you try to play at wary, and likely not to accept you. You will also face being banned from this site should you go ahead with this threat.
 

dunover

Unofficial T&C's Editor
Staff member
webmeister
PABnonaccred
PABnononaccred
CAG
mm3
Joined
May 22, 2012
Location
the bus shelter, opposite GCHQ Benhall
I 100% guarantee you I'm not withholding the truth - I have screenshots. No duplicate accounts, a brand new user. They reinstated the account 3 mins later after a call. It's still open. They offered me £100 cash to use as I wish. How's that not admitting they're in the wrong? I have it all in writing and with screenshots. I will cancel payments - I'm not using them again unless they handle this properly.

Well that's given us a bit more detail. Like VWM says it's VERY unwise to protest via chargebacks, or attempts to do so. So maybe the £100 offer does suggest they were in the wrong - then that's very good it shows they are not out to have you feel unhappy or cheated. If you are threatening them with chargebacks then if I was them I'd take the £100 offer back and tell you where to get off. Cool down a bit and consider the consequences of what you are saying and doing; VWM has described them above so I don't need to expand.

If you go back a while I personally told what happened to me about chargebacks. I didn't actually make a chargeback but had a lost wallet and cancelled all my cards in December 2012. The result was my bank stopped all transactions appearing from that day onwards. Unfortunately two of these were casino ones made before that time, which didn't turn up on the card until 2 days later unknown to me, and this later cost me £810 in profit when I went back to the casino without realizing what had happened. My deposits were refunded and I lost the £810 profit.

Trust me, you really don't want any card or banking discrepancies hanging over you just because of a bit of pique you are feeling now.
 

ChopleyIOM

Hearthstone Addict
webby
Joined
Mar 25, 2012
Location
IOM
I'm still not sure what the OP's big problem is. He had a casino error that happened to coincide with a big game, sure it's annoying but it does happen, but if the bet had actually reached the system then simply reloading the game should have shown the game again and repeated the game to conclusion. (Certainly on all the softwares I play, that's what happens.)

1) If the money for the game was taken but the game was never shown to a conclusion at the time or on a reload (and it doesn't really matter if it's £1 or £10 or £100 or £1000, a game should never be 'lost in the system'), then yes that's a problem.

2) If the money for the game was taken but it resumed on a reload and showed the result, no problem.

3) If the money for the game wasn't taken and the balance remained unaltered, no problem.

(For the record I get quite a lot of (2) with the WMS slots when they're playing up at Unibet, and I've seen Tesla do (3) quite a lot, but neither of them concern me TBH, either the bet is placed or it isn't, as long as I'm shown the bet result on a reload or the money for the bet simply isn't taken, I don't mind. As far as I'm aware I've never had a (1) in five years of playing online.)

I think the OP needs to elaborate more on exactly what happened, and what exactly his grumble is, because at the moment I feel that both the thread title and his attitude could do with being modified.

Personally I suspect there's something we're not being told here, especially since he's donning the big stamping chargeback boots, which is very bad form IMO.

chazmj6, I'd respectfully ask you to post more details about exactly what happened, and what you think went wrong to cause you to label Betsafe as 'untrustworthy and unfair' and start threatening chargebacks.
 

chazmj6

Dormant account
Joined
Nov 30, 2011
Location
London
Ok, I'm not going to cancel the payments - I thought the way they were behaving indicated that they were not a proper company I.e. one of these casino 770 scam type places. I was burned badly by them with delayed payments and now I'm extremely nervous with online casinos. But I like using them! It was more a suggestion than a threat but people's voices in their minds perhaps take it the wrong way.

The fact of the matter is that it spun, and then nothing - error message - it made me extremely suspicious to be honest. They've given me the £100 and have communicated so they seem legit. I more wanted to use this site as a tool to gain some integrity for the situation and have it 'in the open' and get advice. I haven't been aggressive to them - just assured, clear and certain of my case.

Based on the responses here I'm reassured that they are legit - let's see with my £100 where it goes. I'll feedback.

I'm still not sure what the OP's big problem is. He had a casino error that happened to coincide with a big game, sure it's annoying but it does happen, but if the bet had actually reached the system then simply reloading the game should have shown the game again and repeated the game to conclusion. (Certainly on all the softwares I play, that's what happens.)

1) If the money for the game was taken but the game was never shown to a conclusion at the time or on a reload (and it doesn't really matter if it's £1 or £10 or £100 or £1000, a game should never be 'lost in the system'), then yes that's a problem.

2) If the money for the game was taken but it resumed on a reload and showed the result, no problem.

3) If the money for the game wasn't taken and the balance remained unaltered, no problem.

(For the record I get quite a lot of (2) with the WMS slots when they're playing up at Unibet, and I've seen Tesla do (3) quite a lot, but neither of them concern me TBH, either the bet is placed or it isn't, as long as I'm shown the bet result on a reload or the money for the bet simply isn't taken, I don't mind. As far as I'm aware I've never had a (1) in five years of playing online.)

I think the OP needs to elaborate more on exactly what happened, and what exactly his grumble is, because at the moment I feel that both the thread title and his attitude could do with being modified.

Personally I suspect there's something we're not being told here, especially since he's donning the big stamping chargeback boots, which is very bad form IMO.

chazmj6, I'd respectfully ask you to post more details about exactly what happened, and what you think went wrong to cause you to label Betsafe as 'untrustworthy and unfair' and start threatening chargebacks.
 

dunover

Unofficial T&C's Editor
Staff member
webmeister
PABnonaccred
PABnononaccred
CAG
mm3
Joined
May 22, 2012
Location
the bus shelter, opposite GCHQ Benhall
I'm still not sure what the OP's big problem is. He had a casino error that happened to coincide with a big game, sure it's annoying but it does happen, but if the bet had actually reached the system then simply reloading the game should have shown the game again and repeated the game to conclusion. (Certainly on all the softwares I play, that's what happens.)

1) If the money for the game was taken but the game was never shown to a conclusion at the time or on a reload (and it doesn't really matter if it's £1 or £10 or £100 or £1000, a game should never be 'lost in the system'), then yes that's a problem.

2) If the money for the game was taken but it resumed on a reload and showed the result, no problem.

3) If the money for the game wasn't taken and the balance remained unaltered, no problem.

(For the record I get quite a lot of (2) with the WMS slots when they're playing up at Unibet, and I've seen Tesla do (3) quite a lot, but neither of them concern me TBH, either the bet is placed or it isn't, as long as I'm shown the bet result on a reload or the money for the bet simply isn't taken, I don't mind. As far as I'm aware I've never had a (1) in five years of playing online.)

I think the OP needs to elaborate more on exactly what happened, and what exactly his grumble is, because at the moment I feel that both the thread title and his attitude could do with being modified.

Personally I suspect there's something we're not being told here, especially since he's donning the big stamping chargeback boots, which is very bad form IMO.

chazmj6, I'd respectfully ask you to post more details about exactly what happened, and what you think went wrong to cause you to label Betsafe as 'untrustworthy and unfair' and start threatening chargebacks.


There you go chazjm6 - three of us singing from the same hymn sheet plus Chopley also pointing out, which we (WVM and me) failed to do, that unresolved games by default on the softwares ALWAYS either don't take the stake from the balance, or complete and show resolution when the connection to the server resumes. Therefore we really do need to know what exact discrepancy you are alleging. We also may need to know the context of the £100 offer - was it bonus with WR or direct withdrawable cash, and to get that in context how much was the stake of the incomplete game?
Otherwise we are just conjecturing which can backfire on us and mean we've wasted time typing you replies based on what we think happened as opposed to what actually has.

Over to you.
 

vinylweatherman

You type well loads
Joined
Oct 14, 2004
Location
United Kingdom
Ok, I'm not going to cancel the payments - I thought the way they were behaving indicated that they were not a proper company I.e. one of these casino 770 scam type places. I was burned badly by them with delayed payments and now I'm extremely nervous with online casinos. But I like using them! It was more a suggestion than a threat but people's voices in their minds perhaps take it the wrong way.

The fact of the matter is that it spun, and then nothing - error message - it made me extremely suspicious to be honest. They've given me the £100 and have communicated so they seem legit. I more wanted to use this site as a tool to gain some integrity for the situation and have it 'in the open' and get advice. I haven't been aggressive to them - just assured, clear and certain of my case.

Based on the responses here I'm reassured that they are legit - let's see with my £100 where it goes. I'll feedback.

This sounds like a disconnect, a common problem with online casinos. If the stake was never taken, the bet never reached the server. If the stake WAS taken, the bet would have been made and resolved, but you would not have seen the result. It should be possible to find the result via gaming logs. In either event, you are £100 up from where you would have been had this error not occurred.
 

chazmj6

Dormant account
Joined
Nov 30, 2011
Location
London
No it wasn't a disconnect - they actively chose at that point to temporarily close my account because apparently my IP changed - I'm on a mobile device. They apparently wanted to make sure someone else wasn't playing on my account. They dose to do this mid spin. I then contacted them and they checked me and reopened it. But the spin which had £9 on numbers may ave won off that spin - we will never know - I wouldn't be allowed to stop after it has spun so why should they be she actively choose it - if I was subsequently shown to be not who I said I was then they would just not pay out - and given the high level checks they make for a withdrawl how would I bypass that. Mid spin is not the time to stop it. They've admitted it n writing. It's resolved. I'm not 'up' as a result. Would you sell your bets? If so why gamble? I didn't get the spin I wanted.

Anyway, it's resolved.
 

dunover

Unofficial T&C's Editor
Staff member
webmeister
PABnonaccred
PABnononaccred
CAG
mm3
Joined
May 22, 2012
Location
the bus shelter, opposite GCHQ Benhall
Well with your £100 you've got 11.1/1 on your £9. Chances are it would have been less. Even if the casino had disconnected you deliberately mid-spin, it should still have not taken the bet amount or resolved it when you were allowed back. I'd be happy with the way they've dealt with it . No foul. I'm glad you've accepted it all now. Good luck.
 

ChopleyIOM

Hearthstone Addict
webby
Joined
Mar 25, 2012
Location
IOM
No it wasn't a disconnect - they actively chose at that point to temporarily close my account because apparently my IP changed - I'm on a mobile device. They apparently wanted to make sure someone else wasn't playing on my account. They dose to do this mid spin. I then contacted them and they checked me and reopened it. But the spin which had £9 on numbers may ave won off that spin - we will never know - I wouldn't be allowed to stop after it has spun so why should they be she actively choose it - if I was subsequently shown to be not who I said I was then they would just not pay out - and given the high level checks they make for a withdrawl how would I bypass that. Mid spin is not the time to stop it. They've admitted it n writing. It's resolved. I'm not 'up' as a result. Would you sell your bets? If so why gamble? I didn't get the spin I wanted.

Anyway, it's resolved.

So just so we're clear on this.

1) The casino took a standard precautionary measure against what they thought might be account fraud/hacking (IP changing mid-session).

2) They've admitted that they did it in a bit of a cack-handed way (stopping play mid-spin).

3) They've made a goodwill payment of £100 as a result.

4) You never lost any money as a result of what they did (the bet was simply never placed).

I do have some sympathy with your starting position on this thread, which is that a casino offering a mobile games platform should be well aware that an IP address can change (and change regularly) as you bounce around mobile operator networks in the UK, and as such Betsafe's actions could certainly be seen as both annoying and failing to understand the nuances of the games platform they're offering.

Then again, Betsafe appear to have conceded this point and (1) quickly reinstated your account and (2) paid generous compensation.

I would suggest that you change the title of this thread yourself (if you're able to) or hopefully a mod will do so in due course.

Ultimately I can see both sides of the argument here, but frankly you went way off at the deep end chazmj6 and to start chucking chargebacks into the mix when the casino has effectively admitted they made a mistake and made a compensation payment is out of order.
 

vinylweatherman

You type well loads
Joined
Oct 14, 2004
Location
United Kingdom
So just so we're clear on this.

1) The casino took a standard precautionary measure against what they thought might be account fraud/hacking (IP changing mid-session).

2) They've admitted that they did it in a bit of a cack-handed way (stopping play mid-spin).

3) They've made a goodwill payment of £100 as a result.

4) You never lost any money as a result of what they did (the bet was simply never placed).

I do have some sympathy with your starting position on this thread, which is that a casino offering a mobile games platform should be well aware that an IP address can change (and change regularly) as you bounce around mobile operator networks in the UK, and as such Betsafe's actions could certainly be seen as both annoying and failing to understand the nuances of the games platform they're offering.

Then again, Betsafe appear to have conceded this point and (1) quickly reinstated your account and (2) paid generous compensation.

I would suggest that you change the title of this thread yourself (if you're able to) or hopefully a mod will do so in due course.

Ultimately I can see both sides of the argument here, but frankly you went way off at the deep end chazmj6 and to start chucking chargebacks into the mix when the casino has effectively admitted they made a mistake and made a compensation payment is out of order.


It should be a cautionary tale for both sides. Both sides acted in haste, having to repent at leisure. The operator was too quick to interpret a perfectly normal set of circumstances for a mobile device as a "hack", and the player was too quick to brand the operator as "untrustworthy" for a simple mistake.

The operator had to fork out £100 for it's mistake, however this is pretty light considering what players sometimes find their mistakes cost them.

An IP address can even change on a home broadband connection, due to lease expiry where the modem is left switched on for long periods.

In terms of randomness, that particular spin was no more or less likely to win than any other with the same bets, so it makes no difference that the bet failed, and had to be placed again.

If anything, the worst this proves is that operators often don't understand their own product, but this seems to be the case with many online casinos, especially the white label operations.

The worst I have heard is from an RTG casino, where they claimed a player "deliberately lost at slots" with a bonus so that the slots were "happy" and ready to pay, which they then "abused" by depositing without a bonus, winning, and cashing out. In essence, they stated "our software is rigged", and any operator who understands casinos should realise such a statement is more or less corporate suicide. This operator has been in the rogue pit here since I joined in 2005, and looks like staying there for the next 8 years.
 

dunover

Unofficial T&C's Editor
Staff member
webmeister
PABnonaccred
PABnononaccred
CAG
mm3
Joined
May 22, 2012
Location
the bus shelter, opposite GCHQ Benhall
It should be a cautionary tale for both sides. Both sides acted in haste, having to repent at leisure. The operator was too quick to interpret a perfectly normal set of circumstances for a mobile device as a "hack", and the player was too quick to brand the operator as "untrustworthy" for a simple mistake.

The operator had to fork out £100 for it's mistake, however this is pretty light considering what players sometimes find their mistakes cost them.

An IP address can even change on a home broadband connection, due to lease expiry where the modem is left switched on for long periods.

In terms of randomness, that particular spin was no more or less likely to win than any other with the same bets, so it makes no difference that the bet failed, and had to be placed again.

If anything, the worst this proves is that operators often don't understand their own product, but this seems to be the case with many online casinos, especially the white label operations.

The worst I have heard is from an RTG casino, where they claimed a player "deliberately lost at slots" with a bonus so that the slots were "happy" and ready to pay, which they then "abused" by depositing without a bonus, winning, and cashing out. In essence, they stated "our software is rigged", and any operator who understands casinos should realise such a statement is more or less corporate suicide. This operator has been in the rogue pit here since I joined in 2005, and looks like staying there for the next 8 years.

You're 'aving a larf surely? My God, how do these halfwits ever get to run a casino? Paranoid and irrational.
Many IP's are dynamic, like Sky and BT. Cable ones like Virgin/Telepest are usually static. Mobile comms of course change when the user is moving between open zones and different Wi-Fi networks.
If you uninstall an MG casino for example including the mgs files, and reinstall later MG will remember your username and password for log in. Unless you've run a cleaner, I can't see why Betsafe wouldn't identify you by stored cookies, regardless of what network the OP was roaming from.
 

chazmj6

Dormant account
Joined
Nov 30, 2011
Location
London
I don't know how to change the title but if the people able feel its necessary then I'm not standing in your way.
 
Top