Betphoenix experiences?

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Try flaming someone one more time and see what happens.



Well to nip this in the bud, you are part of a syndicate - you are playing with either a group of players or one or two who have multiple accounts, and Max and I have seen the proof for the past several months since your first PAB last summer.

You have casino accounts(s) that have been identified as fraudulent accounts at Lock Casino and Slots Plus - and now Bet Phoenix. The more you PAB the more info we have on you and your playmates (this would be your third), so please do.
I'll be working on the plugin to allow you to PAB sometime later today. I'd rather have you PAB instead of turning the forum into your own private circus. Thanks! :thumbsup:

@greasemonkey, the way I am interpreting this is...
He has now filed 3 PABs. With each PAB they are giving CM/MAxd/the casinos more and more information for which to hang themselves. Maybe I am interpreting this wrong, wouldn't be the first time...
 
LOL :rolleyes:



So one minute he is disclosing too little, and the next minute he is disclosing too much.

The fact is that ALL the facts will NOT be presented in a public forum.

The fact is that the ONLY way to have those facts reviewed by an Independent (depending on which members you listen to) arbiter in Max/Bryan via a PAB


I agree with all of that which is why I argued it would have been better for that process to have happened before so much information got revealed.

The fact is that those players don't WANT to PAB because once the casino's information is revealed they know the game is up.

It does look that way yes.

The fraudsters just love it when posters start asking questions that the casino can't answer, as it gives the impression that the 'big bad casino' is just making up reasons not to pay. They also love it when the threads get longer and longer and more people come running to the aid of these hapless victims, fearing that they may well be part of that miniscule % of wrongly accused players.

This is why I argued it wasn't in Bet Pheonix's best interests to reveal what happened in the way they chose to.



I'll defer to Max for a more accurate figure, but I would think that the percentage of PABs where this kind of gross error was made by the casino would be extremely low. Almost miniscule - the exception to the rule in fact. The vast majority of these cases end up with the player being caught out and exposed as the scum that they are....so if you don't mind, I'm going to continue playing the odds when it comes to this kind of issue.

This is very likely correct but the instances I cited did I believe involve quite a number of accounts. Also remember there are lots of other players who get caught up in these situations who are not aware of Casinomeister. While the occasions are few, when casinos are caught out like this it does the whole industry great harm. Just look at the Betfair fiasco for a good example of this. If we don't stand up to casinos on the occasions they are blatently wrong the whole industry will decend into farce.


The more I think about it, the more I believe that Max should shut this thread down until such time as a PAB is submitted and resolved. After all, at the end of the day my opinion and everyone else's don't amount to a hill o'beans as we don't possess all the facts.

I don't think the way this has been dealt with has been helpful to anyone I agree.



You should know, given your 3 PABs which I assume you didn't wait months to submit.

It's also interesting that some people who appear to empathise with the accused players are known advantage players......but I'm sure its just a coincidence.

Nifty one thing that has been consistant throughout this thread is your snipes and digs at other posters. At various times you have had words with Nicolas, the OP, Greasemoneky, VWM and now me. Infact your argumentative stance towards other posters has been the only consistant theme in this thread!

Nifty you are very cute in the way you couch your accusations I'll give you that. You certainly like to stir the pot and are very good at it. Sir you are a nifty operator.

But just FYI you have NO IDEA of my opinion of this actual case. NO IDEA!
 
@greasemonkey, the way I am interpreting this is...
He has now filed 3 PABs. With each PAB they are giving CM/MAxd/the casinos more and more information for which to hang themselves. Maybe I am interpreting this wrong, wouldn't be the first time...

I tracked down the source of Nocholas' quote (SBR forum), and it seems this fraud ring have already hung themselves by discussing in some detail exactly HOW they are taking money from sportsbooks. It seems they are systematically going through all the Betphoenix skins, multi-accounting all the way, and they are so ARROGANT that they even tell CS that they will "just come back with a different name" if their account gets closed, and another tells CS that they intend to "take them for 10K". The FIRST thing they do is contact support and haggle for the best bonus they can get BEFORE they open the account.

Assuming Nicholas can read, they are revealing a wealth of information about themselves, and their arrogance in that particular thread seems to have caused two "big cheeses" running rival "syndicates" to engage in a "pissing contest" - revealing yet MORE information. One brags that he has just taken delivery of "a container of Eastern Euopean women", so can "do what the ****** he likes with their passports". Nicholas now has to keep his eyes open for a sudden surge of interest in SPORT betting from Eastern European women playing from another country.

The casino fraud may be part of this sports "syndicate", and they may have gone through all the RTG targets one by one, and have now reached BetPhoenix, and will presumably have a new victim lined up now that they have been busted.

This looks like serious organised crime, way beyond the scenario of a friend getting a few mates to stump up their IDs to get extra bonuses (which is itself fraud), and scamming online gambling operators may just be one enterprise among many. Maybe the sums confiscated are of little concern to them, and they would rather keep their heads down than reveal even more by having a deeper investigation done.

I wonder where else they are bragging about these exploits on the internet, and for all to read.

Have they never heard of "Loose lips sink ships" from the early 1940's:rolleyes:

..... Loose fingers sink syndicates:p
 
Nicolas if we go right back to the beginning I personally feel you made a rod for your own back by disclosing way too much at the start and then later changing the tone of your allegations. The initial accusation was all about these players taking advantage of your bonus by playing in a certain way. It very much initially read that these players had not broken any rules but had hit big wins by betting in a certain way.

I know you then claimed some rules had broken but it did not help your case that for reasons of confidentiality you were unable to disclose them. But this to me did look like double standards since it was you that disclosed so much about these players in public in the first place.

Then as the thread developed the emphasis changed to it being a case centered around multi accounting and whether it was one or two people behind the six accounts which is something very different from your initial disclosure.

The reason why this case has got posters so exercised (sadly a point not understood by Nifty) is that a couple of years ago a very similiar thing happened at another casino near you. This particular casino played the fraud card and claimed they had been the victim of multiple accounts from someone who had stolen passports from a hotel safe. I may have forgotten some of the details but the case was quite bizarre and turned out to be totally unfounded. And in that instance it took Bryan and Max quite some time to get to the bottom of it as I believe they were badly misled along the way. Before it got sorted out there were a lot of innocent players badly out of pocket as I believe it affected a lot of accounts.

I don't think your initial post did you any favours atall really. If you had just said you had a suspected fraud concerning possible multiple accounts and you were willing to work with Max and Bryan on it then I don't think it would have fanned the flames in the way that it did. I realise you wanted to flush out the accused players by naming Pennsylvania but by only revealing parts of it you opened yourself to all kinds of speculation. Personally I don't think it's atall helpful naming the location as you risk alienating at ton of people from that state and also innocent players from PA will get nervous. I don't really see what PA has got to do with all this really.

I think being so bold and revealing so much in public is a high risk strategy. Posters here have got skeptical and cynical as there have been some bad instances of fraudulant behaviour from casinos too. And by that I don't mean the rogues but big groups like Betfair, a big MG group a few years back and the casino I mentioned above. Luckily the vast majority are fine and very honest but there have been a few very disappointing episodes too. It does cut both ways I'm afraid.

Anyway all this is just my opinion and ofcourse it's up to you how you want to handle these things. I'm not wanting to get involved in the case so much as wanting to look at the process. Just trying to give you a look from a different angle that's all.

I revealed more than I would have liked to because I wanted to inform players of what was to come. They had threatened with slander, and if they are going to go through the lengths they normally use to scam us, but this time for slander, I wanted to be preemptive. Give player's fair warning.

And my initial statement of the players IPs, ages, etc. That doesn't contradict my second statement.

To illustrate my point: "I think Jane Dole's 'funny looking tobacco cigarettes' must give her an 'allergic reaction' because she always has her eyes red".

Then you hear me say, "Well Jane Dole is a pot head". And calling me out for contradicting myself and saying Jane Dole smokes tobacco/weed. One was hinting at something, the other was more 'direct'.

I tracked down the source of Nocholas' quote (SBR forum), and it seems this fraud ring have already hung themselves by discussing in some detail exactly HOW they are taking money from sportsbooks. It seems they are systematically going through all the Betphoenix skins, multi-accounting all the way, and they are so ARROGANT that they even tell CS that they will "just come back with a different name" if their account gets closed, and another tells CS that they intend to "take them for 10K". The FIRST thing they do is contact support and haggle for the best bonus they can get BEFORE they open the account.

Assuming Nicholas can read, they are revealing a wealth of information about themselves, and their arrogance in that particular thread seems to have caused two "big cheeses" running rival "syndicates" to engage in a "pissing contest" - revealing yet MORE information. One brags that he has just taken delivery of "a container of Eastern Euopean women", so can "do what the ****** he likes with their passports". Nicholas now has to keep his eyes open for a sudden surge of interest in SPORT betting from Eastern European women playing from another country.

The casino fraud may be part of this sports "syndicate", and they may have gone through all the RTG targets one by one, and have now reached BetPhoenix, and will presumably have a new victim lined up now that they have been busted.

This looks like serious organised crime, way beyond the scenario of a friend getting a few mates to stump up their IDs to get extra bonuses (which is itself fraud), and scamming online gambling operators may just be one enterprise among many. Maybe the sums confiscated are of little concern to them, and they would rather keep their heads down than reveal even more by having a deeper investigation done.

I wonder where else they are bragging about these exploits on the internet, and for all to read.

Have they never heard of "Loose lips sink ships" from the early 1940's:rolleyes:

..... Loose fingers sink syndicates:p

Actually, they didn't give me much just like I didn't give them much. It may seem like it, but everything they said we knew about. And pretty much everything I said they know we know about. They could deny it vehemently or be bold, we know what is going on.

The only really good thing about that thread on SBR, is it can give a small peek to normal player's as what these guys are like. There are people that are much smarter and much more dangerous than the clown on that thread (and they will not publish it publicly)

Kind Regards,
Nicolas Johnson
Bet Phoenix Casino Affiliates Manager
 
I revealed more than I would have liked to because I wanted to inform players of what was to come. They had threatened with slander, and if they are going to go through the lengths they normally use to scam us, but this time for slander, I wanted to be preemptive. Give player's fair warning.

And my initial statement of the players IPs, ages, etc. That doesn't contradict my second statement.

To illustrate my point: "I think Jane Dole's 'funny looking tobacco cigarettes' must give her an 'allergic reaction' because she always has her eyes red".

Then you hear me say, "Well Jane Dole is a pot head". And calling me out for contradicting myself and saying Jane Dole smokes tobacco/weed. One was hinting at something, the other was more 'direct'.



Actually, they didn't give me much just like I didn't give them much. It may seem like it, but everything they said we knew about. And pretty much everything I said they know we know about. They could deny it vehemently or be bold, we know what is going on.

The only really good thing about that thread on SBR, is it can give a small peek to normal player's as what these guys are like. There are people that are much smarter and much more dangerous than the clown on that thread (and they will not publish it publicly)

Kind Regards,
Nicolas Johnson
Bet Phoenix Casino Affiliates Manager

From what they gave, they don't seem that good anyway, as there are a few holes in their plan, which is probably why they keep getting caught.

This was a fairly well known public forum, but some forums have "private VIP areas", and I bet there is much more information there because of the privacy (perceived?) from the prying eyes of operators.

If that "clown" says everything is fair in this "war", he won't object to you finding a "back door" into these private areas, and gathering further information.

If the others who are not such "clowns" are that much worse, then the industry is in REAL trouble, and with it, the honest players.

Our government has various schemes that will reward citizens for grassing on those out to defraud the system. You can get £500 for grassing on a benefit cheat, for example.

Maybe the casino industry should develop a similar scheme whereby a "tip off" is rewarded in some way, and confidentiality guaranteed for the informant. There seem to be a few players who know someone who is "up to something", but that have little incentive to grass them to the operator.

I also suspect that some players are approached with a view to recruiting them into a fraudulent enterprise, and are honest enough to say "no", but merely leave it at that.

Back in the 1990's, someone tried to recruit me into a fruit machine "syndicate", where they would supply the money, tell me which machines to play, and how, for a cut of the profits. I said something along the lines of "why would I, when I can play with my own money and keep ALL of the profits". There may well have been "sharp practice" involved, possibly even fraud (deliberate back doors written into the code, and exploited).
This idea was around long before online casinos, so there has to be a recruiting element in the online version.
 
I to have had my differences with BP, I was considered a "negative value player" and they closed my account. It pissed me off, but I do NOT and I repeat, DO NOT hold it against Nicolas. I do think he is a fair man, and do think he tries to do his best.

I also think, that what Nicolas says, holds some truth. Why do I think this, for the following reasons:

1-If Nicolas says there is information that points to this player being part of a group, he isn't lying about. I may have called him many things under my breath, but liar wasn't one of them. He isn't just going to make up stories, that is not part of his character.

2-If this OP is so innocent, why hasn't he started the PAB process? If it were me and I was damn sure I was innocent, I would be filing a PAB right from the start. Hell, I would fly to Germany personally to meet with Bryan and show him all my evidence to prove I was innocent.

3-I do not buy for a second the crap about the e-mail he "forgot about". If I was in contact with Maxd for anything, that would be the first e-mail I would check everytime I logged on to my computer. No ifs, and or buts about it.

4-Not only do we have Nicolas saying he is part of this syndicate, we also have Bryan saying that the evidence points to this. Yes, mistakes do happen, but from everything I have read, when that mistake does occur, they admit thier mistake.

To the OP, take it for what it is, but until you PAB, whether you think your already found guilty, it is worth a shot. Atleast you can present your case and let them see whether or not you are part of this. If Nicolas and Bryan have made a mistake, they are man enough to admit it. The ball is in your court, what you do now is totally up to you.

Just my 2 cents.

All the best,
LH
 
I to have had my differences with BP, I was considered a "negative value player" and they closed my account. It pissed me off, but I do NOT and I repeat, DO NOT hold it against Nicolas. I do think he is a fair man, and do think he tries to do his best.

I also think, that what Nicolas says, holds some truth. Why do I think this, for the following reasons:

1-If Nicolas says there is information that points to this player being part of a group, he isn't lying about. I may have called him many things under my breath, but liar wasn't one of them. He isn't just going to make up stories, that is not part of his character.

2-If this OP is so innocent, why hasn't he started the PAB process? If it were me and I was damn sure I was innocent, I would be filing a PAB right from the start. Hell, I would fly to Germany personally to meet with Bryan and show him all my evidence to prove I was innocent.

3-I do not buy for a second the crap about the e-mail he "forgot about". If I was in contact with Maxd for anything, that would be the first e-mail I would check everytime I logged on to my computer. No ifs, and or buts about it.

4-Not only do we have Nicolas saying he is part of this syndicate, we also have Bryan saying that the evidence points to this. Yes, mistakes do happen, but from everything I have read, when that mistake does occur, they admit thier mistake.

To the OP, take it for what it is, but until you PAB, whether you think your already found guilty, it is worth a shot. Atleast you can present your case and let them see whether or not you are part of this. If Nicolas and Bryan have made a mistake, they are man enough to admit it. The ball is in your court, what you do now is totally up to you.

Just my 2 cents.

All the best,
LH

This is probably what has made things so hard for us to trust betphoenix. These closures had nothing to do with fraud or "bonus abuse", whether in a syndicate or not, the casino just didn't make enough money from the player to make it worth them even having an account WITHOUT bonuses. It made it look like the casino was simply getting rid of players without having any real reason to suspect they were "up to something", so when they WERE hit by fraudsters, it looked like yet another excuse to get rid of players that weren't profitable, as too did the impression that SOME players had their withdrawals held up for weeks, yet others reported fairly prompt payment.

The punishment for the fraudsters multi-accounting and bragging in that thread was simply to have their accounts locked as soon as they were empty, which is the SAME "punishment" that was meeted out to the "negative value players".

I saw no suggestion that these "negative value players" were breaking the rules, not even the "spirit" of the rules - it just seemed that they had a very lucky run, and had their accounts closed straight after they were paid (which they wouldn't have been if it was to do with rule breaches or fraud).

32Red don't seem bothered by "negative value players", since no sooner did I trouser that £52K payout in 2009, I was offered the next Club Rouge bonus that came along, and since then (almost 2 years), I have more or less broken even, with them getting none of that £52K back from me, yet despite this I am STILL in Club Rouge, and today got the first of the April triple bonuses, and they at least won £75 back off me:rolleyes:

This experience from 32Red contrasts with casinos that are quick to get rid of players after a lucky streak, citing this "negative value" thing when they are pressed for an explanation. Purple Lounge did the same to a few players after the new owners took over, which made me take fright and uninstall the casino, since I am a "negative value player" with them too - only by 25K though:p

Where's the attraction in joining a casino that only welcomes you when you lose, but kicks you out after you win too much.
 
A Random Question

With all the time Nicolas puts in here why have BP not asked/ or been asked to be "baptised by fire" with CM?
Does the casino have to apply for it or something? Not real familiar with the process.

Seems like a logical move to me, especially since for once there is a very active rep. who visits the site.

Just Wonderin', Thanks!
 
Sorry Vinyl.......how much did you win again and where?

:D

I'm not exactly sure why you are comparing closing accounts due to fraud with those closed for other reasons. It's like comparing apples with artichokes.

The consequences were NOT the same for both - in LHofsdals case their account was simply closed, but in the fraud cases their winnings were confiscated as well. The casino has the right to close accounts for ANY reason, however stupid those reasons may be.

I certainly don't think the fact that they closed accounts of 'winning' players has anything to do with their trustworthiness in regards to the fraud cases - the casino made it clear to players like LHofsdal that their accounts were NOT closed due to fraud. If BP had come up with some kind of fraud-related reason then that's a different story, but they didnt so it is completely irrelevant to the matter at hand.

The reason many smaller operators ditch the 'lucky' players is because they are very short-sighted. It's crazy to kick a player to the curb for winning without bonuses, and its probably why these places will never be anything else but second rate.
 
Does the casino have to apply for it or something? Not real familiar with the process.

Yes, they ask, Bryan thinks it over, the ball starts rolling (or not) from there.
 
Sorry Vinyl.......how much did you win again and where?

:D

I'm not exactly sure why you are comparing closing accounts due to fraud with those closed for other reasons. It's like comparing apples with artichokes.

The consequences were NOT the same for both - in LHofsdals case their account was simply closed, but in the fraud cases their winnings were confiscated as well. The casino has the right to close accounts for ANY reason, however stupid those reasons may be.

I certainly don't think the fact that they closed accounts of 'winning' players has anything to do with their trustworthiness in regards to the fraud cases - the casino made it clear to players like LHofsdal that their accounts were NOT closed due to fraud. If BP had come up with some kind of fraud-related reason then that's a different story, but they didnt so it is completely irrelevant to the matter at hand.

The reason many smaller operators ditch the 'lucky' players is because they are very short-sighted. It's crazy to kick a player to the curb for winning without bonuses, and its probably why these places will never be anything else but second rate.

:lolup:

I wanted to ask last year how many free tickets he got to the grand slam of slots....I don't think it was clear after the 10th time:p

Well in "that thread", one of the multi-accounters posted a chat where at the time only two accounts had been closed, but one was still open. He was asking about yet another bonus, but when the CS looked into this, the player was told that his account had been closed. The player asked why this was not done earlier, and the CS said they coudn't kick him out whilst he still had money there, which is why he was able to carry on playing until such time as his balance was zero. This scammer did NOT therefore suffer a confiscation, but was allowed to carry on with his "system" until such time as his account was empty, which IS pretty much how the "negative value players" were dealt with.

It IS very short sighted to ditch players merely because they had some fantastic luck, whether this was with, or without, any bonuses. Rival went on a mass locking spree to get rid of their own "lucky players", and the fall out was that many players lost confidence there, and when the loss of cashflow that resulted from this started to affect the "less lucky" players with delayed payments, and operations going bust, even they started to leave, and these were the POSITIVE value players.

Almost every operator that has kicked players to the curb merely for being lucky has suffered long term pain as a consequence, and has had to fight back to win back the confidence of players.

Even if it has nothing to do with fraud, it makes the casino look very "trigger happy" about dealing with players, which in turn makes it easy to believe that those complaining are much more likely to be innocent victims of the "crossfire" from such "trigger happy" action, than accurately targeted perpetrators of fraud.

Now, as for tickets to the last Grand Slam, I am sure I have mentioned this befour somewhere;)

As for this year, one can only guess:D
 
Cabrai32's and harky68's accounts have been closed - there will be more accounts looked into, but that's a job I'm saving for Monday. It's nearly Beer o'clock on a Friday :thumbsup:

If there are any legitimate complaints against BetPhoenix, please either start a new thread and/or submit a PAB. I feel that Nicolas has been more than forthcoming trying to solve the issues that have been brought up in this thread - but it's over; this thread is finished and is being upgraded to closed.
 
I just wanted to add that since I closed these two fraudulent accounts down last Friday, I haven't heard hide nor hair from them via email.

That's a typical response from fraudulent players when they get busted out - utter silence.
 
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