BetPhoenix Casino

[maxd]

kbec, make them show you where you got a free chip. Check your account history and see if anything shows up.

For the record the account history clearly shows that a $20 free chip was received.

The money in question was a free, no deposit credit we gave to the player after the player reached $0.01 and was no longer playing for a few days.

The player's account shows exactly this: balance after the free chip was $20.01

 

[asianeyes]

I stand corrected then. Having a playthrough on winnings where all players bought in to the tournament is just wrong, IMO. Free Rolls, I can understand. Winnings from pay tourney's should have no strings attached. But, what do you expect from casinos in today's environment? It's going to hell in a hand basket.

Simple solution; Play your pay tourneys elsewhere where you don't have to wager your wins.

In agreement with you, takethemoney. If you deposit your cash and play in a toury and win, the winnings should be paid in cash with no strings attached.

 

[vinylweatherman]

For the record the account history clearly shows that a $20 free chip was received.



The player's account shows exactly this: balance after the free chip was $20.01

So, was it then a simple case of using part or all of that $20 free chip to buy in to a tournament, which is clearly against the terms.

 

[NicolasJohnson]

In agreement with you, takethemoney. If you deposit your cash and play in a toury and win, the winnings should be paid in cash with no strings attached.

Actually, per feedback (including that received here), we have changed our rules. We no longer require the 1x playthrough so long as the tournament didn't have a guaranteed prize. In the event of a guaranteed prize being offered, we do require a 1x roll over, but of course no max cashout.

Kind Regards,
Nicolas Johnson
Bet Phoenix Casino Affiliates Manager

 

[maxd]

So, was it then a simple case of using part or all of that $20 free chip to buy in to a tournament, which is clearly against the terms.

Yes, that's what the play record shows. All of it was used to deposit into the tournament, just a few hours after receiving it.

The OP's complaint at this time is that they didn't know about the free chip. The casino reportedly sends out email notifications of these, so that's the angle we're currently pursuing.

 

[vinylweatherman]

Yes, that's what the play record shows. All of it was used to deposit into the tournament, just a few hours after receiving it.

The OP's complaint at this time is that they didn't know about the free chip. The casino reportedly sends out email notifications of these, so that's the angle we're currently pursuing.

This could be the problem. Not all of us remember what our balance was last time we played, unless we have a policy of "cash out or bust". If the email was not read, or even received, the software does not indicate whether the balance is left over from before, or the result of a free chip.

My experience is with MGS. A free chip is more obvious, since on launch the window showing cash vs bonus briefly opens. Further, MGS software blocks the use of any part of the bonus balance from being used as fees for entering, or continuing, any of the tournaments. This is something RTG neglected to develop when it developed the slot tournament interface.

In some respects, it is "an accident waiting to happen", and it creates bad PR for the casino when it does.

A better way for RTG would be to NOT simply add the free chip, but issue a free chip personal coupon code to the player (I've had Club World do this, so it CAN be done). The player has to enter the code to get their free chip, thus will KNOW they are playing on a free chip, and will not be able to argue they didn't know it was a free chip in a situation like this. RTG now offers lobby access for promotions, so not getting the email with the code should not necessarily be a problem.

I did ask Club World WHY they issued a code rather than simply putting the free chip in the account, and the reply was that they wanted to give the player the choice of when to add the free chip.

 

[maxd]

Basically I agree, but we're starting to talk about two different things: the casino's free chip policies and how those might be improved VS what happened in this case.

As far as the free chip policies go I agree that they could be improved since the window of opportunity for problems is rather wide as things currently stand.

On the other hand the sequence of events in this case strongly indicates that the OP was aware of the free chip. Either way the OP is bound by the Terms since there is no debate that it was given and it was used as claimed. It's a bitch but there it is.

 

[reda]

not trying to venture to far from the issure on this thread but i have to say v weatherman you are correct . i was playing a while back and seen i had won 50 dollars somehow while i was playing and i didnt see that i had it anything worth that amount.. i thought id go to live chat and ask and lo and behold they had issued me a free chip while i was playing. i asked them to please remove it. had i not caught it i wonder what they would have done if i had hit a rj?. i originally was playing a bonus but it had a no max cash out limit. anyway they did go on a remove it. i ended up losing out in the long run but you just never know.

 

[NicolasJohnson]

not trying to venture to far from the issure on this thread but i have to say v weatherman you are correct . i was playing a while back and seen i had won 50 dollars somehow while i was playing and i didnt see that i had it anything worth that amount.. i thought id go to live chat and ask and lo and behold they had issued me a free chip while i was playing. i asked them to please remove it. had i not caught it i wonder what they would have done if i had hit a rj?. i originally was playing a bonus but it had a no max cash out limit. anyway they did go on a remove it. i ended up losing out in the long run but you just never know.

This is a very rare error on our side. If you wouldn't have contacted us, won and tried to cashout, we wouldn't deny your payout; it would have been clearly our fault, not yours.

Kind Regards,
Nicolas Johnson
Bet Phoenix Casino Affiliates Manager

 

[Kbec980915]

They admitted that they were at fault but all that they are offering is an apology. REALLY REALLY.....I think that I should be entitled to all of my money since there was something that the automated system wasn't working that day to let me know that they gave me a free chip so therefore I think that they should be held responsible and do the right thing and pay me. Is that wrong of me to think that? I really liked playing at betphoenix until this happened.

 

[vinylweatherman]

They admitted that they were at fault but all that they are offering is an apology. REALLY REALLY.....I think that I should be entitled to all of my money since there was something that the automated system wasn't working that day to let me know that they gave me a free chip so therefore I think that they should be held responsible and do the right thing and pay me. Is that wrong of me to think that? I really liked playing at betphoenix until this happened.

The records will show exactly when the free chip was issued. In your case, the casino says it was issued much earlier, and was already there when some months later you logged in & used it for a tournament.

These records will either vindicate or embarrass you.

 

[maxd]

... the casino says it was issued much earlier, and was already there when some months later you logged in & used it for a tournament.

Uh, not quite. From what I see on the player records the free chip was used within a few hours of it being added to the player's account. As I understand it it was player activity earlier that day -- their account balance dropping below a trigger point -- that initiated the automatic free chip deposit.

The casino said the player would normally have been informed of the free chip but in this particular case that did not happen due to a technical error at their end. They believe the player was fully aware of the free chip, its Terms, and knowingly used the chip in the tournament. The player says no, they did not know. Stalemate.

 

[Kbec980915]

Let me tell you vinylweatherman. I have proof that the free chip was supposedly given to me on August 26 11:36:29. I was never informed of it as I have stated in my previous email. I will provide the proof to whomever I need to. As to who you are getting your information from they need to get their information straight.

They even admitted that they were wrong but all that they can give me is an apology. I thought that they were one of the best casinos as far as paying goes but apparently they don't pay for what clearly was a mistake on their part.

Does anybody happen to know of any other forums I could post at regarding this issue?

 

[maxd]

@Kbec980915: I merged your consecutive posts. It's better if you do it all as one instead of mucking up the thread with little fragments like that. No a huge deal, just friendly advice.

 

[Kbec980915]

Sorry about that Max.

 

[Kbec980915]

I was just wondering if any of you have had this happen before. If so what should I do as far as my issue is concerned?

 

[De Beuker]

I was just wondering if any of you have had this happen before. If so what should I do as far as my issue is concerned?

There's not much you can do now I'm afraid.
If they decide not to pay you, they wont pay you.

Just click 'START' go to 'CONFIGURATION SCREEN', select 'SOFTWARE', find BETPHOENIX in the list and click UNINSTALL.

Worked for me after I found that my WR had doubled because I happen to live in the Netherlands.

 

[Casinomeister]

...

They even admitted that they were wrong but all that they can give me is an apology. I thought that they were one of the best casinos as far as paying goes but apparently they don't pay for what clearly was a mistake on their part.

Does anybody happen to know of any other forums I could post at regarding this issue?

I hope this is not an attempt to strong arm a casino into making payments to you. That's a good way to jeopardize your forum account.

People make mistakes - deal with it. You weren't properly notified - that's their mistake. You didn't take note of your balance, that's your mistake.

If someone steps on your foot, are they supposed to buy you new shoes or just say "I'm sorry"?

 

[maxd]

Actually I may be somewhat responsible here, at least insofar as the OP's question regarding places to post. The OP had asked me where else she might file her grievance. It seemed a reasonable question at the time and I suggested she ask it on the forum.

 

[Kbec980915]

I am sorry about the way I worded it what I said. I am just trying to get a point across I lost 1300.00 that I thought that I had won fair and square. I am not the type of person who plays on free chips and then tries to cash out on them thinking that they don't know the terms and conditions. That is why I was playing slot tournaments to avoid being credited with free chips. I am not trying to persuade them I just was asking if there was anywhere else I could post. I didn't think that there was anything wrong with that. I am just so disappointed at the way that they are handling this situation. Also one more thing I made it a point for them to zero out my account before I deposited to prevent something like this from happening to me.

 

[vinylweatherman]

I hope this is not an attempt to strong arm a casino into making payments to you. That's a good way to jeopardize your forum account.

People make mistakes - deal with it. You weren't properly notified - that's their mistake. You didn't take note of your balance, that's your mistake.

If someone steps on your foot, are they supposed to buy you new shoes or just say "I'm sorry"?

It's all very well, but surely the PLAYER also has the expectation that "saying sorry" for their mistake will be enough, yet the casino says it is not, and has decided to void the tournament winnings as well.

Whilst the player logged out, and hours later logged in with a hogher balance, can the casino rightfully ASSUME that the player has a perfect memory of their balance when they logged out, and thus INSTANTLY knew that it had increased later that day from a cause other than a deposit.

It seems it was the players caution in trying to keep clear of such situations that CREATED this situation in the first place, since it was the act of playing down a balance to zero that CAUSED a free chip to arrive between sessions.

Maybe a 50/50 split would be a resolution, with each side having made an error, each should bear half the burden. The win should be halved to $650, with each side thus paying a "fine" of $650 to the other for their error. This assumes both sides acted in good faith, and neither tried to "pull a fast one" because of this system error.

Unlike MGS, RTG software does NOT show players the difference between bonus balances and cash balances. This could NOT have happened in an MGS casino, whether or not an email had been sent or read by the player, and whatever the player did or did not remember from their earlier session. The MGS software would block the purchase of the tournament entry, and instead direct the player to banking in order to make up the CASH balance with a further deposit.

Even if a player wanted to, there is little help in the BASIC information that a player can access about their account, and even OPERATORS seem to have to "go to RTG" to gain access to such information. MGS players can access ALL such information in Cashcheck and Playcheck, and to a considerable degree of detail.

 

[Kbec980915]

That sounds fair enough to me. I would rather get some of the money and if half is what they are willing to negotiate then I am fine with that. Again I am not trying to persuade anybody either. I am sorry if it sounds that way.

 

[Kbec980915]

I have a question. How can you play slot tournaments on free chips because when you go to the slot tournament rooms when you go to the slot tournament rooms it says your balance is .00 because don't you have to play through the free chip so many times before you even able to cash out on it? Those are the rules on it so I thought. That are the terms on free chips am I correct?

 

[Kbec980915]

That is the information I have gathered from playing at other sites as well because I have asked the rules and regulations before I ever started playing them. Here is what Betphoenix told me that there are two different kinds of free chips coupon free chips and courtesy free chips. Never have I been told that there are two different kinds of chips. Courtesy free chips supposedly show in your real balance and you can't use them at your leisure. Supposedly that is what I received. IF that is the case why was I able to use them on slot tournaments. I saved all of the chat sessions I had regarding this issue.

 

[vinylweatherman]

That is the information I have gathered from playing at other sites as well because I have asked the rules and regulations before I ever started playing them. Here is what Betphoenix told me that there are two different kinds of free chips coupon free chips and courtesy free chips. Never have I been told that there are two different kinds of chips. Courtesy free chips supposedly show in your real balance and you can't use them at your leisure. Supposedly that is what I received. IF that is the case why was I able to use them on slot tournaments. I saved all of the chat sessions I had regarding this issue.

You've answered your own question. The software DOES protect players from being able to make such a mistake, but the CASINO has been lazy in the way it handles the latter type of free chip. They have added it as real money, rather than through a coupon. There is NO reason why they cannot issue a coupon for the free chip to the player, since other RTG casinos have done EXACTLY this. Not only does this sloppiness prevent the normal software based protection against misusing a free chip, but it also PREVENTS the player from using the meter in the cashier to keep a check on their progress towards WR. Add all this to the fact that this free chip is added on a purely arbitrary basis to a player's account, and the specific error in this case that meant the player was NOT sent the email informing them of this free chip, I'm afraid simply saying "sorry" isn't good enough. The player has suffered actual loss due to both sloppy policy and technical errors on the part of the casino. Whilst the player might have been more aware that the balance had changed, the player is also entitled to TRUST THE SOFTWARE to get it right, and NOT have to second guess and double check every time they want to play a game, play a tournament, or withdraw funds.

This shows again that the RTG platform is inadequate for providing these additional features in an environment where players can rely on all the various software checks and balances to work as documented. It's all down to RTG operators "bodging" their way past the software shortcomings in order to give the additional functionality. They need to get back to RTG and ask them to integrate these features into the software, so that they can offer different classes of free chips, and impose usage restrictions, which work with the features already provided in the software so that players are offered a CONSISTENT approach to managing bonuses and the restrictions that apply.

The failure to do so in this case has lead to a negative player experience that has been SHARED, and this worries other players because they now know that they DO have to be constantly on their guard, double checking and second guessing, just in case they too have been a victim of an unfortunate coincidence that will lead them blindly into doing something that results in a large win being confiscated.

Confiscating winnings is about the WORST thing a casino can do to a player, yet it seems some casinos have a casual attitude to this practice, confiscating winnings "just because they can", under the rules, rather than using it as a last resort against the determined fraudster.