Betfred have taken everything because I used my friend's card

[jasonuk]

I've been in contact with betfred throughout this period generally waiting weeks in-between emails . I was only issued my Dl a few weeks ago
It took months just to get that sent

They shouldn't have been dragging it out for so long, but I believe that would be a valid reason for a delayed ADR. So what I said about timelines doesn't apply in this case.

Just quickly please
If AML checks are triggered at withdrawal why wasn't it triggered when I withdraw 8k the previous day. If checks where done then we wouldn't be having this conversation and I'd still have hair

It will depend on how much information you have already sent to them - the larger deposits and that withdrawal trigger CDD/AML checks. As Mark discusses above, it is then up to the operator to interpret the UKGC guidelines and apply them to their business (the rules have recently been clarified - but obviously do not apply retroactively to a situation from 2023).

It should be noted that a CDD/AML check does not necessarily result in a paperwork request - but that scenario tends to apply to smaller depositors who win big or somebody who has already jumped through sufficient hoops previously. For a larger depositor, you will quickly start hitting those plus responsible gambling checks (that will require proof of income, funds, or however else you can sustain your gambling at the current deposit level).

You have been pretty up front about the volume and size of deposits - so it's curious how Betfred haven't slammed the brakes on sooner. Whether someone has genuinely messed up (in a big way), or cynically they've ignored the guidelines and it has come back to haunt them.

The UKGC has issued fines to licensees for similar behaviour in the past, but the fines are not a big enough deterrent and you could argue they consider it a cost of doing business. That doesn't influence your case in any way, but it's useful background knowledge to be aware of.

 

[simon3311]

They shouldn't have been dragging it out for so long, but I believe that would be a valid reason for a delayed ADR. So what I said about timelines doesn't apply in this case.


It will depend on how much information you have already sent to them - the larger deposits and that withdrawal trigger CDD/AML checks. As Mark discusses above, it is then up to the operator to interpret the UKGC guidelines and apply them to their business (the rules have recently been clarified - but obviously do not apply retroactively to a situation from 2023).

It should be noted that a CDD/AML check does not necessarily result in a paperwork request - but that scenario tends to apply to smaller depositors who win big or somebody who has already jumped through sufficient hoops previously. For a larger depositor, you will quickly start hitting those plus responsible gambling checks (that will require proof of income, funds, or however else you can sustain your gambling at the current deposit level).

You have been pretty up front about the volume and size of deposits - so it's curious how Betfred haven't slammed the brakes on sooner. Whether someone has genuinely messed up (in a big way), or cynically they've ignored the guidelines and it has come back to haunt them.

The UKGC has issued fines to licensees for similar behaviour in the past, but the fines are not a big enough deterrent and you could argue they consider it a cost of doing business. That doesn't influence your case in any way, but it's useful background knowledge to be aware of.

Thankyou for your response.
I've just provided the transaction history of my transfers to the account card I used . Just to eliminate any fraudulent views.
Not that anypoint fraud was mentioned or reported.
Just frustrating how this has been dealt with and to be honest I don't normally deposit large amounts and could nt afford to lose that much in 1 weekend .
It's the fact i only won pretty much the amount I had deposited and have only requested my deposits back so in theory they are still 6k in profit.
Really appreciate your time and information you've provided.

 

[simon3311]

Thankyou for your response.
I've just provided the transaction history of my transfers to the account card I used . Just to eliminate any fraudulent views.
Not that anypoint fraud was mentioned or reported.
Just frustrating how this has been dealt with and to be honest I don't normally deposit large amounts and could nt afford to lose that much in 1 weekend .
It's the fact i only won pretty much the amount I had deposited and have only requested my deposits back so in theory they are still 6k in profit.
Really appreciate your time and information you've provided.

 

[jasonuk]

Not sure if there was supposed to be more to your last message - you've got the quoted text (from the message before) but nothing else appeared.

 

[simon3311]

Hey Simon,

I don’t want to get into specifics and I’m obviously not linked to the company you played with but as a general rule operators are expected to look at players in more detail at certain levels.

Some are total deposits, some are total withdrawals and the some are aggregated sum of deposits and withdrawals. Loss amounts or win amounts are also considered for these thresholds which is in line with guidance.

These are business set thresholds before they complete the required additional due diligence on a player. Operators have different thresholds of what that looks like for different reasons but for example if an operator sets a limit of £5k transactions (deposits and withdrawals, a theoretical amount) then if you deposit £5 and withdraw £4995 then you’ve hit that threshold.

Most complaints on here are from players who say “they only asked me for my documents when I withdrew” but the reality is those are the only ones we hear of as because when players are asked when they deposit it’s less of an issue as they just don’t deposit.

Hope that helps!
Mark

Little update very confusing would appreciate an opinion. My case is at panel awaiting betfred response.

Betfred have claimed that after my account was closed 11400 was refunded to balance my account I clearly never received this or is was never returned to the 3rd party card.
The last message/email I received prior to the compliance/complaints procedure was brutal email stating account closure and confirmation that any funds in my account or pending withdrawals would not be payable due to breach of terms and conditions and the refusal to conduct any further communication on there decision. And if fraudulent activity was and is the reason of there decision I very much doubt an attempt to refund a undisguised random amount based on my life time net transaction history back to a 3rd party card flagged fraudulent would be attempted

 

[simon3311]

Little update very confusing would appreciate an opinion. My case is at panel awaiting betfred response.

If there withdrawal T and C s state that EVERY withdrawal requested are Subject to security and AML checks what ever the requested amount which is why a 24 time frame is implemented.

Deposits aren't checked in the same way as we are all aware.

This is why my 28k attempt was flagged .

If every single withdrawal has to be managed the same way its pretty clear the 8k the day before that was paid should of flagged the same as 28k if the same process was actioned. So there AML checks ethier failed or where ignored
My point is if they were aware of possible fraudulent activity and where allowing multiple deposits and high lose the money I won should be part of the risk they chose to take when at any point they could of stopped it .
Do i have a valid point ?

 

[simon3311]

 

[simon3311]

Not sure if there was supposed to be more to your last message - you've got the quoted text (from the message before) but nothing else appeared.

Don't know what happened there

 

[5ta]

I have seen this issue before and I am 100% certain that the industry is TAKING THE PISS.

If you can't withdraw, then you can't deposit. Not play the oh conveniently card and convince the masses it's ok. It's not. Even if I am the only one who believes this.

UKGC or equivalent and courts should stick to the basic principle of a two way street. Not a two tier street.
Honestly, shame on anyone who thinks its ok for them to take the money but not pay it back.

Mate, if I empty my funds into the casino account with a wheelbarrow while smoking a fat spliff singing a rick astley hit and they accept it, you better believe how I am expecting my withdrawal.

Stupid ? The point is simple.

 

[simon3311]

I have seen this issue before and I am 100% certain that the industry is TAKING THE PISS.

If you can't withdraw, then you can't deposit. Not play the oh conveniently card and convince the masses it's ok. It's not. Even if I am the only one who believes this.

UKGC or equivalent and courts should stick to the basic principle of a two way street. Not a two tier street.
Honestly, shame on anyone who thinks its ok for them to take the money but not pay it back.

Mate, if I empty my funds into the casino account with a wheelbarrow while smoking a fat spliff singing a rick astley hit and they accept it, you better believe how I am expecting my withdrawal.

Stupid ? The point is simple.

Update

After IBAS contact . Betfred have now agreed to review the 3rd party deposits and how they where funded. Sent proof it was my funds awaiting response

 

[simon3311]

Update

After IBAS contact . Betfred have now agreed to review the 3rd party deposits and how they where funded. Sent proof it was my funds awaiting response

IBAS on hold until I receive a response from betfred

 

[Avernite]

Is there a reason you keep quoting your own posts?

 

[simon3311]

Is there a reason you keep quoting your own posts?

Didn't know I was doing that. Not sure what I'm doing wrong

 

[simon3311]

Didn't realise I had to delete the above before replying. Apologies. Technology not my strongest asset

 

[simon3311]

The highlighted part is wrong - because in some circumstances the withdrawal request is the CDD/AML trigger.

It's frequently misquoted because people see that withdrawals shouldn't be unreasonably delayed, and don't realise that regulatory requirements (ID check, CDD/AML triggered by a withdrawal) are genuine reasons for a delay.

On the flip side, operators that defer those checks until withdrawal are in the wrong, but the UKGC isn't punishing them for doing it so they keep doing it as a way to stealth reverse withdrawals.


Pretty much as we summarised 17 months ago - Betfred missed a lot of opportunities to lock your account down and investigate.




I don't want to be the bearer of bad news, but given your statement in the previous post I think it's important to add some perspective:

• IBAS accepting the case is the very first step (of many) in the ADR process.
• 17 months is a long time to wait to file with ADR - your additional rights start to erode after 6 months, and ADR can often reject claims more than 12 months old (unless there are extraneous circumstances, which there could be here).
• Given the problems relate with third party payments and possibly responsible gambling, there is a risk that ADR are not able to adjudicate on some or all of the complaint.
• As the amount in question likely exceeds £10,000 then ADR would not be binding on Betfred anyway. Although any successful claim may help with subsequent legal action if required (which is beyond the scope of this forum, and you would need to seek legal advice)

It's one step forward... but you've still got a long road ahead. I hope you can get it sorted.

 

[simon3311]

Thought I'd update the situation just to maybe help anybody else out.

Betfred after ibas contact agreed to view my statements highlighting that my funds where used to deposit and wasn't any fraud involved

I pushed even before my account was closed but my evidence wasn't wanted .
21 months later they found those documents sufficient evidence that only my funds where used .

The case is still ongoing but they have agreed to pay my winning but I believe thst was easier than facing AML failures.

If anyone has been unfortunate enough to use a 3rd party card and having problems.
I would advice you unless it's a value of money you value more than you sanity to just forget it.

Thanks for advice

 

[Avernite]

Thought I'd update the situation just to maybe help anybody else out.

Betfred after ibas contact agreed to view my statements highlighting that my funds where used to deposit and wasn't any fraud involved

I pushed even before my account was closed but my evidence wasn't wanted .
21 months later they found those documents sufficient evidence that only my funds where used .

The case is still ongoing but they have agreed to pay my winning but I believe thst was easier than facing AML failures.

If anyone has been unfortunate enough to use a 3rd party card and having problems.
I would advice you unless it's a value of money you value more than you sanity to just forget it.

Thanks for advice

Glad it's come to a favourable conclusion for you. Please take this as a lesson to only ever deposit with your own funds under your name in future, as you appear to have gotten very, very lucky.

 

[simon3311]

Glad it's come to a favourable conclusion for you. Please take this as a lesson to only ever deposit with your own funds under your name in future, as you appear to have gotten very, very lucky.

The way I've been treated and the journey I've undertaken to get to this point is a very harsh lesson I wouldn't call it lucky ill call it persistent when you do something not knowing its wrong its not wrong just careless and tbh the money came irrelevant towards the end I'm just glad it's nearly over.
.
Thanks

 

[simon3311]

Glad it's come to a favourable conclusion for you. Please take this as a lesson to only ever deposit with your own funds under your name in future, as you appear to have gotten very, very lucky.

Anybody careless enough to do what I did .
If you want a conclusion
Over 300 emails
Countless compliance and safer gambling hoops
I would stronglt concider your next steps.
If I knew this then I'd of walked away .
Really appreciate everyone contributing

 

[Webzcas]

Many thanks for keeping us up to date regarding your situation. Looks and sounds like you have finally reached a favourable conclusion!

But yes, when gambling online ALWAYS use your own bank cards or wallet account that are in your own name!

 

[simon3311]

Many thanks for keeping us up to date regarding your situation. Looks and sounds like you have finally reached a favourable conclusion!

But yes, when gambling online ALWAYS use your own bank cards or wallet account that are in your own name!

Not fully over I got the 16k winnings but 12k still not resolved.
Investigation ongoing

Also I was reading a case regarding ladbrokes in 2022 failing aml.checks and acting on problem gambling I haven't enterered conversation.
Do I just start a new thread would like advice you only really notice how much of problem gsmbler I was when you look into things

 

[jasonuk]

Thought I'd update the situation just to maybe help anybody else out.

Betfred after ibas contact agreed to view my statements highlighting that my funds where used to deposit and wasn't any fraud involved

I pushed even before my account was closed but my evidence wasn't wanted .
21 months later they found those documents sufficient evidence that only my funds where used .

The case is still ongoing but they have agreed to pay my winning but I believe thst was easier than facing AML failures.

If anyone has been unfortunate enough to use a 3rd party card and having problems.
I would advice you unless it's a value of money you value more than you sanity to just forget it.

Thanks for advice

Be careful of saying too much at this point, ADR usually requires radio silence during negotiations and it sounds like you are at a pretty pivotal point of proceedings. If it is resolved in your favour, I would still add fortunate to the list despite your persistence.

The amount of money involved is large enough that they may be concerned about court proceedings - and by untangling the money web they can either a) prove you were funded by a third party, which kills your dispute stone dead or b) prove you weren't funded by a third party, pay up and make the problem go away without risking a problematic ruling in court.

Fingers crossed for a positive conclusion.

Also I was reading a case regarding ladbrokes in 2022 failing aml.checks and acting on problem gambling I haven't enterered conversation.
Do I just start a new thread would like advice you only really notice how much of problem gsmbler I was when you look into things

You can start a new thread for it, but given the time elapsed your options are going to be fairly limited - as we discussed earlier in the thread ADR normally reject complaints over 12 months old (with exceptions: the previous scenario counts as one, this would likely not).

Also the act of problem gambling alone isn't enough to warrant a refund, the amount of self-exclusion fraud put paid to that concept a few years ago. So there would need to be a clear and obvious error from Ladbrokes, and even then given the time elapsed that may not be sufficient.

At least you are starting to put the problem into perspective, and hopefully you are getting help where needed - it sounds like a lot of money and the intensity of gambling advertising (both honest and dishonest) is putting a lot of people to the test right now.

[edit] I see you already have [/edit]