Betfair Bonus Fiasco

[sweiger]

I miss a official statement from Betfair here in this thread .

I'd be very surprised to see any official statement:

Betfair was a Casinomeister Accredited Casino, but they were removed from the Accredited section as soon as this episode began to unfold. Complaints at Casinomeister began to pile up, and Max forwarded these to Betfair's casino representative. He responded to only the first batch with a blanket response - again - referring to players exploiting the spirit of the bonus. He recommended that players contact the LGA if they had any problem with this.

Malta's LGA is one of the most non-responsive licensing agencies ever. You might as well complain to the mailman.

https://www.casinomeister.com/online-casinos/reviews/betfair/

 

[petro]

It is NOT the AMOUNT that matters… it is the PRINCIPLE…

That’s why I said; While I understand what you are trying to express here.
But your argument still lacks a sense of proportion.

I would like to add something further. We all seem to agree that offering the bonus was a mistake on Betfair’s behalf. Ask yourself how you would want your mistakes treated? Would you want to be punished for them? Or would you want them written off as if it never happened?

I already know which one I would choose.

 

[jetset]

I don't think it's a question of what the hypothetical 'you' would 'want' in a case like this - it's the real world of business, especially a business where trust is so important, and Betfair has made a grievous error of judgement in choosing to handle it in this way.

They would have sustained less reputational damage, and gained more goodwill, by taking their lumps and tightening up on their promotional design system.

 

[petro]

I haven't read too far into this topic but so far what it seems like to me is this; Betfair offered a promotion then about halfway through realised they had miscalculated then reneged on the promotion.

The only issue I feel that needs addressing here is the question of the losing players. Did they get their deposits back?

As it seems to me that if Betfair refunds the winning players deposits, they should also refund the losing players deposits.

 

[vinylweatherman]

That’s why I said; While I understand what you are trying to express here.
But your argument still lacks a sense of proportion.

I would like to add something further. We all seem to agree that offering the bonus was a mistake on Betfair’s behalf. Ask yourself how you would want your mistakes treated? Would you want to be punished for them? Or would you want them written off as if it never happened?

I already know which one I would choose.

WHY should they be allowed to have them written off, when this opportunity is NOT offered to PLAYERS, who are expected to carry the FULL COST of their mistakes.

Betfair should have ENTERED INTO NEGOTIATIONS about this, where there is every possiblity that they could have settled with many players, and the community as a whole, at a price LESS than paying the full amount to everybody, but one that kept their reputation intact.

Instead they took money from eWallets and bank accounts, confiscated winnings, and then said "talk to the hand", and went to ground like a thief in the night. They KEPT money from LOSING players, ALL of it - here they showed NO interest in having the episode "written off", and everyone put back to where they were before. It's like LOSING players bought the telly for £10, it was rung through at that price, but next month they find their card debited with £1000, not £10. Similarly, losing players lost whilst they were NEVER going to get paid had they WON. They would ONLY ever lose, or get their deposit back, whatever the other outcomes.

When this first broke, Betfair SELECTIVELY voided only the WINNING bets, allowing similar, but LOSING bets to stand. THIS is how adjustments created NEGATIVE BALANCES in players' accounts, which they then started pursuing with threats. This is hardly wanting their mistake forgotten about, and starting over. They wanted to KEEP the money from this mistake when it worked in their favour, yet NOT pay out when it didn't.

This made an already bad situation even worse, and is mainly what destroyed the credibility of their case to have this mistake written off, and be allowed to "start over".

 

[sweiger]

I haven't read too far into this topic but so far...

No, obviously not!

 

[raj]

Hi Guys

I have been away from the forum for some time due to work commitments.....having returned to read this I must say I am shocked and appaled.

Betfair were a large professional operation, trusted and respected. They have shafted their players , destroyed their reputation and rogued themselves due to an ill conceived promotion that they failed to fulfil. Do they not have qualified people in Betfair Towers, who look at the maths, the figures and forecast costs before approving and publishing such promos. It doesnt take a genius to work out this promo was heavily weighted in the customers favour.

I cannot really add much to this debate, their shouldnt even be a debate. BF should honour their promise to thier customers. VWM sums up my thoughts pretty much...individual players MUST NOT back down, they should issue court claims either through MCOL or higher courts depending on the amount.

BF CANNOT just dip into peoples bank accounts at their whim....all trust has now gone.

All I do know, and I am sure I speak for many players and affiliates, is that I will have nothing to do with Betfair again, and I wasnt even affected by this offer. The more that shun BF the stronger the message will be that there is no plac for this type of behaviour in the gaming world.

oh yes and well done BF for confiscating any winnings, what about those that lost money after participating in this promo.....will they be reimbursed their losses?? After all it would seem they were playing in a game which they COULD NOT ever win??

Its probably still not too late for BF to apologise, pay every one up and put things right.....but will they?? It doesnt look like they will does it.

Rant over...

Raj

 

[same_old]

I haven't read too far into this topic but so far what it seems like to me is this; Betfair offered a promotion then about halfway through realised they had miscalculated then reneged on the promotion.

The only issue I feel that needs addressing here is the question of the losing players. Did they get their deposits back?

As it seems to me that if Betfair refunds the winning players deposits, they should also refund the losing players deposits.

Hiya Petro,

What I think you may be missing is the amount of people who actually work in the marketing department at Bet Fair- I can assure you it wouldnt be any less than say 5-6 people.

They sit there an think of the next great promotion to offer the clients- As soon as this one was released you could see form the get go it could be abused to make a profit for the player. Now who's fault is that, not the players I can tell you.

Bet Fair are massive and I admit it was one hell of a stuff up but they needed to bite the bullet on this one and pay out the clients who were affected.

They seem to blame the clients for there own short comings which is just not on.

Plus the extent they went to to obtain the money back such as contacting banks of the clients to get the funds back etc.

 

[vinylweatherman]

Hiya Petro,

What I think you may be missing is the amount of people who actually work in the marketing department at Bet Fair- I can assure you it wouldnt be any less than say 5-6 people.

They sit there an think of the next great promotion to offer the clients- As soon as this one was released you could see form the get go it could be abused to make a profit for the player. Now who's fault is that, not the players I can tell you.

Bet Fair are massive and I admit it was one hell of a stuff up but they needed to bite the bullet on this one and pay out the clients who were affected.

They seem to blame the clients for there own short comings which is just not on.

Plus the extent they went to to obtain the money back such as contacting banks of the clients to get the funds back etc.

Someone said that FIVE people had to sign off on this promo before it was released, so this was FIVE people, ALL of whom failed to spot this very SERIOUS flaw. These were SENIOR people too.

 

[Rhyzz]

Petro what you're referring to is commonly known as a Rule 4 in bookmaking - an obvious mistake in a line which does not have to be honoured under gambling terms. Everyone abides by this rule, even arbitrators. Such a rule does not apply to a promotion offer since a player has no way of comparing it to anything else, therefore cannot be seen as an obvious mistake.

I'm sure plenty of places have offered reload bonuses with similar wagering conditions before, they just weren't hit as hard. Betfair would have a tough job proving that this was a clear mistake infront of a licensing jurisdiction.

 

[vinylweatherman]

Petro what you're referring to is commonly known as a Rule 4 in bookmaking - an obvious mistake in a line which does not have to be honoured under gambling terms. Everyone abides by this rule, even arbitrators. Such a rule does not apply to a promotion offer since a player has no way of comparing it to anything else, therefore cannot be seen as an obvious mistake.

I'm sure plenty of places have offered reload bonuses with similar wagering conditions before, they just weren't hit as hard. Betfair would have a tough job proving that this was a clear mistake infront of a licensing jurisdiction.

Given that 5 senior people signed this off, it will be seen that the offer went out as intended, no "mistake". It was RETROSPECTIVELY declared a mistake because of the OUTCOME, rather than the offer itself. It's the same as the player who seeks his money back AFTER having a bad run, rather than because he believed he was "ripped off" at the time of deposit.

Had Betfair NOT lost heavily in this promo, it would have gone out the following week with the SAME rules.

They need to be careful, as a court case might involve them being asked to produce some of their INTERNAL memos regarding the design and implementation of this promo, and this would probably reveal this was NO mistake at all, just incompetent design because they strayed outside their core business without the knowledge or experience to fully understand how such offers should be evaluated.

 

[jetset]

Good point regarding the management approval chain for the promo.

 

[daywalker]

Petro what you're referring to is commonly known as a Rule 4 in bookmaking - an obvious mistake in a line which does not have to be honoured under gambling terms. Everyone abides by this rule, even arbitrators. Such a rule does not apply to a promotion offer since a player has no way of comparing it to anything else, therefore cannot be seen as an obvious mistake.

I think you mean palpable error.

Rule 4 is a deduction made when a runner is withdrawn before the start of the event and after the market has been formed and only applies to live markets and not ante post markets.

 

[Mousey]

I just live in fear of the day that one of the bag boys from my grocery throws open my front door, and marches straight to my kitchen pantry, begins tossing cans of soup into a bag, mumbling something about the owner of the grocery thinking they lost money on the 2 for 1 soup sale and he's taking it back.

 

[Rhyzz]

I think you mean palpable error.

Rule 4 is a deduction made when a runner is withdrawn before the start of the event and after the market has been formed and only applies to live markets and not ante post markets.

You know for the past 8 years I've been getting those mixed up, I think i'm special...

But yes you know what I mean! Horse racing is one of those things I know about but don't really involve myself with, hence the school boy error

 

[petro]

It was RETROSPECTIVELY declared a mistake because of the OUTCOME, rather than the offer itself.

If what you’re meaning to say is that this bonus was not a mistake at its inception. Then what you are saying goes against all the rules of common sense.

I think I am done with this Betfair issue anyway. As I know that Betfair did not label this as a mistake on their behalf. What any decent person would have done in a situation like this is to tell the truth; that they made a mistake and go from there. This as far as I know Betfair has not done. Instead they have labelled everyone as bonus abusers and mentioned nothing about the mistake.

Betfair belongs in the Rogue section.

 

[pokeraddict]

This seems to have gotten quiet. Nobody has reported getting paid yet it seems. So....

1. Betfair has paid some people but were told to keep quiet
2. People have pursued this in the courts and have been advised to stay quiet
3. People have given up

Let's hope it is 1 or 2. Let's hear from some people that have prevailed sooner rather than later.

 

[jetset]

Their corporate woes continue.

From the Daily Mail:

"With shares of the international online betting exchange Betfair on Monday trading 33pc below October's flotation price of £13 at a low of 859p, a top management team led by chief executive David Yu saddled up for a City roadshow in an effort to stop the rot.

"They have this week banged the drum in the offices of old 'friends' Morgan Stanley and Goldman Sachs, the two giant US houses which were joint sponsors of the £1bn-plus IPO.

"The team's presentations must have struck a chord with investors because the shares have since bounced back. Yesterday, they touched 947p before closing 2.50p easier at 922.50p."

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[Nifty29]

I just live in fear of the day that one of the bag boys from my grocery throws open my front door, and marches straight to my kitchen pantry, begins tossing cans of soup into a bag, mumbling something about the owner of the grocery thinking they lost money on the 2 for 1 soup sale and he's taking it back.

NO SOUP FOR YOU!!!!

 

[Webzcas]

I've never promoted Betfair nor played at their casino, however I have been asked to meet with them, or should I say meet with the head of their Affiliate Program at the upcoming LAC.

I have agreed, and I know that other affiliates are meeting with them.

Hopefully the concencus will be that for them to start working with affiliates again, Betfair need to right this fiasco and pay out the players owed from this promotion.

I am also on the Round Table Discussion, Affiliate Panel at the London Affiliate Conference and no doubt Betfair will be brought up. If not, I will ensure they are

 

[vinylweatherman]

This is pretty interesting in that piece:-

A Daily Mail report that Culture Secretary Jeremy Hunt is planning a dramatic crackdown on online gambling firms which could lead to hundreds of foreign operators being forced out of the UK, had shares in online gaming groups pulling up lame.

Hunt apparently is planning to stop companies based overseas from advertising in the UK amid growing concern that millions are becoming addicted to gambling.

It looks like the free ride foreign operators have had since the new gambling act is at risk of being brought to a halt.

There are MANY adverts around now, not just on TV, but on posters, sports grounds (including players). Some TV programmes are also sponsored by casinos, poker, and betting firms.

If the government looks into this further, they may find out about the widespread ripping off that players have been exposed to, with little redress because the firms are based in unresponsive jurisdictions.

The current rules allow any whitelisted jurisdiction to qualify a firm for advertising rights in the UK. Maybe this could be changed so that firms have to have some kind of additional UK license in order to be allowed to advertise.


What the operators should REALLY worry about is the introduction of enforcement measures that will stop these firms from TRANSACTING with UK players without prior approval. Whilst it is likely to have no more success than the UIGEA, the CULTURE is different, and this will NOT be a blanket ban, but a TARGETTED one, which will allow players to belive that unlike the UIGEA, it really IS about separating the rogues from the reliable, and only letting the reliable firms access to UK players.

 

[The Dude]

I've never promoted Betfair nor played at their casino, however I have been asked to meet with them, or should I say meet with the head of their Affiliate Program at the upcoming LAC.

I have agreed, and I know that other affiliates are meeting with them.

Hopefully the concencus will be that for them to start working with affiliates again, Betfair need to right this fiasco and pay out the players owed from this promotion.

I am also on the Round Table Discussion, Affiliate Panel at the London Affiliate Conference and no doubt Betfair will be brought up. If not, I will ensure they are

You'll be wasting your time, Dave. Betfair's affiliate program is outsourced. They have no say-so in Betfair's policies and management. If Betfair thought this episode was serious enough to resolve, they would have resolved it by now.

 

[Webzcas]

You'll be wasting your time, Dave. Betfair's affiliate program is outsourced. They have no say-so in Betfair's policies and management. If Betfair thought this episode was serious enough to resolve, they would have resolved it by now.

Thanks for the heads up. I will email them back on Monday, stating that it is pointless wasting my time, if they have their hands tied.

 

[sambaEah]

This seems to have gotten quiet. Nobody has reported getting paid yet it seems. So....

1. Betfair has paid some people but were told to keep quiet
2. People have pursued this in the courts and have been advised to stay quiet
3. People have given up

Let's hope it is 1 or 2. Let's hear from some people that have prevailed sooner rather than later.

Court action will still be ongoing, it definitely won't have been sorted yet.

 

[jetset]

The threat to white listing advertising appears to be a credible one and is being increasingly picked up by UK media, quoting senior government sources and the Culture Secretary himself.

Months back the Brit government back then intimated that it might have to take action on offshore outfits accessing the Brit market by advertising yet avoiding UK taxation; they were clearly irritated by Ladbrokes and Will Hill taking their online ops to Gibraltar to get a more competitive tax deal. As it turns out, Gibraltar has subsequently hiked its tax trate, but it's still more operator-friendly that the Brit one.

All the reports currently going the rounds have senior government people suggesting that 'white listed' companies interested in accessing the UK market will have to meet the requirements of the UK Gambling Commission and take out a 'secondary' licence....the operators aren't going to like the additional costs, but it's a big market that they will be reluctant to let go, even given the wide nature of internet advertising potential as an alternative to bring in UK punters.

Latest report are suggesting this new regime could be in place as early as within the next two months - around the end of March 2011.