Betat SoW Request - 1 casino less on my to play list

[The Dude]

I was told a few years ago at the MIGs conference that Malta was getting ready to initiate this due to EU regs. Pretty soon you will have to show a source of wealth when buying a new TV or automobile. Just wait and see.

 

[lotusch]

Unfortunately, it is going to be good for the rogue outfits where players have no protection. Most people loath this sort of intrusion into their privacy, and will just close their accounts and patronize casinos not based in the EU or UK.

I have stuck to CM accredited casinos only Bryan and I will continue to do so.
It is just my personal choice to not share any of my financial information and thus a SoW is out of the question for me.
Any accredited casino that will not request this will remain to enjoy my custom.
I cannot forbid them to ask me but thank God I have then the free choice to stop playing there.

I will not waste my money on rogue or unknown outfits.

 

[colinsunderland]

Cheers guys)
But thats my point today i had a id check from casino euro , now please bear in mind not sow but routine check, ive had my id already checked via them & was one of the lucky winners to go over to malta april. My id has now been checked twice with 10 months, something is not right here. I sent id so i could fly figute that out ???

Malta based, nothing at all from any uk casino/bookie

These malta based companies also have soft searched my credit file, so i just dont believe it.

Ps captain rizk was struggling when i pushed him about a few things a while ago, at least he did try to help which was good.

I've seen William hill do sow checks as far back as 10-15 years ago, so extremely rare but not unheard of . I also know my local coral, which isn't busy, has a file of about 20 sow checks behind the counter .

Captain rizk also tried to answer my questions, which although he couldn't, at least he tried, unlike some casinos who ignored the question, or worse, lied .

 

[colinsunderland]

That's the public info released, the issue is, we get updated on what we SHOULD be doing And it doesn't always match what's publicly stated (

Not all casinos follow that though, I have deposited over £30k since April at one of the big casinos and not been asked for it .

 

[L&L-Jan]

Unfortunately, it is going to be good for the rogue outfits where players have no protection. Most people loath this sort of intrusion into their privacy, and will just close their accounts and patronize casinos not based in the EU or UK.

Agree, and from another point of regulatory requirements. This was my feedback to GamStop today. Not related to SOW/EDD requests. But related to player protection.

 

[goatwack]

I'd rather keep my play solely at bookies should that fateful day arrive. At least I know I my details are verified at multiple points in this country, and I'm not made to feel like Al Capone

No real point even playing at non-UK casinos if this is the prognosis, who wants to send their personal financial details to tinpot foreign climes??

And I'm not even certain I've broken the 10K deposit seal at all my casinos over the years, never mind one. So if that's the case I'd be the world's crappiest money launderer, working with such stealthy subterfuge over 6 years, with my £20 deposits, doing between 9-20p bets.

Call the feds!

 

[Harry_BKK]

Agree, and from another point of regulatory requirements. This was my feedback to GamStop today. Not related to SOW/EDD requests. But related to player protection.

How about we players lobby authorities to introduce mandatory SOWs for casinos, that any player can ask at any time? I am saying this in view of this case: Run of a lifetime , where the casino is clearly not capable of paying out a large win within an appropriate period of time. We are supposed to trust you guys that all is fine and dandy at your end, which in many cases it clearly isn't.

And the MGA and UKGC seals are supposed to give us peace of mind where this clearly shows that they don't mean a thing.

Who is checking the financial health of a casino operator? Most are a mesh of subsidiaries that makes it hard just to find out who is actually in charge let alone how well-funded a casino is. As mac72 indicated in the other thread, land based casino have to cover all their chips with cash, so we know exactly that they have the cash to pay out any possible win. We know nothing about the financial capabilities of online casinos.

 

[dionysus]

hasnt leaked to the Canadian side, at least for me
but im also someone won't jump through hoops to share my personal work/banking/financial transactions

our online OLG DOES ask for job description - i put in public relations and that was that

I had a potential landlord ask my work and income, and that was fine seeing as I do have to pay every month but when I sent my bank info (balance) they asked what's this? I explained, look, there's enough here to clearly pay a year (my lease)
they wanted to know why all the details were blacked out (transaction history)

because, quite frankly, how I spend my money is none of your damned business

anyway, didnt get the place lol - but fine what I got

 

[Sonict]

My SoW would be easy this year... It is from casino winnings. Unfortunately, it wouldn't pass as a SoW which it should! Normally, I wouldn't be able to deposit or play as much this year if I wasn't so lucky. I bet casinos would be amazed if I showed them my current financial status. They would likely all say "your account is now closed since there is no way you can afford to make deposits with the amount of money that you earn..." Then accept that my SoW is from other casinos then, silly! GRRRRRR.

This will not be pleasant if and when I get a SoW. :/

 

[MaltesePlayer]

Not all casinos follow that though, I have deposited over £30k since April at one of the big casinos and not been asked for it .

Then someone is risking a nice fine )

 

[lotusch]

It looks like pure random to me...
So if there would be guidelines as in crossing a certain threshold with deposits they must vary widely per casino...
Betat I used to play regularly until 2016, then changed casinos as Betat has not the biggest suit of slots providers...
Gave em a bash after 2 years, checked if account was still good and made 1 single deposit which resulted in a WD...
Lo and behold, got the request right away the day after...

 

[colinsunderland]

Then someone is risking a nice fine )

I don't see how that can be. They are pretty strict at stuff, so I can't see why they would ignore something like that. My Sky account has had over £200k wagering in the last 12 months, including betting and casino its close to £250k, deposits are around £40k. I haven't even had to send a driving license in to them. As I've had the account about 15 years you can see the lifetime deposits are well over the £10k limit. I've made withdrawals over over £10k a couple of times, and over £2-3k numerous times, but have never had to do a single bit of verification.
How come they don't do anything yet the casinos based outside the uk are doing SoW checks on customers when they deposit £20? Or worse, withdraw. I genuinely don't understand that. I get that KYC can be done electronically, not sure how enhanced can, but certainly SoW checks cannot be.

As I'm an affiliate for most casinos, I am not going to send them details of my earnings from others. Thats non negotiable. Therefore anytime a casino tells me I have to, then the account will be closed. I'm also not sending highly confidential information to an offshore company, many of which have security flaws (ie dodgy employees selling customer details), by unsecure email. And most certainly not the level they request, look at Videoslots earlier this year, talking about sending copies of wills if your money is from an inheritance, then refusing to answer questions about it, like wtf. Nope a hope in hell am I supplying anyone that information to anyone. If I can get a mortgage and buy a house with less information than a casino asks for, then the casino is asking far too much.

 

[lotusch]

Hi guys, just a quick update on this.

After my request to close my account I got a very nice e-mail back from Betat with an in depth explanation how the SoW request works and why it had been requested.
I was really pleased with this e-mail and it made my stance in this case a bit milder.
I cannot edit the OP anymore so I felt it was fair to post a little update.

We agreed upon a 30 day cool off period in regards to my request to close the account as I always have been playing here with great pleasure.
Also Betat always have paid my winnings super fast.

I am not sure if I will send in the documents so I would be able to continue playing there but at least I have a bit more inside information about why this was all put in place.

I just wanted to put this straight as Betat was always good to me and my rant has nothing to do with the way Betat has always treated me.
I never have faulted them on anything.

It is just this whole SoW thing that triggered me to create this thread.

Cheers.

Mark.

 

[Steviedoo]

I’ve been playing there and the cashouts are super fast. They’ve added quite a few providers since last year.



I hope Bryan @Casinomeister
reviews their status. They are still in the grey zone.

What’s it gonna take to get them out of the grey zone?

 

[aceking123]

Well lotusch how about you sharing the info on shy they all of a sudden required the info etc etc ????

 

[colinsunderland]

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just a couple of cases of a UK bookie asking for SOW documentation before the recent changes

 

[brianmon]

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just a couple of cases of a UK bookie asking for SOW documentation before the recent changes

A student with 50k losses and a 40k balance in their account, and someone else with a 20k balance.
It isn't quite the same as the Malta based casinos, chasing players who deposit £20 a week

 

[Harry_BKK]

How about we players lobby authorities to introduce mandatory SOWs for casinos, that any player can ask at any time? I am saying this in view of this case: Run of a lifetime , where the casino is clearly not capable of paying out a large win within an appropriate period of time. We are supposed to trust you guys that all is fine and dandy at your end, which in many cases it clearly isn't.

And the MGA and UKGC seals are supposed to give us peace of mind where this clearly shows that they don't mean a thing.

Who is checking the financial health of a casino operator? Most are a mesh of subsidiaries that makes it hard just to find out who is actually in charge let alone how well-funded a casino is. As mac72 indicated in the other thread, land based casino have to cover all their chips with cash, so we know exactly that they have the cash to pay out any possible win. We know nothing about the financial capabilities of online casinos.

@L&L-Jan I was hoping to get your view on my post.

 

[homerbert]

Okay, since basically I'm had a lot of headache dealing with new MGA directives and understanding them, and since I was the one who implemented internal procedures for it, I think I will try to clarify some things for my meister friends, and maybe someone will find it useful. Please note, post is based on MGA documents and instructions/ recommendations / suggestions together with my own thoughts based on a hell lot of experience dealing with AML / Antifraud / customer verifications.

Also, please note, I can speak only in regards to Curacao / MGA authorities. I never worked with UK market and UKGC (and I'm personally OK and happy with that ).

So, when we speak about EDD and the things which in the most case customers hate, we should take into consideration two different but most important documents we must request from customers: SOF (source of funds) / SOW (source of wealth).

To clarify:

SOF - we want to see it when we are speaking about money laundering / fraud / etc - and want to see how funds deposited in casino appeared on your bank account / skrill / credit card/ etc.

SOW - It's a little bit different. It is also can be related to money laundering and fraud, but basically it is more about player protection and responsible gaming (like if you earn 2k / month, and gamble 2k / month - you obviously have a gambling problem and we must make some actions to help you).

So, EDD is required to help operator to:

- Prevent possible money laundering , terrorist financing , fraud.

- To protect customers from gambling problems, spending too much, losing the money he can not afford himself to lose.

And here we see already one huge problem - I'm pretty much sure in like 90% of cases when you get SOW request - it will be more than enough to request SOF. It's much more easy for customer to make screenshot like 'I've topped up my skrill via my credit card, here is photo my this credit card, all good, it's me, I'm playing. This is about when we speak about ML/Fraud.

So what about player protection? Basically, with all my heart - I can't get how requesting SOW should protect customer...I request SOW from dunover for example, he thinking 'FU' and going in another casino. And another one. And another one. And another. And losing funds. Did I as responsible operator protected him from gaming problems? Well - no.

And here comes the MGA directives and rules, let's see from which customers we must request SOW / SOF.

Basically, MGA says that each operator must use scoring based risk system, which divide customers in different risk groups; for instance (low, medium, high). So customers who comes in High risk group - must pass via EDD including SOW / SOF.

How MGA thinks we must divide customers in groups. Well, it is based on:

- Customer country

- Customer used payment options

- Customer betting patterns

- Customer depositing patterns

I'm not really want to continue with it because basically each casino use their own system and divide customers as they think, but I believe it will give you some insights. Once you in high risk group - you have zero chances, you will be requested EDD.

As a final word, I can only repeat - IMO, SOW/SOF requests is good and gives operators guidelines how to prevent ML/Fraud/ etc. But when it is come to player protection from responsible gaming - I have serious doubts that SOW really help somehow. Much more better, imo, to contact such customers, remind them about your responsible gaming page, tell him that he can set deposit/wager/loss/session limits, he can contact special websites to get help. If operator really thinks that player is already have gambling problems - GO AHEAD AND SET HIS LIMITS YOURSELF. But do not make request of docs saying like 'okie, I did everything I could, hehe'.

So, to sum up, we see more and more SOW requests because:

- Some casino teams are simply follow what they was suggested by compliance team, without trying to think how is better to act with your customers.

- Some casino teams are really do not care - we have instruction - we request. Customers not happy - ah, it's not my problem, I get paid not for this.

- And most casinos I believe just covering themselves from any potential fines from MGA if they will have lack of player protection / AML.

Hope it helps someone, if you have any questions I'm happy to answer.

 

[homerbert]

@Harry_BKK Hey mate.

Basically, any MGA casino should have like a 'starting capital' - not sure how it will be on english, lol. It means like you should have bankroll, but I can't comment on amount.

And more than this, at any given time, operator must have on their bank accounts which MGA have access to monitor or funds in transit (like on skrill / neteller accounts for example) amount of money, to cover ALL player balances.

And I guess the problem is that like today my player balances for example 100k EUR. I had 300k EUR at my accounts. All good, I'm okayish operator. But tomorrow one player won 1kk EUR. And suddenly I need 800k EUR more to be okay with MGA.

It's all I know, maybe Jan knows this field better.

 

[Playford7]

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just a couple of cases of a UK bookie asking for SOW documentation before the recent changes

For at least the past 10 years online I’ve had some very largeable deposits, also 4 plus figure withdrawal at WH, laddys also coral.
I’ve never once encountered any issue.
Granted my big wins are sports related, can see how that would matter though...
Started to edge away from Maltese companies of late. (No disrespect to the decent ones)

 

[Mr Wild]

The bigger a brand is, the higher risk appetite it can have due to average loss will probably be higher compared to a smaller brand and the normal player will has less friction on SOW checks.
One should point out that WH got a 7M fine for not checking SOW and several other brands has got a fine as well for not checking this.

 

[colinsunderland]

A student with 50k losses and a 40k balance in their account, and someone else with a 20k balance.
It isn't quite the same as the Malta based casinos, chasing players who deposit £20 a week

No of course not and I wasn't suggesting that It was just to show that UK based bookies have been doing it longer than the Malta casinos have, as people seem to be under the impression they don't ever do it. It has been law in the UK for a lot longer than the last 12 months.

They do, however, seem to do it properly, ie when a customer is actually a high risk, rather than blanket emailing customers, or when they hit a deposit limit.

 

[Playford7]

No of course not and I wasn't suggesting that It was just to show that UK based bookies have been doing it longer than the Malta casinos have, as people seem to be under the impression they don't ever do it. It has been law in the UK for a lot longer than the last 12 months.

They do, however, seem to do it properly, ie when a customer is actually a high risk, rather than blanket emailing customers, or when they hit a deposit limit.

Sensible approach and totally concur

 

[colinsunderland]

The bigger a brand is, the higher risk appetite it can have due to average loss will probably be higher compared to a smaller brand and the normal player will has less friction on SOW checks.
One should point out that WH got a 7M fine for not checking SOW and several other brands has got a fine as well for not checking this.

I would also point out that all of those fines were for cases where they should have been checked, unlike some casinos that blanket email customers, and do it on withdrawal etc. Someone depositing £20 a week, is NOT money laundering. They should maybe clamp down on casinos that 'could' facilitate money laundering by not processing withdrawals back to the source of funds.