Resolved BETAT Casino bonus issue

[Jasminebed]

Igor, I hope you reconsider your decision to stop being an active member of CM. I know your recent responsibilities have taken you away from the primary face of BetAt already.

I do hope I am one of the rational people you were expecting to speak up. But since the OP seemed hellbent on replying to every post, I didn't want to see her jeopardize her chance at a PAB by making a comment at all.

It does seem clear she broke the terms as written. You know I have expressed my concerns to you over the prior term because it could be me too. You reassured me that this would not end up in a confiscation in quite similar circumstances, that discretion would be used, and I took you at your word and have been a repeat customer.

Had the OP PAB and failed (as they should have with the current terms), I seriously would have reconsidered my play at BetAt. I would not have been privy to as many details as emerged here in the open forum. I wouldn't have worried too much if I was privy to the grinding on autoplay.

Some casinos insist on strict adherence to every term, some casinos take things on individual merits and make exceptions. It is far more difficult to make that decision for a new player than one with an established history.

Players are always admonished not to post in order not to jeopardize their ability to PAB, but I think casinos that might be engaging in the PAB process should do the same.

While I fully understand the impulse to defend yourself (both for the OP and Igor), sometimes it is best to be patient and not respond to every "bait".

One piece of advice going forward.... If you are willing to reconsider decisions about flagged play, maybe just saying that your withdrawal is under review rather than telling the player it is confiscated might keep panic levels at bay, and a expression of frustration at delays does not impact your business in quite the same way.

 

[rshkrn]

Extremely sad to see Igor step away!!

I strongly hope he reconsiders or just takes a short break, after all the overwhelming majority loves you and wants you back!

If one persons mistake and negativity has made you quit, the praise and positive feedback of hundreds of members here should at least make you reconsider, if not get you back

 

[BETAT]

Hi guys,
I'm going to bow out of this thread for now as it's marked resolved, lest it become a prolonged debate. Know that I appreciate all the feedback and if you have any questions or concerns (in general of course, not this particular case) I'm no further than a pm away.

I'm sure I speak for others (as it's not my place to speak for specific people) when I say thanks regarding the thoughtful posts and well-wishes and know that Igor is never too far away.

 

[petro]

...a disgruntled player oblivious to socially acceptable behavior ruining their reputation makes me question what sort of freedoms one should have when voicing complaints in this forum. Members like this ruin it for everyone.

Coming from Germany CM, you would be fully aware of laws restricting freedom of speech.
I would wager my life that what people say can be harmful.
If that harm reaches a certain point it can be irrational not to do something about it.
In large amounts, verbal harm can constitute as something as serious as murder.

 

[Azzurri]

Hi all & Dalia,

I'll keep this brief as I explained this in segments quite a few times over now. Apologies that it took a while however the working day was full and i haven't a chance to appropriately answer every query and post correctly. I hope this will settle things.

The case -

The OP made a small deposit and proceeded to wager $1.50-$3 hands. We run a proprietary software which caters to most elements of play including bonus awards and monitoring. The software following bets higher than 10% of deposit and starts monitoring game-play. The reports are consistently fed as notifications to the relevant team members for decision making in varying colours and comments. The process is automated.

Unlike OP's post, the OP did not start with 30c and escalate, the OP started relatively big for her deposit 1.50-3 (and a few 90c bets) and proceeded to play until depleting her funds and while bonus was in play hitting a sizeable win with approximately 83% of wagering requirement remaining. The moment this was achieved, the OP proceeded to decrease her bets to 30c putting the game on auto-spin for the remainder of her volume. System watches these elements in an automated fashion and reports accordingly. I wont go into a debate whether there is such a thing as AP and whether the Casino has the right to condition bets and whether that should be controlled by game providers etc etc as it was discussed so many times previously and reality is some things cannot be technologically achieved. One fact remains, when there is bonus in play Terms and Conditions are to be respected. Our job is to make them clear and unambiguous.

The term specifically states:


Less than 50%. The OP has decreased their bet to 20% of the bet size previously and set the remainder of the WR volume (more than 80% of it) on auto-spin grind. The term is clear as day and the OP's betting pattern was in direct breach of terms. There are no if's or but's about it. By right, her bonus balance can be reversed due to a breach.

This is where human error comes into it. The person reviewing her account, saw an account flagged as red. It was red as her initial bets were greater than 10% and majority of her WR was grinded on autospin minimum bet. However this is why the machine doesn't make decisions but only notifications, because mathematics isn't everything. A more experienced manager would have seen that she is betting too small a bet to be deemed an AP and that such a big win already happens once in a blue moon, so to take that away is just plain wrong.

Which brings me to the first part of the term, which makes this case our fault due to it's ambiguity:


$1.50 is not a high value hand. $3 isn't either. It may be large in proportion to the size of her deposit, but in now way can that be considered a bet focused on "rapidly increasing bankroll". Due to relative inexperince and being 3 weeks into the job, this slipped the cracks for my employee.

The OP was informed her balance is to be revoked due to breach of terms. This was Saturday (or Sunday to be honest).

By Monday, (I or the CM review every reversal case on daily basis in a short afternoon meeting) I was informed of the case. However by this time, i was also informed that upon receiving such an email OP went on a rampage via chat and email threatening to never rest until we suffer. That same Monday, a message was sent to the Casino rep here, who was replied instantly, in verbatim:



and



Player was informed that day that her case has gone to senior management for review, meaning it's reopened and decision is not final a this point (obviously).

Tuesday (i think around mid-day to be honest) I received all information regarding the case, her bet sizes, full game-play and all chats and emails. A decision was made that

1) The OP should not have had her balance revoked. Such a term needs to be applied in appropriate measures.
2) The staff member who made the call was educated and
3) We realised that the term itself leaves ambiguity so the fault cant fall fully on the staff.

By visiting the site, you will notice that the term has already been changed to reflect that bets are considered high-value when above €6, while previous term defines that anything over 20% of the bankroll will be monitored.

What was also noted on Tuesday is that her emails are atrocious. The threats, tone and persistent behaviour toward the staff while waiting for our review is not something I will allow on my casinos. I request a reply to be formulated for Dalia and set a deadline that by Wednesday (today - and on the second working day since her raising the issue) the system algorithms that control the monitoring are modified to set minimum bet to be monitored at €6 (6 units of near currency equivalent value actually 6 - $€£, 60 NOK/SEK, etc), that Term is changed and that an email is sent stating the following:

1) That she will be paid the bonus funds and additional compensation for our mistake.
2) That we have changed the system flags and educated the team that made the decision
3) That we changed the terms
4) That her account is closed to to abusive communication and that CM will be notified.

This was to go out today as things are resolved in respect of the various teams efforts. In the meantime, the OP felt the second day is far too long and proceeded to post on this thread, the winning screenshots thread, our special CM promotions thread and send us an email stating she has done so and there is more to come. I find it so ironic and sad personally, that we reached a point when even just resolutions cannot be made due to peoples need to publicly slander a business in this day and age. Irony is, fo the OP to be paid, we had to do the right thing IN-SPITE of T&C's which she breached. We had to recognise the fault in our T&C's and not hide behind them, but strive to fix them - to honour the morality of our arrangement which stretches beyond what is agreed in terms. Terms did not help the OP, our desire to do the right thing is what resolved this scenario.

And knowing that, I've been, again forced to read the comment and speculations and frankly, blatant attacks on the business that keeps striving to do the right thing in the end, even in the face of error.

I feel the community is not what it used to be, I feel the notion that "the world is justly mine, I own it dammit" has run thick.

So with that in mind, The resolution as of right now is that Dalia, enjoy your winnings. They are well deserved.

As for the rest, i'll send the PM's to the ones that have been dear to me over the last few years with aim to continue being in touch.

To the forum, I bid you all an honest farewell, and I leave you with one of my favourite clips of all time:

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

BETAT Rep and BETAT_CM (Casino Manager) will remain to cater to any issues or comments that may arise.

Best of luck and may many winning spins find their way to you.

Igor

Thanks for the thorough explanation Igor.

To be honest, I'm surprised by your reaction to leave the forum, and think you should reconsider. I understand your frustrations, but I think you also have to look at the bigger picture. This is a forum, and a forum's purpose is to cater to debates and discussions regarding the topic raised. Provided forum rules are adhered to, this includes accepting the good, bad, and unfortunately, sometimes ugly.

I think your comments about the forum are a little unfair. Yes, whilst I agree some people may jump the gun, I think you'll find most of those members are new, and may not be fully aware of yours, or Betat's, previous reputation. Perhaps like Dalia's reaction, they see what appears to be a hard done by player, and quickly jump to there defense based on the information at hand. Is this right? No. Is it something that you should abandon the forum over? I think not. I think you are smarter and stronger enough to rise above it.

In defense of my response, and that of the members who have been here a while, I think overall it was fair. We read the op's comments, discussed and formed an early opinion based on the alleged happenings, then waited on your response for further analysis. Like I originally said, I was waiting on your detailed response (which we know you always give in these matters), as I am a loyal customer, and the situation was one that could have an affect on me due to the similarities in playing style.

My early opinion based on the information provided, was the op should be paid, and there were no evident issues in her play. However, I think like most experienced members, my early opinion clearly stated that it was based on 'alleged' happenings, and we eagerly awaited the other side of the story. Your side, which you duly provided, and unsurprisingly plugged the holes in Dalia's version of events. As a Betat customer, your response was exactly the detailed reply I was wanting, and knew I would get. You have to remember, whilst we attempt to remain impartial until all facts are clarified, we may also discuss our early concerns and opinions, as we too are paying customers, so you have to understand some concern may creep in. It's a natural human reaction to automatically, and perhaps subconsciously, put yourself in the op's shoes, due to sharing a common hobby, and/or similar past experience. The difference being, some members will comment after letting those feelings subside, and hence posting rationally, whilst some won't. This is the nature of forums, so I hate to see you take it all so personally.

I've been in high level customer service for a large portion of my working life, so I have dealt with my fair share of abuse, even swinging arms and death threats to myself and family, so I know how hard it can be sometimes and I sympathize with you. However, we continue to do our job and suck it up, because for the most part the appreciative satisfied customers, heavily out-way the bad.

Being the industry you're in, you will constantly have your reputation and credibility questioned and scrutinized. I'm sure this wasn't the first time, nor will it be the last. All you can do, is exactly what you did here. Clarify, educate, and restore that balance once again. I for one was happy with your response, and will continue to be a Betat customer. It's that type of response which makes you so good at your job, and restores that faith in Betat, when these situations arise. This forum needs you as much as Betat does, and I say this with all due respect Igor, but you need to get over the frustrated bat and ball mentality you are feeling right now, and soldier on.

Come back to us, and let this incident slide off the duck's back like so many before it. Like we all are, you are going to be scrutinized and evaluated for everything you say and do here, sometimes fairly, and sometimes unfairly. We've all been through it whether we like it or not. This is the whole premise of a forum. That premise is to discuss, debate, form opinions, change opinions, scrutinize, analyse, cry, laugh, and all in the name of a common interest.

Anyway, I hope you'll reconsider and return, as I think your good here, heavily out-ways the bad.

 

[mcgameboy]

I think we have a winner for an award here - most pathetic case of abusing this forum.

120 day suspension for forum violations - see you around Christmas.

Two things to take from this...

1. Lifting her suspension just in time for her to be here to receive her award in early 2015.

2. You mean Johnnygothebon is no longer the overwhelming odds-on favourite to win this award? Damn, he's gonna be upset when he finds this out. All that PITA-ful "work" for nothing.

Anyone fancy being the one that breaks the news to him? Nope....me neither.

 

[suzecat]

Two things to take from this...

1. Lifting her suspension just in time for her to be here to receive her award in early 2015.

2. You mean Johnnygothebon is no longer the overwhelming odds-on favourite to win this award? Damn, he's gonna be upset when he finds this out. All that PITA-ful "work" for nothing.

Anyone fancy being the one that breaks the news to him? Nope....me neither.

LOL Hopefully during Johnny's vacation he found another forum to haunt ........ and he won't be back.

 

[psmith2020]

but at the end of the day if the ops went of like that she should be blacklisted at every cashino as that behaviour in unacceptable as its classed slander and bullying I have a feeling she was only paid because of this

and I am saying my real thoughs at it will get snip pretty quick and banned but the people who know me well I get straight to the point

 

[chuchu59]

Igor,

I wish you the best in whatever you do and respect your decision to leave the forum. Its a tough place to be at even at the best of times and even tougher if you are the rep of an accredited casino as expectations are high.

It is not possible to please everyone but I dare say you have done a mighty job during your stint here and Betat should be grateful for that. Betat should continue gaining on its strengths ie well-thought out promos and normally stellar customer service. The recent addition of Netent games gives the casino an extra dimension.

 

[dunover]

Well, having been busy lately as you can see my post count has dropped dramatically but I've got to make a few minutes for this one.
The OP seems to find fault at most sites she joins, but that could just be bad luck - things do go awry sometimes.

There have been enough torches and pitchforks produced here to take out a small town and massacre the inhabitants.
Some of this may arise from members who aren't fully aware of Bet-at's commitment to fair-play and basically 'doing the right thing' and some from simply putting the boot in. I know from the terms that Bet-at are one of the few sites that make a serious attempt to define 'AP' which is a very broad term and would take pages to fully define in maximum detail.

I have played deposits before in exactly the same way as the OP and been paid without issue; getting lucky on a certain but not high stake and then playing the WR tactically in order to keep the winnings and cash out. We all agree, including Bet-at that the OP did not do anything unfair but despite the best efforts of the (now amended) terms the play was flagged.

Obviously most of us would PM the rep and resolve it as we know that if we did similar Bet-at are an accredited site with good intentions and would pay us due to the relatively low amounts being staked that were clearly not high enough to AP the bonus.

So, the OP made a mountain from a molehill and roused the mob, and as a result Igor et al had a day or so of incessant flak and had to resolve this in public and all the stress and animosity that entails.

Result? The same decision was reached, but in the process we are going to miss one of the most proactive reps on here, one of the people that enhance the forum and always have time for us. So we all lose.

Igor - take a holiday and please return refreshed and in the knowledge there are many members here that will douse the torches and blunt the pitchforks when the forum is being abused. All the best, hope you are back one day! :notworthy

 

[mcgameboy]

Well, having been busy lately as you can see my post count has dropped dramatically but I've got to make a few minutes for this one.
The OP seems to find fault at most sites she joins, but that could just be bad luck - things do go awry sometimes.

There have been enough torches and pitchforks produced here to take out a small town and massacre the inhabitants.
Some of this may arise from members who aren't fully aware of Bet-at's commitment to fair-play and basically 'doing the right thing' and some from simply putting the boot in. I know from the terms that Bet-at are one of the few sites that make a serious attempt to define 'AP' which is a very broad term and would take pages to fully define in maximum detail.

I have played deposits before in exactly the same way as the OP and been paid without issue; getting lucky on a certain but not high stake and then playing the WR tactically in order to keep the winnings and cash out. We all agree, including Bet-at that the OP did not do anything unfair but despite the best efforts of the (now amended) terms the play was flagged.

Obviously most of us would PM the rep and resolve it as we know that if we did similar Bet-at are an accredited site with good intentions and would pay us due to the relatively low amounts being staked that were clearly not high enough to AP the bonus.

So, the OP made a mountain from a molehill and roused the mob, and as a result Igor et al had a day or so of incessant flak and had to resolve this in public and all the stress and animosity that entails.

Result? The same decision was reached, but in the process we are going to miss one of the most proactive reps on here, one of the people that enhance the forum and always have time for us. So we all lose.

Igor - take a holiday and please return refreshed and in the knowledge there are many members here that will douse the torches and blunt the pitchforks when the forum is being abused. All the best, hope you are back one day! :notworthy

Not quite all. In fact, the one person who does not lose (to an extent) is Dalia herself. Because her BETAT account is now closed on a permanent basis, Igor would effectively be "of no use to her" now anyway, even if he had chosen not to leave the forum. And that is what really pisses me off. The rest of us, even those who are not BETAT customers, are poorer as a result of Igor's departure.

 

[243 lines=daft]

Having read the whole thread as someone who is not currently a member of BetAt it has made me decide to join.

It's easy for Casinos to come across well on here when everything is going swimmingly well.
In a situation like this where a casino makes an error it's very interesting to see how it deals with the issue. In every aspect here (transparency, professionalism, blametaking, action etc) they have impressed imo.

On a sidenote, there have been a couple of posters in the last few weeks who have posted intensely with a clear gameplan to repetitively use keywords and phrases for search engine purposes, riding roughshod over the culture of the forum itself for their own purposes and agenda.
I wonder whether CM should maybe look at having a harder line on this kind of behaviour in general.

 

[chayton]

On a sidenote, there have been a couple of posters in the last few weeks who have posted intensely with a clear gameplan to repetitively use keywords and phrases for search engine purposes, riding roughshod over the culture of the forum itself for their own purposes and agenda.
I wonder whether CM should maybe look at having a harder line on this kind of behaviour in general.

I've noticed this as well, the OP of this thread in particular - in one case using the casino name 10+ times in one post. I agree that keyword stuffing every post is definitely showing an agenda - and in the OP's case makes me wonder if they really are who they're portraying themselves to be. IMO the "Dahlia" who first posted crying about having some $100 winnings confiscated isn't the same "Dahlia" who's in Club Rouge playing $40K. But maybe that's just me.

 

[suzecat]

I've noticed this as well, the OP of this thread in particular - in one case using the casino name 10+ times in one post. I agree that keyword stuffing every post is definitely showing an agenda - and in the OP's case makes me wonder if they really are who they're portraying themselves to be. IMO the "Dahlia" who first posted crying about having some $100 winnings confiscated isn't the same "Dahlia" who's in Club Rouge playing $40K. But maybe that's just me.

It's not just you Chayton ........... if the words "WinPalace Casino" were used one more time in Dalia's first attempt at casino slander I was gonna barf!!

 

[asghan]

I think that this sentence explains her agenda very well:

I will not stop at anything over this and you can count on that and I will file every possible dispute and case against BETAT over this. I will never stop posting and warning people on all forums for the rest of my life about this

She was led by vengenace. Wanted to destroy Winpalace name(same with betat), and she used this "WinPalace casino" like you said, probably for SEO reasons, so that everyone could easily find her complaint.
She has even said that she is poor mother with children to make casino looks even worse. It was more calculated than emotional. Somehow she thought this is the best way to handle dispute with casino.

 

[suzecat]

I think that this sentence explains her agenda very well:



She was led by vengenace. Wanted to destroy Winpalace name(same with betat), and she used this "WinPalace casino" like you said, probably for SEO reasons, so that everyone could easily find her complaint.
She has even said that she is poor mother with children to make casino looks even worse. It was more calculated than emotional. Somehow she thought this is the best way to handle dispute with casino.

Yes, a real piece of work she is ...... I am thinking 120 days is not enough!!!

 

[mcgameboy]

I must confess that I didn't know about the Win Palace fiasco while the slandering campaign that Dalia had decided to embark on within this thread was gathering momentum (becoming toxic and highly agenda-driven might be more accurate). So I did take the time to read it.

Oh boy....I am not at all impressed.

Talking about poverty and being a single mother (hmm wonder why she is single? Maybe her husband fled the household for fear of being stabbed to death while he slept in his bed for glancing at another woman for longer than a tenth of a second? )

Then mentioning she is Club Rouge after making deposits totalling tens of thousands of dollars.

Then bragging about how she is on autoplay on the slots at a few sites and having a great time doing it?

Giving the impression that her gambling is a bigger life priority than her children.

Playing the pity/I am the victim/I am the pauperly single mom with kids card, only to conveniently omit the vicious, vengeful streak that lies within her hateful personality?

Making attempts at apologies, but then back tracking mere sentences later by labelling other members (whose opinions she sought) as "bandwagon bashers"

Not cool behaviour at all.

Nasty piece of work sounds like a pretty damn accurate description of her.

She will make a mistake soon enough. One that she won't be able to emotionally blackmail her way out of. Maybe then she will learn to show some humility and to address some of her serious behavioural flaws.

 

[bigjohn]

Ok, so it went on and on bashing Bet-At, wrongfully so to be sure, I don't think any purpose is served by going on and on bashing the OP or trying to psychoanalyze her posts.

The site admin. came up with what he feels is an appropriate cooling off time for her and that should be satisfactory for us.

We have since learned that Igor will be back, a little less prominently perhaps, but the forum will still benefit from his insights.

Another episode has reached it's conclusion and I feel Bet-At's reputation will only be heightened in the eyes of anyone who takes the time read through this thread.

Also of note is that what bothered Igor was not so much the OP but the regs. here who seemed willing to forget all that they have seen in the way this casino has dealt with issues in the past. I can't even play there but I have followed them enough to know there was never any doubt the OP would be paid even though she was in certain violation of a poorly written term.

 

[lausitzer28]

the Website is offline wtf is going on ???

 

[BETAT]

the Website is offline wtf is going on ???

Working fine on this end. Try again perhaps?

 

[PaaskeDenmark]

the Website is offline wtf is going on ???

Maybe bit patience would be the keyword and yes maybe nicer words?? Working fine here by the way

 

[Krrk]

Works fine from Finland as well.