Bellavegas(Microgaming) won't pay 20K

[silcnlayc]

Pinababy69 said: but I feel better for having said it

BREATH......in...out...in...out......now...relax one toe and work it to the ankle..wiggle the ankle and work it to the knee...you get the idea, yes?

Hoping you feel even better soon!

 

[Pinababy69]

Maybe some meditation or yoga Silc?

 

[spearmaster]

I tried the deep breath technique myself yesterday - it's been a long two weeks here and my body was stiff as a board from all the tension and headaches.

So I can vouch for the deep breath technique - it works.

(of course, the 4 Tylenol I took before going to bed might've helped as well!)

 

[The Dude]

...To rogue Grand Prive, on the basis they did not do their due diligence re jurisdictional gaming laws is the Meister's least finest moment, but you want to bust my balls and tell me about garbage?

Apparently you didn't bother to read much about what I wrote about why they ended up in the rogue section.

And if you have a problem with what I do, how about say it to my face - or email me your dissapointment - don't start making obscure cryptic postings. And like Spear said, if you feel you want to go off on some tangent unrelated to this topic, start another thread. Do not dis the moderators, or you'll find yourself out on the street looking up at the stars.

That's just poor logic. They (Casinomeister and ecogra) have different criteria. If they didn't, then what would be the point?

Thank you. We are different enties that have different functions. Period. amandajm, if you want to start your anti-eCOGRA crusade over here, you are in the wrong place, my man. You are free to take that to your website.

Caruso - one more thoughtless post like that i.e. rude, you're out of here. Sorry, but you have been warned way beyond enough concerning your writing style. If you cannot show consideration towards your fellow members here, you need to find another home.

Now everyone have a nice day

 

[suzecat]

No Doubt

In over 10+ years of onling gaming I have never confronted the issue of using foreign currency to gain an unfair advantage. I live in the US, if a casino tells me to use my resident currency, then that's what I do. Never thought "well, how can I get around that to get some extra bonus chips?" So I am better versed on that aspect of the industry and find yet another reason to view this forum as an incredibly useful tool. Kudos to you CM for providing it to us.

I have no doubt why a casino's T&Cs read like the Library of Congress. Evidently there are some people whose existence is predicated on how much they can screw with these same T&Cs to get some [undeserved] cash. Online gambling is supposed to be FUN..........why do some people get so involved you'd think their life was dependant on it?

OK, soapbox fell over.......time to go..........

 

[spearmaster]

The following chart illustrates the three categories of online casinos, at least from my experience.

Note that two of the paths lead to becoming a Rogue.

 

[silcnlayc]

Purty picture !

 

[spearmaster]

I might also point out that this graph can be interpreted differently...

Replace "recommended" with "winner" and "rogue" with "loser".

Then replace "honest" with "cautious" and "dishonest" with "reckless".

Then, in your mind, replace "online casino" with "player".

 

[thelawnet]

I give up...you are just f**ing rude Caruso. Was it really necessary to post that long a post picking apart every single word she said?

To be fair she did jump right in blatantly accuse someone of fraud, cheating, conspiracy and lying about where she lived, when as far as I can tell from the start of this thread it has been clear that the player gave her address as Las Vegas, and you can bet every dollar that the player won that if there had been any issue of fraud or lying that the casino could have used against the player they would have done so.

I think pre-emptively accusing somebody of fraud is a lot 'f***ing ruder' than replying to a post pointing out that it is wrong as caruso did....

Maybe I'm wrong....

 

[Let_It_Ride]

well said

To be fair she did jump right in blatantly accuse someone of fraud, cheating, conspiracy and lying about where she lived, when as far as I can tell from the start of this thread it has been clear that the player gave her address as Las Vegas, and you can bet every dollar that the player won that if there had been any issue of fraud or lying that the casino could have used against the player they would have done so.

I think pre-emptively accusing somebody of fraud is a lot 'f***ing ruder' than replying to a post pointing out that it is wrong as caruso did....

Maybe I'm wrong....

IMO not wrong at all

so thank you for you post, as some of the comments on here have been bugging me all day, but I just couldn't find the words to express myself.

Maybe caruso cld have been more diplomatic but it was not fair he was the only one to get his wrists slapped, suzecat was out of order as well.

 

[suzecat]

IMO not wrong at all

so thank you for you post, as some of the comments on here have been bugging me all day, but I just couldn't find the words to express myself.

Maybe caruso cld have been more diplomatic but it was not fair he was the only one to get his wrists slapped, suzecat was out of order as well.

It must be "fried suzecat" day -- and I didn't get the memo!

Seriously folks, I stepped up to the plate (once it was pointed out that many players use the "pound edge") and admitted my lack in this area. So here are mea culpas for where they are due and thanks to the others.

 

[Pinababy69]

Seriously folks, I stepped up to the plate (once it was pointed out that many players use the "pound edge") and admitted my lack in this area. So here are mea culpas for where they are due and thanks to the others.

And therein lies the difference. My problem is not with information or opinions presented, it's with the presentation itself. Anyway, agree to disagree on my behalf. And I'm done.

 

[Johnny Empire]

Just for information, Lake Palace paid me out a little under $1k in 3 days. Req'd withdrawal Sunday, paid Tuesday.

I am over 21 though.

 

[caruso]

Good post, Vesuvio. Also Thelawnet's remarks - funny how you can seek to blacken a player who has in fact committed no wrong in the alleged department without ANY reprisal, but forecefully and rightly challenge / ridicule the blackening attempt and you practically consign yourself to the slag heap. Ha.

Whatever.

Back on topic. This is eCOGRA's stance on the matter (posted here at their behest):

1. It is an isolated incident, that happened more than 9 months ago;

2. It is a known fact in this industry that no foolproof system exists to identify underage gamblers, and it becomes even more complex when trying to match players in the 18-21 group against the laws of hundreds of countries and states;

3. When the player was identified, the operator followed eCOGRA's instructions on how to settle the player (I've always said that I believe the operator may have paid the player if this was our advice). The action they followed is also in accordance with the UK Gambling Commission's proposed license conditions and codes, which does not require contributions to third parties;

4. Since identifying this player, we are able to confirm that this operator has tightened its controls around underage gambling; and

5. PwC performed an investigative compliance review on this operator in October 2005, and no further evidence of registered underage gamblers was found.

If there were multiple instances of underage players and a failure to address this, then I have absolutely no doubt that they would lose their seal. But to withdraw it based on something that could conceivably happen at any reputable operator, is unfair and unreasonable.

My comments:

1) I see no reason to not take eCOGRA's word on this.

2) Agreed.

However, since Andrew mentions it, there is a side issue here of Nevada law: why are Microgaming casinos accepting signups from players from states where online gambling is illegal?

It seems to me you cannot break one law, but you can break another - and it will be entirely at the casino's descretion which will be enforced - dependent on the nature of your deposting / withdrawing? I will take a guess that Mr. Slots Kanot Kashout from Nevada will never be found to be breaking laws, while Miss Twen Ti Kay, also from Nevada but only 19, will find herself suprisingly caught up.

Microgaming casinos cannot choose which laws they enforce. Either they enforce ALL laws or NO laws - not those that suit them.

3) Agreed.

But why did the casino even contact eCOGRA? This is what should have happened:

"Dear Miss 20K.

It has come to our attention, after performing routine security checks following your large cashout, that as a Nevada resident you are technically underage. Regretfully, we are at this point obliged to close all your accounts with the Grand Prive Casino Group. Your £13,000 GPB cashout will be processed and sent to you shortly."

What actually happened? The casino went crying to eCOGRA, looking for them to get them off the hook and out of a big payment (that's my interpretation, not eCOGRA's). eCOGRA were admittedly in a tricky position, and had to recommend the casino not pay.

So rather than everyone being happy, now the casino is rogued by a reputable authority, eCOGRA take a load of understandable flack, the anti-gambling hardonites in the US admin have cannon fodder for their campaign, and NOBODY is happy.

All because Bella Vegas went crying to eCOGRA and didn't just handle the matter internally and properly and PAY THE GIRL.

4) Fair enough. No reason to doubt this.

5) Aside from the fact I don't invest much credibility in PWC, fair enough.

I understand eCOGRA's position on this. I don't understand or agree on eCOGRA's positions on everything by any means, but on this I do.

The casino should have just PAID the girl and have done. Instead, rather than cough up on a decent sized debt they decided to create as much trouble as they possibly could.

At the end of the day, they've saved themselves 20K.

BFD.

 

[caruso]

there is a side issue here of Nevada law: why are Microgaming casinos accepting signups from players from states where online gambling is illegal? It seems to me you cannot break one law, but you can break another...

Just to clarify:

and it becomes even more complex when trying to match players in the 18-21 group against the laws of hundreds of countries and states.

Problems in this department acknowledged.

 

[jetset]

The message here as I see it is that identified underage players (either under 18 in general or in terms of specific T&Cs) are not going to get paid by any responsible and professional casino management, and eCOGRA should never be seen to be encouraging such a course as a responsible body.

Underage chancers are a growing menace and there are very good and obvious reasons for excluding them wherever possible.

I believe there were contributory factors at play here which certainly do not redound to the casino's credit in any way, but the bottom line is that this player registered when she was underage in terms of the T&Cs in force at the time.

We can argue about this until the cows come home (and I for one don't have the time to constantly revisit the topic) but the fact remains that this player took a chance, she was caught (eventually) and she is clearly not going to be paid.

Prolonging these arguments that have been combed over ad nauseum is not going to change that, or the opinions of those involved.

The debate over the other issues and inconsistencies surrounding this incident will be taking place in management meetings at various companies, I'm pretty sure. Casino managements are not as dishonest, uncaring or incompetent as some players would like to believe. Hopefully something positive will come out of that for the future.

Your oblique shot at our host here is unwarranted in my view. Your aggressive response to Suzecat's post pushed the limit without personal provocation and you were shown the warning flag again by the 'Meister.

Get over it.

 

[GrandMaster]

Just to clarify:

and it becomes even more complex when trying to match players in the 18-21 group against the laws of hundreds of countries and states.

Problems in this department acknowledged.

It can be even more complicated. The legal age for gambling in Malta for Maltese citizens is 25, for foreigners 18.

 

[caruso]

Prolonging these arguments that have been combed over ad nauseum is not going to change that, or the opinions of those involved.

Did you even read what I said?

This is eCOGRA's stance on the matter (posted here at their behest):

Anyway, these are all relevant, current matters. They will be "prolonged" as long as they remain discussion-worthy.

 

[spearmaster]

Did you even read what I said?

Anyway, these are all relevant, current matters. They will be "prolonged" as long as they remain discussion-worthy.

Discussion is worthy. Repetitive posts which add nothing to the thread are not worthy. Not saying yours was repetitive - just making a point.

eCOGRA has stated their viewpoint. Not all of us necessarily agree with it.

Got something new to bring to the table - by all means do so. But please, let's not beat a dead horse any more than necessary.

I urge people to vote with their feet - take your business elsewhere, if you do not believe you will get a fair shake from Grand Prive. It is quite sad that they have come to this - but if you saw my graph earlier in this thread, it is pretty clear - at least in my opinion - which category they fall into.

 

[jetset]

Spear said: "Got something new to bring to the table - by all means do so. But please, let's not beat a dead horse any more than necessary."

I couldn't agree more, and especially if exchanges can be kept at a civil level and relatively free of histrionics.

Here's another bit of sound advice from Spear; don't forget that players hold the power of individual choice:

"....take your business elsewhere, if you do not believe you will get a fair shake from Grand Prive."

 

[caruso]

Got something new to bring to the table - by all means do so. But please, let's not beat a dead horse any more than necessary.

I was asked to post the section I posted in quotes, or at least make the facts known. Quoting directly the relevant bit seemed the best way.

I said I would.

I did.

 

[jetset]

I was asked to post the section I posted in quotes, or at least make the facts known. Quoting directly the relevant bit seemed the best way.

I said I would.

I did.

Why the "mad" icon this time?

I interpreted the moderator's gentle hint about repetitive posting of already exhaustively examined detail and opinion as a very general observation that actually (if you take the trouble to read it) did not specifically refer to you.

I quote:

"Repetitive posts which add nothing to the thread are not worthy. Not saying yours was repetitive - just making a point."

 

[The Dude]

Okay, after 16 pages of discussion, this thread took a turn into a new topic which I've separated from this one: Foreign Currency Bonus Discussion which I've created here:
https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/threads/foreign-currency-bonus-discussion.11828/

Just trying to keep things organized

If you want to continue that discussion - by all means do so. But please reserve this thread for the Grand Prive underage player issue. Thanks!

 

[Linus]

The message here as I see it is that identified underage players (either under 18 in general or in terms of specific T&Cs) are not going to get paid by any responsible and professional casino management, and eCOGRA should never be seen to be encouraging such a course as a responsible body.

Wouldn't a better message involve not accepting an underaged player's wagers in the first place? Rather than simply taking her money when she wins?

Underage chancers are a growing menace and there are very good and obvious reasons for excluding them wherever possible.

I'm not sure underaged chancers are a menace to casinos, so much as casinos are a menace to them. At least that's the way the public looks at it. They're worried about casinos taking advantage of young people, not the other way around.

This would be a good example of what they're worried about.

I believe there were contributory factors at play here which certainly do not redound to the casino's credit in any way, but the bottom line is that this player registered when she was underage in terms of the T&Cs in force at the time.

That may be true, but she was in violation of the casino's T&Cs anyway, whether she was 19, or 119. If BellaVegas can seize Autumn's winnings, they can seize the winnings of any American who plays there.

She was, on the other hand, over 18. And this casino chooses to market itself to eighteen year olds. And, of course, she told the casino her true age - 19 - when she registered.

We can argue about this until the cows come home (and I for one don't have the time to constantly revisit the topic) but the fact remains that this player took a chance, she was caught (eventually) and she is clearly not going to be paid.

If it was clear she was not going to be paid, she wouldn't have played there.

Prolonging these arguments that have been combed over ad nauseum is not going to change that, or the opinions of those involved.

Whether anyone's mind will be changed, depends on the person's mind.

The debate over the other issues and inconsistencies surrounding this incident will be taking place in management meetings at various companies, I'm pretty sure.

I suspect the main issue in their debates will be whether or not they can get away with it. In other words, whether players will put up with casinos that will accept their wagers when they lose, but deny them when they win.

As long as players are willing to put up with it, the debate can only go one way.

Casino managements are not as dishonest, uncaring or incompetent as some players would like to believe. Hopefully something positive will come out of that for the future.

I have no doubt there's a range of people in the gambling business, just like every business. That's why it's so important that honest companies get rewarded, and dishonest ones get punished.

Your oblique shot at our host here is unwarranted in my view. Your aggressive response to Suzecat's post pushed the limit without personal provocation and you were shown the warning flag again by the 'Meister.

Get over it.

CasinoMeister has the right to moderate his board anyway he sees fit. How he chooses to use that power will determine whether the gambling community continues to take this site seriously as a "watchdog" site.

 

[jetset]

"Got something new to bring to the table - by all means do so. But please, let's not beat a dead horse any more than necessary." Spear - just yesterday.

So I'm not about to trawl back and forth over this ground yet again, Linus save to comment on your final paragraph, which I feel was unnecessary.

QUOTE: CasinoMeister has the right to moderate his board anyway he sees fit. How he chooses to use that power will determine whether the gambling community continues to take this site seriously as a "watchdog" site. UNQUOTE

This is in my view the best and fairest online casino and poker portal, watchdog, forum and information site in the business. That's a personal view after some years as a member here which in my experience is also held by many others on both sides of the player - casino divide.

One of the reasons for this is the huge amount of balanced work that the owner does for both sides, and the respect that his personal integrity and general sense of easy-going fairness generates.

So when you get flagged, generally you deserve it and need to back off a little.

That being the case, please do not imply that his conduct is anything less than the above in this matter, and that this might in some way endanger the regard in which his site is held.

That I don't buy. This site has been around for a long time by industry standards, and it's achieved more good things than most. I predict it will continue to enjoy wide support.

In the absence of anything new being presented in this thread, I am now going to take my own advice and move on.