Bellavegas(Microgaming) won't pay 20K

[suzecat]

Well, it's true that it's difficult to sue foreign corporations in places like Gibraltar and Belize. Courts need jurisdiction, in order to hear a lawsuit. As a general rule, courts in one country don't have jurisdiction over another country.

Also, since internet gambling is illegal in the US, no US court would hear a lawsuit over an activity that was illegal in the first place.

Finally, even if you did somehow get a court to rule in your favor, you wouldn't be able to collect on any judgment, unless the casino had assets that you could seize. Since the casinos are careful not to keep assets in the US, that would be impossible.


The casino industry runs on trust.


The only they have to fear is that people will find out that their money isn't safe with them, and that new players won't keep depositing.

Even though Autumn has no effective recourse, at least now other players have been warned.

BellaVegas was happy to advertise for 18 year-olds. They were happy to take Autumn's money, even after she told them she was 19. They're happy to take Americans' money, even though - according to their Terms and Conditions - no American is eligible to play there.

They only became unhappy when Autumn won money at their casino.

What's to stop them from becoming unhappy if you or I win money there?

Apparently, nothing.


"Nicky's methods of betting weren't scientific, but they worked. When he won, he collected. When he lost, he told the bookies to go f... themselves. I mean, what were they going to do, muscle Nicky? Nicky was the muscle."

--Robert Deniro, Casino

Linus, I couldn't agree with you more. Online gambling is a "sticky-wicket" -- a cyber version of the Old Old West. Trust is fundamental and players who come here and let us know their experiences (good or bad) do us a service that is almost impossible to repay.

 

[jetset]

Trust is fundamental and players who come here and let us know their experiences (good or bad) do us a service that is almost impossible to repay.

Amen to that!

 

[amandajm]

Forget the waffle.

Cherrypicking Nevada law will not wash.

Pay the 19 year old or nion kill the industry. I am easy either way.

 

[iataz]

One thing I gotta say is that I never thought I'd see the day where a Micro (and especially one with an ECogra Seal) would be rogued. Not even sure if I totally agree with it,.

I have to disagree Pina.. issues have been going on with these casinos for awhile now, this IMHO was just the icing on the cake.. and I can guarantee you that Grand Prive could care less if they are on the Rogue list or not..as I was told by Marc at one time that "they don't pay a lot of attention to what is posted at CM because those people that are posting are the type of players that the casino doesn't want and those players know why"

Fact is that you don't get "carded" sometimes UNTIL you win big. I've had cashouts of $500, $1000, even up to $7,000 and never been asked for one piece of ID, not even so much as a phone call to verify that I'm not a 12-year old (I'm 42). All too often the only time ID gets asked for is when a progressive gets hit or an amount say over 10K. I'm not saying that's right, just saying that I think it's very common practice is all.

The first time I ever cashed out at Grand Prive, Fortune Lounge, I had to fax them a copy of my id and a copy of a utility bill. Things must have changed in the past couple of years.

 

[amandajm]

Meister ruled against the player.
Meister ruled against the casino.
# Same dispute.

Of course they are not bothered by such a thing.

 

[spearmaster]

Trust me, Grand Prive cares about what is being said in here. They may not admit to it, but they are certainly aware that Casinomeister is the bellwether of the industry as far as players are concerned.

 

[ChristopherB]

for Suzecat

Suzecat- you are quoting the wrong statute. The one you quoted is related to cheating and cheating equipment. The correct statute regarding internet gambling are NRS 465.093. Here it is:

NRS 465.093 Placing, sending, transmitting or relaying wagers to another person prohibited under certain circumstances; penalty.

1. Except as otherwise provided in NRS 465.094, a person, alone or with others, shall not knowingly:

(a) From within this state, place, send, transmit or relay through a medium of communication a wager to another person or an establishment that is located within or outside of this state; or

(b) From outside of this state, place, send, transmit or relay through a medium of communication a wager to another person or an establishment that is located within this state.

2. A person who violates the provisions of this section is guilty of a misdemeanor.

(Added to NRS by 1997, 3319)

 

[Simmo!]

Forget the waffle.

Cherrypicking Nevada law will not wash.

Pay the 19 year old or nion kill the industry. I am easy either way.

Or put another way, you've broken the law once, so break it again Which begs the age old question, do two wrongs make a right?

 

[amandajm]

Prove the point. No more waffle please.

Casinos that abide by Nevada law are ok.
Any others that don't surely are not doing their due diligence according to the Meister right?

32red Restricted Territories
It is the responsibility of each individual to ensure that by joining 32Red they do not breach any local laws before registering. Please note that individuals residing in the following countries are not able to join the 32Red Casino or Multiplayer Poker Room, and play for real money.


# Gibraltar
# Hong Kong

I am easy to shut up. Just make sense of it all for the uninformed like me, as I remain unconvinced by what I see before me as fair.

 

[winbig]

Let's get the facts here.

1) She's underage
2) The casino didn't seem to care
3) She KNEW fully well that she shouldn't be gambling ANYWHERE. The rules were in the T&C. She tried (and succeeded for awhile) in circumventing these.
4) SHE ripped off the casino if you ask me. It was THEIR fault for not catching that she was only 19 beforehand. Therefore, she got to keep her previous winnings, and should NOT be paid one cent more than that, other than her current deposit(s) to "win" that $20k.
5) Don't give me crap about "Well, they have a sign that says 18+ on their website. Should they put a * next to it and have "18+ applies to every country besides USA"? Maybe so. But if anyone was to take anything online at face print *without* reading the fine print, they're just asking for trouble. Truth is, not every country is anal about gambling as is the USA. Sure you can go to war and DIE for your country (USA) at age 17 (with parent's permission), but yet you can't gamble till you're 21. But yet you can play the lottery when you're 18. How backwards and hypocritical is that?

 

[amandajm]

I think that goes for every player of any age from any jurisdiction, not just this 19 year old.

Is online gaming legal where you are Winbig? Do you gamble online too? I don't know the answers to these questions.

I get the overall feeling I should accept the word from a trusted source without question because they did good by me yesterday, or because I agree with them most of the time.

 

[suzecat]

Just for my own curiosity autumn12, I was wondering how you were able to purchase/play in pounds when you live in the US?

Autumn12 never responded to this question. So now I will get to the cheating aspect of this whole mess.

The casino requires players to play in the currency of the country they reside. Autumn12 lives in Nevada (USA) and should therefore be playing in USD. However, she admits to playing in British pounds. How can this be?

(ChristopherB I did my due diligence) and here is what Neteller says about it:

Please wait for a site operator to respond.
You are now chatting with 'Michael'
Michael: Welcome to our live chat service. How may we help you?
suzecat: Hi Michael, I have a question about what currency I can use. I live in the US.
suzecat: Can I purchase British pounds and use them at a online casino?
Michael: Before we proceed, may I ask your security question please?
Michael: What is your Mothers middle name?
suzecat: **********. I am asking because I have been reading at Casinomeister forum about a 19 year old who lives in Las Vegas that says she used Neteller to gamble online and deposited pounds instead of dollars.
suzecat: I thought when I signed up at Neteller that I had to use US dollars.
Michael: We cannot change the currency on your NETeller account. The only way would be to open a new account with a new email address and new currency.
suzecat: I do not want to change the currency on my account, I just wanted to find out if I, as a US citizen with a US bank account, can purchase British pounds and use them to gamble.
Michael: We[ll] the funds that would go into your NETeller account would be USD. If you find a merchant that will accept funds from a USD account and they are GBP than the conversion would be done for you at the time of the transfer.
suzecat: OK, so if a casino requires that you purchase/play in the same currency as the country where you live, then it would not be possible to use Neteller unless you were untruthful about your country of residence?
Michael: No, it would be based on your currency, not your country of residence, as anybody NETeller customer can choose USD, CAD, GBP, and EUR as there base currency to their NETeller account.
suzecat: Right, so I understand that Neteller would convert funds for you but they do not confirm an account holders' country of residence with a merchant?
Michael: That is correct, we do not give any information to the merchants as far as you personal NETeller information goes.
suzecat: Michael, is it OK for me to copy this chat session and share it with people at Casinomeister forum?
Michael: This may pose as a security risk as you have answered your security question with me and you have your account information in the chat.
suzecat: OK< if I edit out that before I share this information?
Michael: This is your decision to make, as you do agree to the terms of use when you register your account that sais you are responsible for all transactions made in your NETeller account.
suzecat: Yes and I will be very careful. Thank you for pointing out the security risk.
Michael: Is there anything else I can assist you with?
suzecat: No you have been very helpful. Thank you.
Michael: You're welcome. Thank you for choosing NETELLER!
Chat session has been terminated by the site operator.


The casino has also acknowledged that she was using foreign currency. The reason she gives is that pounds are worth more in bonus money.

Since she was required by casino rules to use USD she must have been untruthful about her country of residence in order to make the casino believe she was entitled to British pounds. I'd call that cheating (conspiracy to gain an unfair advantage).

My apologies to everyone who is shaking their head and thinking that I have gone off the deep end with this dead horse. Sorry, I just couldn't get this aspect of the thread off my mind.

 

[spearmaster]

She would have been required to produce ID to cash out - or at least should have. Other flags would surely also have shown that she was not in Nevada.

Though I agree that perhaps Autumn was taking advantage of bonuses by using the currency valued the highest, I actually don't see anything wrong with that at all. And I believe you'll find hundreds, if not thousands, of other players doing the same thing.

If a casino wants to limit the currency being used, they need to state this up front very clearly. Hiding this in the terms and conditions would be considered dubious, at least in my opinion.

amandajm - leave other casinos out of this discussion, please - if you want to start another thread elsewhere by all means do so. 32Red, as you can plainly see, is blocking play from entire COUNTRIES with their clause - which is way more than many other casinos do. If you make your point to them I'm sure they will more than welcome your suggestions - but don't be trying to hold them up to garbage from elsewhere.

 

[jpsartre]

Suzecat: As far as I know there is no problem choosing GBP as your preferred currency when signing up at a casino, even if you are a resident of USA. Some casinos enforce special rules about this (like, you must choose USD if you are american etc), but I've never had a problem choosing GBP even though I'm not in country where this is the currency. Also, there is no problem having a Neteller account in USD and using it to deposit at casinos where you are playing in a different currency. I do this all the time. So I don't see any reason to suppose that Autumn12 would have had to lie about her country of residence in order to play in GBP.

EDIT: Maybe I'm just not getting your point, but what do you mean by this question: 'OK, so if a casino requires that you purchase/play in the same currency as the country where you live, then it would not be possible to use Neteller unless you were untruthful about your country of residence?'

 

[amandajm]

Bust my balls G2b, go ahead. Be right though is preferable no? I'm easy either way.

There are casinos accepting deposits from barred jurisdictions left right and centre. Including 32red.

To rogue Grand Prive, on the basis they did not do their due diligence re jurisdictional gaming laws is the Meister's least finest moment, but you want to bust my balls and tell me about garbage?

Unrevocable FACT - Ecogra said they cannot get a list together of barred jurisdictional laws and stay up to date, but they are sweet as, and Grand Prive are rogue for lack of due diligence?

This ruling needs a serious rethink from all parties Spearmaster and I expect and trust you and many others to lead the call, not me.

 

[spearmaster]

The reason I'm roasting your chestnuts is because your posts are attempting to do damage to another operator for no realistic reason other than you are unwilling to tell them yourself.

Furthermore, you have no proof that they are accepting wagers from Nevada - you are just saying so because it does not explicitly say so otherwise on their website.

Does that mean I can enter your home any time unless you have a sign outside specifically forbidding my entry?

No more of this part of the discussion in here. Start a new thread if you like. But any more in here unrelated to the issue at hand will earn you a vacation.

 

[bb1webs]

:notworthy Mr Spear:

I just thought I'd toss my 2cents into the ring by stating that while I must admit I didn't ever read the casino's T&Cs whether or not I must use my country's currency ...

I surely have thought it was my choice of what currency I chose to play because it asks you ...

and to further that point I would note that I play in poker rooms every day where the buy in is in pounds and they simply convert it over for me.

so following that line of thinking I'd surely not have guessed it was breaking any rules to choose to gamble in pounds rather than dollars. Furthermore it wouldn't matter with the exception for the amount of bonus chips you'd gain but keep in mind that its not actually that much of an extra bonus if you consider that it won't buy you any more spins on the major millions (assuming major millions has a pounds amount it pays out because I don't know how that works) but anyway if a spin costing a pound = $2.00 or a spin in dollars costs $1: well its all relative isn't it?

not sure that was said in the best way but I think it has merit. ... if not I'm sure Spear will correct me.

... great to see you Bud. (so to speak).

 

[amandajm]

Spear.
Attempting to damage 32red by comparance? You know better.

Earn a vacation?

For daring to disagree and for Link Outdated / Removed?

This is an ongoing discussion and I put it to you, that you are now being selective re 1 post out of 10/0/0.

I told you it is not possible to rogue an ecogra casino without rogueing ecogra, now you want to pull rank today?

I protested your support of ecogra personally, now you want to bar me because I turned out to be right.

Never thought i'd see the day Spear. Not from the self-confessed-maverick-you.

 

[spearmaster]

amandajm -

I asked you to start a new thread. I didn't say you could not bring up the issue - I did say that it does not belong in this discussion.

I'll ask you one last time - if you want to talk about different casinos and their terms (and btw 32Red is NOT eCOGRA-certified) then do it in another thread - not in this one.

Let's keep this issue on track - thank you for your cooperation.

BB-

Hey bud... LOL... long time no "speak/see".

I agree - I don't think the actual currency in use should be an issue - as you can see I did say that I can't see anything wrong with that

You're also right about the progressives - the payout is in whatever currency you play in, and the risk ratio is exactly the same. At least with MGS and PT if I am not mistaken...

 

[Vesuvio]

To rogue Grand Prive, on the basis they did not do their due diligence re jurisdictional gaming laws is the Meister's least finest moment, but you want to bust my balls and tell me about garbage?

Just two points:

1) Grand Prive wouldn't have been rogued if it was only for not doing due diligence, as you're right that few casinos even approach that. They were rogued for using it as a neat trick to pocket 20k they had no right to.

2) Grand Prive have deserved rogueing for a very long time based on their general conduct. It's a bit like Al Capone being done for tax evasion

 

[soflat]

Spear.

I told you it is not possible to rogue an ecogra casino without rogueing ecogra, now you want to pull rank today?

I protested your support of ecogra personally, now you want to bar me because I turned out to be right.

That's just poor logic. They (Casinomeister and ecogra) have different criteria. If they didn't, then what would be the point?

Personally, I don't think eCogra is that great anymore, but they do serve a limited purpose.

 

[caruso]

Just for my own curiosity autumn12, I was wondering how you were able to purchase/play in pounds when you live in the US?…Autumn12 never responded to this question. So now I will get to the cheating aspect of this whole mess.

Did you happen to miss the answer she gave DIRECTLY following your question back then?

Autumn12, I guess you did not read/understand the general terms and conditions on the Bella Vegas website, to wit: "Players residing in the United States of America may only wager in US dollar."

When I played there they did not have a term that Pounds are not allowed for US players. They added it after I played , I think couple of months after.

Link to the post for anyone else suffering from Selective Memory Syndrome:

Link Outdated / Removed

Let's take a look at Suzecat's chat - manifestly designed to elicit responses about this player's "illegal" transfers which she spectacularly failed to elicit:

Question: "I just wanted to find out if I, as a US citizen with a US bank account, can purchase British pounds and use them to gamble."

Answer: "We[ll] the funds that would go into your NETeller account would be USD. If you find a merchant that will accept funds from a USD account and they are GBP than the conversion would be done for you at the time of the transfer."

So yes – you can. We all know that anyway. BFD.

Question: "OK, so if a casino requires that you purchase/play in the same currency as the country where you live, then it would not be possible to use Neteller unless you were untruthful about your country of residence?"

Where did that come from?? The casino does NO such thing, and nothing in the Neteller rep’s answer suggested any such thing. All he said was that the conversion would be done at the time of transfer. Exactly WHERE in his response did you deduce "so, if a casino requires that you purchase/play in the same currency as the country where you live…"?

Obvious answer: "No, it would be based on your currency, not your country of residence, as any NETeller customer can choose USD, CAD, GBP, and EUR as there base currency to their NETeller account."

Question: "Right, so I understand that Neteller would convert funds for you but they do not confirm an account holders' country of residence with a merchant?"

Why would they?? Since when was it down to Neteller to tell a Costa Rican casino that Caruso, playing in USD, is from England??

Obvious answer: "That is correct, we do not give any information to the merchants as far as you personal NETeller information goes."

Well duuuuuh, big surprise there.

Dramatic finale: "Michael, is it OK for me to copy this chat session and share it with people at Casinomeister forum?"

Yeah, I mean we learned a lot there, didn’t we? We learned that Neteller doesn't reveal to the casino details of their (Neteller) customers' accounts. Pretty important to get Neteller's express permission before posting THAT chat wasn't it? I mean, countries might fall now. Wars might start.

Why didn’t you just ask Michael if he eats corn flakes for breakfast? We’d have had a more meaningful insight. LMAO.

Just to back up what has already been said anyway: casinos WANT players playing in GBP – that's why the offer multiple currencies. GBP are bigger than USD, so represent a bigger win rate for the casino. Clearly, they also represent a bigger win rate for the bonus hunter – which is the downside from the casinos' perspective.

Oh, and now I come to think of it, tell me this Suzecat: since in your opinion "if a casino requires that you purchase/play in the same currency as the country where you live, then it would not be possible to use Neteller unless you were untruthful about your country of residence?"

…and since I personally use Neteller to play is US dollars as a UK citizen, Neteller is actually condoning my illegal account operation. Correct?

Think carefully before answering, because you might not be best advised to state that both myself and Neteller are basically frauds.

Maybe I'm just not getting your point, but what do you mean by this question: 'OK, so if a casino requires that you purchase/play in the same currency as the country where you live, then it would not be possible to use Neteller unless you were untruthful about your country of residence?'

Yeah, run this one by us, Suzecat.

 

[Pinababy69]

I give up...you are just f**ing rude Caruso. Was it really necessary to post that long a post picking apart every single word she said? And accuse any or all of us who don't agree with your point of view on everything of suffering from Selective Memory Syndrome? WTF is wrong with you that you can't just make your posts in a civil manner, and why do you have to talk down to anyone who doesn't agree with you? I've even seen you do it to Bryan, and to many others here. What is it that's so special about you that you think you can talk to people the way you do? Learn some tact, learn some diplomacy and for Christ's sakes learn some people skills...people may actually take you seriously. I've said it before, your motives are pure and I'm sure you have some great ideas, but man, this sarcasm and negativity and better than everyone else attitude......it's getting you absolutely nowhere, and real fast. All you'll succeed in doing is alienating alot of people who read your posts...and if you ever hope to work in this industry as a mediator, you'd better lose the attitude. If I were a casino operator and researched your style, I'd run for the hills as fast as I could. Not that you care two shits what myself or anyone else thinks, but I feel better for having said it. That post of yours above mine was totally uncalled for and rude.

 

[soflat]

It was kind of rude, because I don't think Suzecat knew much about playing in different currencies (how easy it is, and that it is no big deal at many casinos, etc).

 

[Pinababy69]

It was kind of rude, because I don't think Suzecat knew much about playing in different currencies (how easy it is, and that it is no big deal at many casinos, etc).

That was my point exactly Soflat...there is no need to ridicule someone and pick apart in detail the way he did. Misinformed or not, she meant well, and that was uncalled for.