AVOID THE IOG GROUP - Casino Las Vegas, Swiss Casino, Magic Box etc

jetset said:
I can never understand why a casino group that objects to bonus hunters going after a bonus at every site in the group doesn't change their T&Cs to better reflect their policy


Because this way they get a chance to freeroll their players.

If the player wins, the casino confiscates his winnings.

If the player loses, the casino keeps the losses.

This way, the casino can take advantage of bonuses, without having to risk any of its own funds.

The only way players can protect themselves from this kind of bonus abuse, is to publicize the names of the casinos who do it, so we know which sites to avoid.
 
HYPOCRITES

IOG did the same thing to me except I am UP money which they are now refusing to pay.

IF THEY LOCK YOUR ACCOUNT FOR SOME REASON WHEN YOU ARE UP THEN YOU ARE "ABUSIVE" AND THEY DO NOT DO ANYTHING BUT RETURN DEPOSITS.

IF THEY LOCK YOUR ACCOUNT FOR SOME REASON WHEN YOU ARE DOWN THEN YOU HAVE LEGITIMATE LOSSES ACCORDING TO THEM AND THEY WON'T GIVE YOU YOUR DEPOSITS BACK.

YOU CANT HAVE YOUR CAKE AND EAT IT TOO.
 
Sorry to hear about your situation, wootchris, though it's good to see someone posting on this thread again. I always feel it's a shame when these things go quiet without any kind of resolution being reached.

If I understand the original player's case right, he/she had losses at four of the five casinos, but still had a balance with them, from which the bonuses were deducted. My take on these things is simple:

1. Either the player's deposited funds are wagered first, or the bonus funds are wagered first. Casinos cannot choose retrospectively which of these happens, as this would clearly allow them to deal with each case in the way that works out best for them, rather than in a fair and consistent manner.

2. Casinos have the right to refuse to issue a bonus. (I may not like it, but I do accept it). However, once they've actually issued the bonus, they're bound to let the player play it out and make a withdrawal, according to the T&Cs. If the casino then wants to refuse you any future bonuses, then fine. But confiscating a bonus just because they don't like the way you use it, even though you didn't break any T&Cs, is NOT acceptable imo.
 
Our casino group always tries its best to follow the rules set down in the Terms of Use that all of our players must read and have to agree to in order to become a member of one of our casinos. The player with the issue in question agreed to all of the following statements. We have refunded his original deposit and closed his account.

Below are the specific points in our agreed upon Terms of Use.

9.6 In the event that we will suspect fraud or fraudulent activity on your part or any of your payments are charged back, we will have the right to withhold any pay-out or winning amounts due to you and if necessary, to lawfully collect any payments owed by you.

9.7 We may at any time without prior notice to you terminate your use of the Online Casino and block your Player Account if it considers that you are in breach of any of the terms and provisions of this Agreement or that you are otherwise acting illegally

9.8 We reserve the right, at our sole discretion, to offer and advertise from time to time promotions, bonuses or other special offers and each such offer will be subject to specific terms and conditions which will be valid for a limited period of time. In connection with the specific terms of the above promotions, bonus and special offers, we further reserve the right to withhold any withdrawal amount from your account which will be in excess of your original deposit. In addition, we reserve the right to withhold or otherwise decline or reverse any pay-out or winning amount or amend any policy in the event that we suspect that you are abusing or attempting to abuse any of the following: (i) bonuses; (ii) other promotions; or (iii) specific policy or rules determined in respect of an existing game or a new game.

If anyone has any questions about our Terms of Use please direct them to me at graham@iogltd.com.

Graham

IOG Casino Group
 
Graham....

Seriously - answer the freakin' question. WHAT ABUSE HAPPENED? What was your reasoning for closing the accounts? Nobody is going to feel IOG did the right thing until you answer that question!

I am removing all IOG casinos from my affiliate sites. I won't promote this kind of shit.

PS - I am glad that you refunded his original deposit (yay!), but how do we know this won't happen again?
 
Could the Casinos please define exactly what a "Bonus abuser is."
I just dont get it.
It is individual casinos that advertise a first deposit bonus and not the group or software provider so what is the problem with this guy taking up more than one promotion?
Also what are the wagering requirements all about if it is not the Casinos way of making sure their promotions are not open to abuse.

"In the interests of fair gaming we ask our players to wager x amount before a withdrawal can be made."

In the interests of fair gaming I ask the Casinos to simplify a bonus in the following manner;

In the event of a player losing his/her first deposit having made no withdrawal request the Casino offers a bonus of x% of deposit lost.This bonus is cashable and has no WR.

Now of course this would never happen because the Casinos know they would be at real risk from "bonus abuse" but that is what a genuine promotion would look like.

If Casinos are so worried about bonus abuse then stop marketing bonus offers so aggresively, but you wont will you because the end result is they are good for profits, now stop the bullshit.
 
Graham,

You can write in your T&C that you reserve the right to confiscate winnings from a bonus offer if you feel like it, but that won't fly here. Any reputable casino group has to honor a withdrawal from a player who has met the specific wagering requirements and terms of the offer.

I think Casinomeister said it best in the Feb 9 newsletter:
Dealing with Players Who Use Bonuses

If you offer a player a bonus, and this player meets the wagering requirements - pay her (or him). Please understand, you are not being cheated if a player plays the bonus to the last cent; you are providing that player a unique service - the ability to gamble online. This is your function as a casino, and your mantra should be "Pay the player. Pay the player. Pay the player..." Repeat ad nauseum.

Providing gambling activities online may be your function, but with a bit of creativity and ingenuity you can garner loyalty from this player to keep him or her coming back. The house always wins, and if you are going to survive in this highly competitive industry, you need to see this "win" as a long term goal. Keep your players happy, whether you like their style of play or not, and you will receive your just rewards: respect and loyalty.
 
They refunded the player's original deposit (singular). Which one? I believe he made a number of deposits at multiple casinos within their group and had winnings off one, which they've confiscated. I don't think they're returning the deposits he lost. In other words they deemed his style of play abusive when he won, but not when he lost.

imo the only 'right' thing to do is pay the player's winnings. Refunding his deposits and banning him isn't great, but it's better than nothing.

Graham, I don't see how points 9.6 and 9.7 are relevant. As far as I'm aware there's no suggestion that the player committed fraud, charged back, or broke any T&Cs.

In connection with the specific terms of the above promotions, bonus and special offers, we further reserve the right to withhold any withdrawal amount from your account which will be in excess of your original deposit.

In other words, if a player uses a bonus and wins, you don't have to do any more than give the deposit back if you don't feel like it. Have I understood that right?

In addition, we reserve the right to withhold or otherwise decline or reverse any pay-out or winning amount or amend any policy in the event that we suspect that you are abusing or attempting to abuse any of the following: (i) bonuses; (ii) other promotions; or (iii) specific policy or rules determined in respect of an existing game or a new game.

I notice you don't define 'abuse', and you reserve the right to do things based on what you suspect, thus shifting the burden of proof onto the player. I doubt this would wash in a properly regulated industry.
 
I would call this theft and fraud. I guarantee you they couldnt get away with this if they were regulated. IMO, I would strongly suggest anyone reading this thread to stay far away from these casinos unless you want to get robbed.

What they are doing is no different from sticking a gun in someones back and stealing their wallet.
 
Ohhhh Graham..no disrespect but ..whaaaaat??

Seems to me that that Graham's replies are saying..."hey, he was stupid enough to sign this here agreement , so there ! And ...Buh Bye!.."

Well, I apparently have signed stupid agreements but I didnt feel they were stupid because I never entered into a Casino agreement with the intent to defraud and never dreamed that the Casino would think I was defrauding them by taking their offer! I take the bonus's because they are offered and I really want to play!
How many new people are coming online to "Cheat the casinos?" not many i'd say but, 100% are there to try and BEAT the Casino because WE ALL WANT TO WIN !! We figure..Hey! Good deal! Maybe I can win! I'll put 100.00 of my money down if they will match it! Never mind that I have to risk it all by trying to make the WR..but hey..Maybe I can! Never know! It's a gamble and that goes on BOTH SIDES!!!!
Isnt that what the bonus's are supposed to do? Bring in the customers? Increase our enjoyment of the casino so we come back? Isnt that what all the razzel dazzel and bling bling on the casino banners is all about? Come on in and WIN!! RETIRE EARLY!! Sheez! I'm so sick of this Bonus crap!

Come on..tell us what rule did my Pacific NW buddy violate?

Thank you for letting me vent. I still like bonuses.
 
My friend who had this issue, got this email a few days ago:
"IOG casino group is a highly respected online casino operation. We have literally hundreds of thousands of satisfied players globally. Our credibility stand out in the industry as we strive for service and player honor. We hold most of the biggest payout records on line today. We have one of the best software platforms with great game entertainment that satisfy our player base and this the reason why we are in the top one hundred online casinos worldwide.



When a player signs up to any online casino today the player agrees to have read and understood the terms and conditions clearly spelled out in the website information pages. This said we also give the player many opportunities to contact our live 24/7 support for any information plus a support system via email and toll free phones to request any information related to the games or the terms and conditions of the casino. This means that players with different intentions than just gambling and entertainment could understand that there are certain rules and regulations at play. This is no different from a land-based casino as there you have similar rules.

This brings me to my point – the term bonus seeker or bonus abuser is what we call players like this and there is a worldwide phenomenon related to this kind of player that think they can use online casinos as a quick rich project and that online casinos are gullible enough to tolerate any of this abuse. This means a player opening many accounts on the same day, try to get maximum bonuses in all the accounts, play specific games only with a high stake betting pattern, hopefully make a quick win with the assistance of the free bonuses, then play smaller bets to make wagering and then withdraw. Move on to the next casino and the next, making some money fast. Now this is where casino information share comes in, many online and land based casino share this kind of player information related to fraudulent or bonus abusers, helping casinos eliminate loss related to fraudulent and bonus abuse activities. The major problem is that there are many websites of late giving specific point-by-point information on how to defraud casinos. These play patterns are clearly pre determined by the abuser with a specific goal to use the free bonus incentives to gain an unfair advantage over the casino. This formula or calculated pattern falls absolutely within the same slot as card counting or even betting and is simply disallowed. Therefore, the very reason our casinos blocked your accounts and this information forwarded to an international credit information centre that specialize in possible fraudulent online activity. Now you will probably argue that you never had such intention. However, as we followed and monitored all your activities and game sessions we were convinced that your intention was bonus seeker related.



Below the exact words from our terms and conditions.



In the event that we will suspect fraud or fraudulent activity on your part or any of your payments are charged back, we will have the right to withhold any pay-out or winning amounts due to you and if necessary, to lawfully collect any payments owed by you.

We may at any time without prior notice to you terminate your use of the Online Casino and block your Player Account if it considers that you are in breach of any of the terms and provisions of this Agreement or that you are otherwise acting illegally. We will not be under any obligation in such circumstances to refund or otherwise reimburse you for any of the funds in your Player Account.



Your original deposit already refunded and as you have suffered no loss whatsoever, we consider this matter as closed.



Yours truly



Jonathan Strydom

IOG Game Master"

So in other words they openly admit that while he played allowed games, did not break any rules, etc, etc, because he and I played their bonus in a profitable manner they will not pay him any of his winnings.

um..... who in their right mind would want to play at this casino.
 
My friend who had this issue, got this email a few days ago:
"IOG casino group is a highly respected online casino operation. We have literally hundreds of thousands of satisfied players globally. Our credibility stand out in the industry as we strive for service and player honor. We hold most of the biggest payout records on line today. We have one of the best software platforms with great game entertainment that satisfy our player base and this the reason why we are in the top one hundred online casinos worldwide.



When a player signs up to any online casino today the player agrees to have read and understood the terms and conditions clearly spelled out in the website information pages. This said we also give the player many opportunities to contact our live 24/7 support for any information plus a support system via email and toll free phones to request any information related to the games or the terms and conditions of the casino. This means that players with different intentions than just gambling and entertainment could understand that there are certain rules and regulations at play. This is no different from a land-based casino as there you have similar rules.

This brings me to my point – the term bonus seeker or bonus abuser is what we call players like this and there is a worldwide phenomenon related to this kind of player that think they can use online casinos as a quick rich project and that online casinos are gullible enough to tolerate any of this abuse. This means a player opening many accounts on the same day, try to get maximum bonuses in all the accounts, play specific games only with a high stake betting pattern, hopefully make a quick win with the assistance of the free bonuses, then play smaller bets to make wagering and then withdraw. Move on to the next casino and the next, making some money fast. Now this is where casino information share comes in, many online and land based casino share this kind of player information related to fraudulent or bonus abusers, helping casinos eliminate loss related to fraudulent and bonus abuse activities. The major problem is that there are many websites of late giving specific point-by-point information on how to defraud casinos. These play patterns are clearly pre determined by the abuser with a specific goal to use the free bonus incentives to gain an unfair advantage over the casino. This formula or calculated pattern falls absolutely within the same slot as card counting or even betting and is simply disallowed. Therefore, the very reason our casinos blocked your accounts and this information forwarded to an international credit information centre that specialize in possible fraudulent online activity. Now you will probably argue that you never had such intention. However, as we followed and monitored all your activities and game sessions we were convinced that your intention was bonus seeker related.



Below the exact words from our terms and conditions.



In the event that we will suspect fraud or fraudulent activity on your part or any of your payments are charged back, we will have the right to withhold any pay-out or winning amounts due to you and if necessary, to lawfully collect any payments owed by you.

We may at any time without prior notice to you terminate your use of the Online Casino and block your Player Account if it considers that you are in breach of any of the terms and provisions of this Agreement or that you are otherwise acting illegally. We will not be under any obligation in such circumstances to refund or otherwise reimburse you for any of the funds in your Player Account.



Your original deposit already refunded and as you have suffered no loss whatsoever, we consider this matter as closed.



Yours truly



Jonathan Strydom

IOG Game Master"

So in other words they openly admit that while he played allowed games, did not break any rules, etc, etc, because he and I played their bonus in a profitable manner they will not pay winnings.

um..... who in their right mind would want to play at this casino.
 
In a way it's refreshing to see the indefensible logic of so many on-line casinos stated so bluntly.
Jonathan Strydom said:
This brings me to my point – the term bonus seeker or bonus abuser is what we call players like this and there is a worldwide phenomenon related to this kind of player that think they can use online casinos as a quick rich project and that online casinos are gullible enough to tolerate any of this abuse.
Inept grammar aside, it's the old story - playing a bonus and trying to keep some of the "free" money is "abuse". Players are supposed to be gullible enough to be drawn in by the incentive and lose their deposit, but if they play sensibly and get lucky the casino won't allow itself to be "gullible", so it'll just steal any winnings. Sounds like a neat get-rich-quick scheme to me.

Jonathan Strydom said:
Now this is where casino information share comes in, many online and land based casino share this kind of player information related to fraudulent or bonus abusers, helping casinos eliminate loss related to fraudulent and bonus abuse activities. The major problem is that there are many websites of late giving specific point-by-point information on how to defraud casinos.
I'm just quoting the above as an example of the way on-line casinos are trying to blur the line between fraud and simply taking them up on their bonuses. The fact that two activities cost you money doesn't make them equivalent - someone who takes advantage of a 2-for-1 offer in a shop isn't a shoplifter.


Jonathan Strydom said:
These play patterns are clearly pre determined by the abuser with a specific goal to use the free bonus incentives to gain an unfair advantage over the casino.
This is bordering on the comical :) How dare the player try and turn the ("free") bonus to his advantage! Note the casino is offering the player an advantage - it's not a case of fraud or exploiting some flaw in the software. If you design a promotion so that the player has an edge you have to accept he might win. Advertising costs.

Jonathan Strydom said:
Below the exact words from our terms and conditions.



In the event that we will suspect fraud or fraudulent activity on your part or any of your payments are charged back, we will have the right to withhold any pay-out or winning amounts due to you and if necessary, to lawfully collect any payments owed by you.

We may at any time without prior notice to you terminate your use of the Online Casino and block your Player Account if it considers that you are in breach of any of the terms and provisions of this Agreement or that you are otherwise acting illegally. We will not be under any obligation in such circumstances to refund or otherwise reimburse you for any of the funds in your Player Account.
These are some of the weakest "catch-all" terms I've seen at an on-line casino. As taking advantage of bonuses isn't fraud they don't actually seem to have a case here. Anyway, quoting these terms is always a sure sign of a rogue casino.
Jonathan Strydom said:
Your original deposit already refunded and as you have suffered no loss whatsoever, we consider this matter as closed.
A strong contender for the most mind-numbingly stupid cliche of the on-line casino industry. A player's won, let's say, $1,000,000 from a $100 deposit, meeting all the terms and conditions. His balance is now his own money, but the casino gives back just the deposit... and no harm's done :rolleyes: Of course if you can get away with returning deposits to winning players and keeping the deposits of losers you've got the perfect business - even if any genuine regulation would see you closed down for fraud ;)
 
I agree with you Vesuvio

gosh, it's basically saying "If you use our bonues in conjunction with your money, we reserve the right to tell you how to play. Players who do not sufficiantly dink around with their money and lose at the rate required will lose further access to our casino in an attempt to prevent the fraud of winning".......:eek2:
 
From their site:

"Magicbox Casino is a fully licensed Online Casino, regulated by the Government of Antigua and operating under the supervision of the Director of Offshore Gaming. We adhere to a strict code of conduct and our high level of integrity has earned us the trust and loyalty of our numerous clients."

Makes me want to :puke:
 
There have been enough warnings about this group

These casinos have been blacklisted for years on my site for similar behaviour. There have been countless threads at winneronline too going back a few years and many here too. They need to understand how to run a casino properly and ethically.

It's one of the few groups of casinos I've never bothered playing. The Strydom guy must be new and he's put the final nail in the coffin. I also wonder if this group is connected to any other, maybe even a Microgaming powered group. I know Swiss Casino was initially owned or partly owned by an existing online operator but I never found out which one.

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WINNERonline Gambling Discussion - Casino Las Vegas - removes bonus and winnings for "abuse" (ie: winning)
 
This means that players with different intentions than just gambling and entertainment could understand that there are certain rules and regulations at play. This is no different from a land-based casino as there you have similar rules.

You mean terms that allow you to take away a player's winnings because you don't like the way they played? I notice those are conveniently vague. BTW I have yet to be presented with a list of T&Cs I have to read before walking into a land-based casino... but then I don't go to land-based casinos very often, so what do I know?

This brings me to my point – the term bonus seeker or bonus abuser is what we call players like this and there is a worldwide phenomenon related to this kind of player that think they can use online casinos as a quick rich project and that online casinos are gullible enough to tolerate any of this abuse.

I think Vesuvio summed this up pretty well. Players can use online casinos as a 'quick rich project' [sic], because casinos have bonuses that are beatable. Why do they do that? I think an online gambling writer put it best when he said that 'if you have a conveyor belt with hundred-dollar bills on, it makes more sense to stand at the end with a big box than to catch a few bills flying off the sides'.

This means a player opening many accounts on the same day, try to get maximum bonuses in all the accounts, play specific games only with a high stake betting pattern, hopefully make a quick win with the assistance of the free bonuses, then play smaller bets to make wagering and then withdraw.

Don't offer bonuses like that, then. Or change the betting limits for bonuses so that's harder to do.

The major problem is that there are many websites of late giving specific point-by-point information on how to defraud casinos. [...] This formula or calculated pattern falls absolutely within the same slot as card counting or even betting and is simply disallowed. Therefore, the very reason our casinos blocked your accounts and this information forwarded to an international credit information centre that specialize in possible fraudulent online activity.

There are sites telling you how to make money off bonuses, but I have yet to see one advising how to defraud casinos, which is not the same thing.

I'm not sure what you mean by 'even betting', but I can tell you that card counting is not disallowed - it's not illegal anywhere I know of, and [land-based] casinos don't have T&Cs banning it. If they did, they'd lose loads of players who they make money from because they can't actually count cards that well. Also, no land-based casino would be able to steal a player's winnings because that player counted cards. Has anybody ever heard of that happening?

BTW When will casinos get this? Using bonuses profitably is NOT FRAUD. You start circulating people's information around because they've done nothing wrong other than be smart, and you'd be playing with fire in a well-regulated jurisdiction.

I'm sorry if I've been a little vitriolic in my criticism of this text. But casinos offer bonuses because they do work in terms of luring players in. Likewise, card counting made blackjack the most popular game in land-based casinos... and the most profitable for the house. Stop trying to have your cake and eat it too.
 
Once again, if this casino group feels so strongly that certain forms of play are "abusing" their bonus offers, then it needs to write such specific restrictions in its T&C. Ambiguous "we reserve the right to confiscate" clauses are simply not acceptable practice at any reputable casino.
 
If casinos dont want to attract "bonus hunters" then dont offer +EV bonuses... Period, Most reputable casinos are after customers who like a gamble and are allowed to sometimes get lucky. Any decent casino will court such players and accept the fact that they will get lucky every so often. Hell even I have won in Vegas occasionally and my comps dont disappear as a result (in fact they improve amazingly)
 
My friend who had this issue, got this email a few days ago:


So in other words they openly admit that while he played allowed games, did not break any rules, etc, etc, because he and I played their bonus in a profitable manner they will not pay winnings.

um..... who in their right mind would want to play at this casino.


I have no idea.

They are clearly a bunch of crooks. They knew the player was going to play in a manner that meant he was expected to win, because they've got a shared database and he's signed up to other casinos just to get the bonus. Apparently this is fraud????

Just to be clear: casino plays in a manner where casino is expected to win (i.e. all the time without a bonus) - not fraud
player plays in a manner where player is expected to win - fraud

They have every right to exclude players, but they need to do it when they sign up, BEFORE they deposit. Or else change their terms so that the bonuses aren't attractive.
 

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