Ask me anything (about slots)!

[trancemonkey]

Hi there do you know the name of the game that has fairies or elf's where there is a wild leaf that sometimes comes down, and you could also buy the feature spins before BGT done it?

Bally did games called Acorn Pixie, Butterfly Fairy and Diamonds of the Sea that all had Buy A Bonus features on them. Don't know if any went online though

 

[Scott1baird]

Bally did games called Acorn Pixie, Butterfly Fairy and Diamonds of the Sea that all had Buy A Bonus features on them. Don't know if any went online though

Yep that's the one thanks

 

[Fredos386]

Hi, i wanted at first to do a long explained text but realized it's useless so i'll just drop what i have to say just to unload it and go on with life. First of all, slots are not legit random. You do not have equal chances of hitting on every spin, the providers set cold/hot streaks because hot streaks hook players and human mind by nature tends to forget bad things and remember good things so will forget the cold streak but remember the hot ones. Each spin is not independant, regularly will you get "almost" a big win and the every next spin the missing symbol will pop where it was needed. Also, providers rig the slots to protect the casinos from any action that the player could use to give himself an edge. For example, try a game that hits like 1 bonus every 100 spins. Start betting 20p. If after 100 spins it didn't hit, raise to 30p, and so on (martyngale) and watch every single time you attempt this hit the longest dead streak you ever seen in your entire life. I did it with book of dead and every single time i ran in to 800-2000 dead spins in a row. I know the game can be really horrible, but every single time? Not possible. I did all kind of tries playing everyday for months, i did millions of spins and had always the same results, same cycles, same everything. So yeah that's when i quit. I would continue playing if there was a way to play real honest random slots, but it simply doesn't exist. The casino lobby is too powerful to do anything as everyone is paid by the casinos. The providers, the gaming commissions, casinomeister and others are all paid directly or indirectly by casinos and therefor in the end will always side with them one way or another. I just needed to say it, just once to empty my mind and move on. Just think about one thing, when you hook people with rigged hot streaks and then ruin them with cold streaks not only do you destroy persons and families but you also kill people. Think about all the people that committed suicide after losing everything to a rigged rng that made sure they had no chances whatsoever. I just can't continue standing in area where people die because of lies and manipulation and no one cares. Morally i just can't stand it anymore. And for people thinking i just lost a ton and i'm frustrated, i'm leaving up 5k for the month and i was a low roller. So no it's not because i lost too much and im ruined, it's because i analysed and understood how it all works, i tested it and now i know without doubt how it is and it makes me want to throw up. And don't get me wrong, i wouldn't mind playing real honest random slot where each spin is really random with equal chances. I don't mind the rtp below 100% as it's obvious casinos and providers have to make their money. I just can't stand playing rigged slots that are sold to players as "random". They are not. Even if in the long term their cycle hot/cold hit the rtp... it doesn't change the fact they are cheating the player, they are tricking his mind to take his money and abuse his weaknesses. It's fraudulent and if it was all about me there a lot of people that would go straight to jail right now. But money rule the world and casinos/providers have a lot of it so they get away with it. On this, good luck guys, even if i know it's nothing about luck anymore .

 

[dionysus]

oh look, a newbie its rigged rant
how novel

 

[Sonict]

He may be new on CM, but he has been playing slots for a long time. All of what he said has happened to him. He is also a streamer too. I don't personally believe that slots are that rigged as he says, but those patterns of hot / cold and raising the bet that turns the slot dead is something we all see. I don't see it that way as I think they are not rigged and are not purposely making the slots do things to get problem gamblers playing them.

 

[dionysus]

He may be new on CM
I don't see it that way as I think they are not rigged and are not purposely making the slots do things to get problem gamblers playing them.

Sooo essentially a newbies it's rigged rant then

 

[Fredos386]

dionysus thanks for proving one of my point, it only took 15 minutes. I'm amazed .

 

[dionysus]

dionysus thanks for proving one of my point, it only took 15 minutes. I'm amazed .

that's good - it's probably the only provable point in your entire essay

 

[Fredos386]

Yeah and why can't i prove all i said? Would it be because providers work in secret and block access to people so we have no way to go verify what they are doing? Strange no? I mean, if they are so legit and honest, why are they making sure no one knows? Why can't we go visit them and see how the whole thing works? I always said i wish i could go visit providers to look at rng's and see how they are working and such but i wonder why, it's not possible. But oh yeah a casino apologist, top priorities in life bro.

 

[dionysus]

not a casino apologist really; I think I spend more time apologizing for the conspiracy theorists in the room to new players genuinely interested in slots and spend time reading the thread to understand things like mechanics, maths, IP etc.

 

[Fredos386]

I didn't come up with that after a losing streak being angry and say whatever. I spent months, millions of spins (really) and tested. In the past 2 weeks i had the money so went to last part of my tests that required going in all the way no matter the cost to see if what i predicted would happen and it did. I came to the conclusion that either im right, or there are 1 chance on trillions that it all happened randomly. The odds that i'm right are much bigger than the opposite. Just go do some reading on provability on casinos and providers, even some admit it's not random but since the player cannot know or predict the outcome then even if it's not random it is considered as random. My whole point was that i love slots and would love to continue playing real random slots but they don't exist in the market at the moment. When asking providers or casinos, they will just tell you in long term the rtp is respected, my problem is not the rtp, it's how they distribute it. It was raging to sit and go through thousands of dead spins knowing full well i had to go through the cold rng if i wanted to reach the hot one and finally have some fun. It was killing my fun to hit 1500x and know full well that because of that the game would be unplayable for days/weeks following because of it even though it's supposed to be random. True random slots would continue behaving the same even if you hit 2000x 10 times in a row. But online they remember and they make you pay for it. Of course it has maybe a good side, you know that if you rip a lot the providers will ship you big wins eventually compared to random where there is no guarantee. Today and yesterday i hit mega monsters. The previous 3 days i had ripped all day long doing my tests and i told people to watch i would hit huge very soon, few hours later 1500x was in and other monsters would follow. You would be amazed how easy it is to predict these things once you know what i know. But heh, you guys are the first to say politics, cops and everyone are corrupted but then when it's about casinos then oops no no they are totally legit, honest, top notch people. I mean come on at least try to make sense.

 

[dionysus]

Make sense? Like, posting in a forum where you immediately insult your hosts?

. The providers, the gaming commissions, casinomeister and others are all paid directly or indirectly by casinos and therefor in the end will always side with them one way or another. .

Besides Bryan who advocates fairplay I'd daresay @maxd our player arbitration guy would disagree with that statement.
But of course, you also go into a thread dedicated to understanding slots then have long-winded tirades effectively showing how little you understand slots even though all your points have been addressed ad anuseum in said thread

 

[Steviedoo]

I didn't come up with that after a losing streak being angry and say whatever. I spent months, millions of spins (really) and tested. In the past 2 weeks i had the money so went to last part of my tests that required going in all the way no matter the cost to see if what i predicted would happen and it did. I came to the conclusion that either im right, or there are 1 chance on trillions that it all happened randomly. The odds that i'm right are much bigger than the opposite. Just go do some reading on provability on casinos and providers, even some admit it's not random but since the player cannot know or predict the outcome then even if it's not random it is considered as random. My whole point was that i love slots and would love to continue playing real random slots but they don't exist in the market at the moment. When asking providers or casinos, they will just tell you in long term the rtp is respected, my problem is not the rtp, it's how they distribute it. It was raging to sit and go through thousands of dead spins knowing full well i had to go through the cold rng if i wanted to reach the hot one and finally have some fun. It was killing my fun to hit 1500x and know full well that because of that the game would be unplayable for days/weeks following because of it even though it's supposed to be random. True random slots would continue behaving the same even if you hit 2000x 10 times in a row. But online they remember and they make you pay for it. Of course it has maybe a good side, you know that if you rip a lot the providers will ship you big wins eventually compared to random where there is no guarantee. Today and yesterday i hit mega monsters. The previous 3 days i had ripped all day long doing my tests and i told people to watch i would hit huge very soon, few hours later 1500x was in and other monsters would follow. You would be amazed how easy it is to predict these things once you know what i know. But heh, you guys are the first to say politics, cops and everyone are corrupted but then when it's about casinos then oops no no they are totally legit, honest, top notch people. I mean come on at least try to make sense.

Hmmm. Somewhere in this rant you said you can predict and how easy it is. I for one would not be quitting if you can predict when the slot and how the slot will react. No? If it’s so easy why aren’t you making tons of money with your predictions.

 

[TheAddict]

@Fredos386

Problem is bro, with respect, you would think by now that one - just one morally sound person (on their death bed, or during a time where they just dont give any shits for consequences any longer) would by now have provided irrefutable evidence of the rng being tweaked to display such hot and cold streaks that you describe. Someone who was truelly "in on it" but had nothing to lose, and decided to open the lid as a final gift to gamblers worldwide, and be the chosen one who brought down everything.

As for your "hitting 2000x ten times in a row", i dont know the odds for that obviously, neither the odds for hitting a 2000x hit in one spin (which obviously differs per game), but id guess for the former i'd need to write a post that would have to be nearing as big as yours in order to write out the number ;p

Hot & cold streaks are going to happen in a rng game. Otherwise it wouldnt be random. But depending on the slot you are playing (volatility, variance, etc), due to its design, this in the long term will vary.

Its a numbers game, that is weighted against the player. You could do the same thing with a mahousive bag of numbered balls, and produce the same type of streaks if the numbers were the same.
Those poxy graphics are effing annoying (one away from a huge win etc) but yes, its often to encourage excitement (possibly banging head against walls after a few years of noticing it), and occasionally (depending on how the slot is designed) its going to happen naturally. I know only to well, i estimate ive played over 5 million spins on dead or alive , and the near misses have been driving me crazy since the html5 release lol (where the graphics are proven to be gimped in some ways, unlike the flash version, but it could still just be me going insane!)

Oh, and fwiw (IMO of course) politicians and police are often corrupted, and there also has been whistle blowers for that, let alone way to much key important evidence that would prove something - time and time again, for things that would expose corruption possibly in both parties, coincidently dissapearing. . Some of the crap that goes on in the uk is borderline treason, but thats a whole new story

 

[trancemonkey]

Hi, i wanted at first to do a long explained text but realized it's useless so i'll just drop what i have to say just to unload it and go on with life. First of all, slots are not legit random. You do not have equal chances of hitting on every spin, the providers set cold/hot streaks because hot streaks hook players and human mind by nature tends to forget bad things and remember good things so will forget the cold streak but remember the hot ones. Each spin is not independant, regularly will you get "almost" a big win and the every next spin the missing symbol will pop where it was needed. Also, providers rig the slots to protect the casinos from any action that the player could use to give himself an edge. For example, try a game that hits like 1 bonus every 100 spins. Start betting 20p. If after 100 spins it didn't hit, raise to 30p, and so on (martyngale) and watch every single time you attempt this hit the longest dead streak you ever seen in your entire life. I did it with book of dead and every single time i ran in to 800-2000 dead spins in a row. I know the game can be really horrible, but every single time? Not possible. I did all kind of tries playing everyday for months, i did millions of spins and had always the same results, same cycles, same everything. So yeah that's when i quit. I would continue playing if there was a way to play real honest random slots, but it simply doesn't exist. The casino lobby is too powerful to do anything as everyone is paid by the casinos. The providers, the gaming commissions, casinomeister and others are all paid directly or indirectly by casinos and therefor in the end will always side with them one way or another. I just needed to say it, just once to empty my mind and move on. Just think about one thing, when you hook people with rigged hot streaks and then ruin them with cold streaks not only do you destroy persons and families but you also kill people. Think about all the people that committed suicide after losing everything to a rigged rng that made sure they had no chances whatsoever. I just can't continue standing in area where people die because of lies and manipulation and no one cares. Morally i just can't stand it anymore. And for people thinking i just lost a ton and i'm frustrated, i'm leaving up 5k for the month and i was a low roller. So no it's not because i lost too much and im ruined, it's because i analysed and understood how it all works, i tested it and now i know without doubt how it is and it makes me want to throw up. And don't get me wrong, i wouldn't mind playing real honest random slot where each spin is really random with equal chances. I don't mind the rtp below 100% as it's obvious casinos and providers have to make their money. I just can't stand playing rigged slots that are sold to players as "random". They are not. Even if in the long term their cycle hot/cold hit the rtp... it doesn't change the fact they are cheating the player, they are tricking his mind to take his money and abuse his weaknesses. It's fraudulent and if it was all about me there a lot of people that would go straight to jail right now. But money rule the world and casinos/providers have a lot of it so they get away with it. On this, good luck guys, even if i know it's nothing about luck anymore .

Every single thing you said is wrong... You should try having a read through the whole thread... It answers all the points you make.

But here are some points for you to consider...

1. Given that casinos can make more money by running lower RTP versions of the games, why do they need to "rig" games when they already have the edge? They already have the ability to increase that edge should they so choose.
2. Nearly all games providers are in competition with each other - so why would they then work together on complex and illegal software?
3. If i was going to compensate a game (and i've done compensated Cat C, B4 and some old B3 games) why would we compensate in such a way to make it OBVIOUS that it's ripping your arms off. The whole point of compensation is control - so if we CAN control the games, why make it so obvious and make them play so badly. Pissing players off does nothing other than lose customers, so your reasoning makes no sense.
4. Why has not one single pissed off disgruntled or sacked employee come out and spilled the beans. Ever.
5. Have you heard of Apophenia - it refers to a universal human tendency to seek patterns in random information, such as gambling. It's also called the "Gambler's Fallacy" -

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- this describes exactly the feeling that you (and most of us on here) have when gambling. Except only a few make the jump to rigged. And yes this is a provable phenomenon. The POSSIBLE SOLUTIONS section might give you some insight, but all of it is worth a read - here's an excerpt:
The gambler's fallacy is a deep-seated cognitive bias and can be very hard to overcome. Educating individuals about the nature of randomness has not always proven effective in reducing or eliminating any manifestation of the fallacy. Participants in a study by Beach and Swensson in 1967 were shown a shuffled deck of index cards with shapes on them, and were instructed to guess which shape would come next in a sequence. The experimental group of participants was informed about the nature and existence of the gambler's fallacy, and were explicitly instructed not to rely on run dependency to make their guesses. The control group was not given this information. The response styles of the two groups were similar, indicating that the experimental group still based their choices on the length of the run sequence. This led to the conclusion that instructing individuals about randomness is not sufficient in lessening the gambler's fallacy
6. If you are still adamant we are a lying bunch of crooks, i'm a liar and just here to further the misdirection, then honestly - why play at all?

To put it simply no we don't rig games or create hot and cold steaks....

Here is the regulation with regards to "random" - it's an excerpt but you can look at the whole text by googling Remote Game Technical Standards. Section 7 is the one you want here...

RTS requirement 7A
Random number generation and game results must be ‘acceptably random’. Acceptably random
here means that it is possible to demonstrate to a high degree of confidence that the output of the
RNG, game, lottery and virtual event outcomes are random through, for example, statistical
analysis using generally accepted tests and methods of analysis. Adaptive behaviour (ie a
compensated game) is not permitted.

Notice the last section? That says you cannot do what you think we do. There is no reason to do it either... Random games naturally do it.

 

[trancemonkey]

I didn't come up with that after a losing streak being angry and say whatever. I spent months, millions of spins (really) and tested. In the past 2 weeks i had the money so went to last part of my tests that required going in all the way no matter the cost to see if what i predicted would happen and it did. I came to the conclusion that either im right, or there are 1 chance on trillions that it all happened randomly. The odds that i'm right are much bigger than the opposite. Just go do some reading on provability on casinos and providers, even some admit it's not random but since the player cannot know or predict the outcome then even if it's not random it is considered as random. My whole point was that i love slots and would love to continue playing real random slots but they don't exist in the market at the moment. When asking providers or casinos, they will just tell you in long term the rtp is respected, my problem is not the rtp, it's how they distribute it. It was raging to sit and go through thousands of dead spins knowing full well i had to go through the cold rng if i wanted to reach the hot one and finally have some fun. It was killing my fun to hit 1500x and know full well that because of that the game would be unplayable for days/weeks following because of it even though it's supposed to be random. True random slots would continue behaving the same even if you hit 2000x 10 times in a row. But online they remember and they make you pay for it. Of course it has maybe a good side, you know that if you rip a lot the providers will ship you big wins eventually compared to random where there is no guarantee. Today and yesterday i hit mega monsters. The previous 3 days i had ripped all day long doing my tests and i told people to watch i would hit huge very soon, few hours later 1500x was in and other monsters would follow. You would be amazed how easy it is to predict these things once you know what i know. But heh, you guys are the first to say politics, cops and everyone are corrupted but then when it's about casinos then oops no no they are totally legit, honest, top notch people. I mean come on at least try to make sense.

So you predicted a monster hit and then to quote you "a few hours later" it hit. That is hardly a prediction...

What do you think the odds are of getting over 1000x then? How often do you think it happens or should happen?

 

[TheAddict]

How often do you think it should happen?

For me, every bloody session.

 

[maxd]

... The providers, the gaming commissions, casinomeister and others are all paid directly or indirectly by casinos and therefor in the end will always side with them one way or another. I just needed to say it, just once to empty my mind and move on. ...

No offence but you've got a lot to learn about how the online casino business works, not to mention the place in our industry and the function of sites like ours (all two or three of them).

My first recommendation would be to ask others -- here or elsewhere -- about that and I think you'll find (if you care to see) that we are not beholden to the casinos and therefore are not subject to their whims. Ask other players who know this site what our track record over the past 20 years is, ask them who we do and do not "side with". I think you'll find the world is a little bigger than you seem to think it is.

In my particular case I settle player disputes with casinos. I've been doing this since late 2007, around 4000 cases now I think, and never once in that time has a casino ever had the opportunity or right to tell me how to rule on a case. The truth is that I'm not involved in the cash-flow side of things at Casinomeister and as such have no connection whatsoever to who we do or do not do business with. It helps our site considerably that I am able to function independently and that's exactly what I do.

What you are saying might sound logical to you but as I've said, the world is a little bigger than that and our business in particular is part of that bigger picture. Educate yourself, or don't if that's your preference, but know that you are assuming too much simply because you don't know better (yet).

 

[funnymunny]

No offence but you've got a lot to learn about how the online casino business works, not to mention the place in our industry and the function of sites like ours (all two or three of them).

My first recommendation would be to ask others -- here or elsewhere -- about that and I think you'll find (if you care to see) that we are not beholden to the casinos and therefore are not subject to their whims. Ask other players who know this site what our track record over the past 20 years is, ask them who we do and do not "side with". I think you'll find the world is a little bigger than you seem to think it is.

In my particular case I settle player disputes with casinos. I've been doing this since late 2007, around 4000 cases now I think, and never once in that time has a casino ever had the opportunity or right to tell me how to rule on a case. The truth is that I'm not involved in the cash-flow side of things at Casinomeister and as such have no connection whatsoever to who we do or do not do business with. It helps our site considerably that I am able to function independently and that's exactly what I do.

What you are saying might sound logical to you but as I've said, the world is a little bigger than that and our business in particular is part of that bigger picture. Educate yourself, or don't if that's your preference, but know that you are assuming too much simply because you don't know better (yet).

And that ^ ladies and gentlemen, is how it's done...!

 

[nikantw]

Hi @trancemonkey

Can you explain (given your extensive experience in licensing and regulations in many markets) what could be a possible issue with games that have and advertise win potential of 48,000x or 180,000x?
I am talking about things someone needs to consinder in order to make such games available in most markets.
The games are Peking Luck, DaVincis Treasures and Who Wants To Be A Millionaire

 

[trancemonkey]

Hi @trancemonkey

Can you explain (given your extensive experience in licensing and regulations in many markets) what could be a possible issue with games that have and advertise win potential of 48,000x or 180,000x?
I am talking about things someone needs to consinder in order to make such games available in most markets.
The games are Peking Luck, DaVincis Treasures and Who Wants To Be A Millionaire

Can you be more specific? I'm not really sure what question you're asking... Are you asking if there is an issue with advertising those prizes? Or if there is an issue with having prizes that big? Or something else?

 

[Smithyy]

Hey @trancemonkey just a few random questions I've been thinking of...

1) Are there any developers/software providers you personally think ARE dodgy/underhand? I guess there's lots of Russian/Eastern European ones, but any of the more well-known? I guess none working in UKGC jurisdictions would be classed as dodgy?

2) I have noticed that many games now have pretty spectacular musical soundtracks. Do game developers have in house musicians? Or is this kind of work outsourced to other companies?

3) What would your top 3/5 slots be, in terms of how impressed you are with their math model? I know you've mentioned Bonanza and Flame Busters before (that you wished you'd created), but curious as to what slots you're most impressed with overall.

Thanks!

 

[nikantw]

Can you be more specific? I'm not really sure what question you're asking... Are you asking if there is an issue with advertising those prizes? Or if there is an issue with having prizes that big? Or something else?

All of it.

Think like it is yours and you want to have that game with 180,000x potential on all casinos and markets. What do you do to make sure there is no compliance issues?
You want that game everywhere so you try to avoid the possibility many big casinos have the game restricted only to UK or something. What do you do?

Do you simply make sure the potential is real? Does the chance have to be higher than x%?
Do you remove the "win up to 180,000x" ?
Are there many countries that don't allow slots pay more than 5000x or something?

 

[trancemonkey]

All of it.

Think like it is yours and you want to have that game with 180,000x potential on all casinos and markets. What do you do to make sure there is no compliance issues?
You want that game everywhere so you try to avoid the possibility many big casinos have the game restricted only to UK or something. What do you do?

Do you simply make sure the potential is real? Does the chance have to be higher than x%?
Do you remove the "win up to 180,000x" ?
Are there many countries that don't allow slots pay more than 5000x or something?

Thanks for the clarification....

To answer your last question first - I don't know of any online jurisdictions that limit maximum prizes, although there may be some i'm not aware of.
There are a number of problems with having a win of 180,000x - firstly is whether the casinos want that kind of liability. Online casinos don't have and endless supply of money, which is why most have maximum payouts, or payout restrictions. If i designed a game with a 180,000x win in it (or wins up to that amount) it is unlikely many casinos would want to be hit for a payout of that size. Imagine you hit that on a bet of €10. That's €1.8m to payout. And if the casino has a max payout of €250k, the player has just "lost" €1.55m. So then in order to stop the capping causing issues, you'd have to limit the max bet to around €1,20 - which would be unattractive to a lot of players, and certain the high bettors which are where a casino makes a lot of money.

So there is likely no compliance reason, but there will be operating / business / finance reasons to avoid having max liabilities of that size. The casino that got the 14,800x hit on Bonanza - that was on a low stake, but it that had been on max stake, that would have hurt them, no matter how big the casino. And it could have REALLY hurt some of the smaller casinos....

Linked progressives can pay this type of money, but that is because linked progressives are normally paid for by the game providers not the casinos - the casinos pay the provider their rake, and the provider pays out the total prize (which is just a pot that all participating casinos have paid in to, in effect).

To answer your first question, if i advertised a prize in a game, i would want to make sure it had a chance of happening. So yes, i make sure the potential is real.

 

[trancemonkey]

Hey @trancemonkey just a few random questions I've been thinking of...

1) Are there any developers/software providers you personally think ARE dodgy/underhand? I guess there's lots of Russian/Eastern European ones, but any of the more well-known? I guess none working in UKGC jurisdictions would be classed as dodgy?

2) I have noticed that many games now have pretty spectacular musical soundtracks. Do game developers have in house musicians? Or is this kind of work outsourced to other companies?

3) What would your top 3/5 slots be, in terms of how impressed you are with their math model? I know you've mentioned Bonanza and Flame Busters before (that you wished you'd created), but curious as to what slots you're most impressed with overall.

Thanks!

I don't think i could name any i think are dodgy - there are a LOT of providers, and a lot of them do not operate in the UK or under such stringent guidelines. I'm sure there are some that we would term "rogue" but i honestly don't think there are any in the UKGC / MGA jurisdictions that are underhand.

Whether companies have in-house music really depends on the size of the company... i have worked with outsourcers and in-house musicians.

With regards to favorite games models of retail / online - there are lots that i like and play. And just because i like them, doens't mean they have performed really well - but as a designer i appreciate them...

1. Aristocrat - Any of the Lightning Link games (not really online, although Pragmatic Play have ripped it off)
2. WMS - Zeus II (i still go and hunt for these in Vegas)
3. WMS - Bruce Lee (without doubt the best Money Burst game)
4. NetEnt - Twin Spin (it was novel, it was different, and it was good - even though it could rip your arms off and beat you over the head with them)
5. BTG - Danger High Voltage (clever game design, decent base game hits, good free games with obvious potential)

The best game i think i did for online - and i only did 4 - was Shamrock Lock (if you play with the Fortune Bet on).