Q&A Ask Me Anything about Slots (AMA) 2020 with Trancemonkey

trancemonkey

Ueber Meister
Joined
Mar 29, 2013
Location
United Kingdom
Alot of casinos have £250.000 as max wins (minus progressive) in any slot game, I tend to avoid those casinos as miracles could happen

Under well regulated jurisdictions, its very hard nowadays to get away with anything...
Avoid Curacao casinos therefore...
 

wesleyhoulihan

Newbie member
PABnoaccred
Joined
Sep 17, 2018
Location
UK
Hi @trancemonkey , have a question about RTPs, not sure if it has already been answered.

When a brand new slot is released, the RTP they put on it - how is that calculated? I'm talking about modern day slots here that may have complex and highly volatile payout structures. Is it done by a sum of probability of every individual outcome or is it arrived at through testing? If by testing, is that testing by manufacturer or auditors? Can a manufacturer just say 'this slot has an RTP of 96%' and then as long as the return falls within a certain range after a reasonable number of spins (is there a testing minimal?), the slot would be approved and they would be allowed to label it with the 96% they said.

I'm just thinking that, because of how high the volatility of some of the games are these days, how the RTP that is quoted could deviate from the 'true' RTP from 1 million spins to the next 1 million spins could be the difference in a game being a 96% RTP and a 96.5% RTP.

Last question...I presume slots that are released using the same algorithm are not tested in the same way? ie. Its the algorithm that gets tested rather than the slot. Example that springs to mind is the endless Pragmatic slots that are released with a 96.5% RTP - is that just the same algorithm with a different front end?

Apologies...quite a lot in that!
 

neon claws

Experienced Member
Joined
Jan 5, 2020
Location
Australia
Hi @trancemonkey , have a question about RTPs, not sure if it has already been answered.

When a brand new slot is released, the RTP they put on it - how is that calculated? I'm talking about modern day slots here that may have complex and highly volatile payout structures. Is it done by a sum of probability of every individual outcome or is it arrived at through testing? If by testing, is that testing by manufacturer or auditors? Can a manufacturer just say 'this slot has an RTP of 96%' and then as long as the return falls within a certain range after a reasonable number of spins (is there a testing minimal?), the slot would be approved and they would be allowed to label it with the 96% they said.

I'm just thinking that, because of how high the volatility of some of the games are these days, how the RTP that is quoted could deviate from the 'true' RTP from 1 million spins to the next 1 million spins could be the difference in a game being a 96% RTP and a 96.5% RTP.

Last question...I presume slots that are released using the same algorithm are not tested in the same way? ie. Its the algorithm that gets tested rather than the slot. Example that springs to mind is the endless Pragmatic slots that are released with a 96.5% RTP - is that just the same algorithm with a different front end?

Apologies...quite a lot in that!
Same maths but reskinned doesn't need recertifying.
RTP is tested over billions of spins.. whether or not a monster hit is achieved on all that makes very little difference.
 

Kroffe

เ๓ ค Ŧคภςץ ๒єคг
MM
Joined
Mar 2, 2019
Location
sweden
@trancemonkey
I thought this kind of thing was not allowed.

Not all of them are easy to make out, but you can easily tell the $100 and the 8 (8 is the lowest amount of freespins, so if its single digit its 8) free games were going to drop in next spin, which they did.
And it wasnt a fluke, its for every spin.
I thought all outcomes were supposed to be possible for each separate spin.
This is from the basegame.

Skärmbild (412).png

Skärmbild (413).png
 

trancemonkey

Ueber Meister
Joined
Mar 29, 2013
Location
United Kingdom
@trancemonkey
I thought this kind of thing was not allowed.

Not all of them are easy to make out, but you can easily tell the $100 and the 8 (8 is the lowest amount of freespins, so if its single digit its 8) free games were going to drop in next spin, which they did.
And it wasnt a fluke, its for every spin.
I thought all outcomes were supposed to be possible for each separate spin.
This is from the basegame.

View attachment 149411

View attachment 149412
Persistence games are allowed in most markets... this is classed as a persistence feature. We do a lot of these...
 

Kroffe

เ๓ ค Ŧคภςץ ๒єคг
MM
Joined
Mar 2, 2019
Location
sweden
Persistence games are allowed in most markets... this is classed as a persistence feature. We do a lot of these...
Persistence games = fancy way of saying not random.

How many spins ahead are games allowed to be predetermined then, is it just the one or limitless?
 

trancemonkey

Ueber Meister
Joined
Mar 29, 2013
Location
United Kingdom
Persistence games = fancy way of saying not random.

How many spins ahead are games allowed to be predetermined then, is it just the one or limitless?
So, the rules are still valid - anything that is shown as "coming soon" needs to still be randomly determined - for example, i could have a game where every 20 spins, the next "feature" in a list activates, and i show you the list. What is shown on the list needs to be randomly determined, and the outcome when i activate the feature still needs to be random (if it's a feature). I agree that to a layman, this might seem weird - but it's still compliant and still passes all the tests required...
 

trancemonkey

Ueber Meister
Joined
Mar 29, 2013
Location
United Kingdom
Hi @trancemonkey , have a question about RTPs, not sure if it has already been answered.

When a brand new slot is released, the RTP they put on it - how is that calculated? I'm talking about modern day slots here that may have complex and highly volatile payout structures. Is it done by a sum of probability of every individual outcome or is it arrived at through testing? If by testing, is that testing by manufacturer or auditors? Can a manufacturer just say 'this slot has an RTP of 96%' and then as long as the return falls within a certain range after a reasonable number of spins (is there a testing minimal?), the slot would be approved and they would be allowed to label it with the 96% they said.

I'm just thinking that, because of how high the volatility of some of the games are these days, how the RTP that is quoted could deviate from the 'true' RTP from 1 million spins to the next 1 million spins could be the difference in a game being a 96% RTP and a 96.5% RTP.

Last question...I presume slots that are released using the same algorithm are not tested in the same way? ie. Its the algorithm that gets tested rather than the slot. Example that springs to mind is the endless Pragmatic slots that are released with a 96.5% RTP - is that just the same algorithm with a different front end?

Apologies...quite a lot in that!

The RTP is either calculated (in Excel for example) or simulated (if the game can't be calculated). When calculated, the maximum possible number of outcomes is known, so this RTP is precise over the cycle of the game. Where a game is simulated (for example, Bonanza, where in theory the free spins could go on forever, and so could the multiplier) we normally run a huge number of games (in the billions) to determine as best we can what the RTP is. A test lab will then do their own simulations (they write there own simulation using the data given) to prove that they also get the same RTP - if they match, they certify the game for that RTP. You can't say "this slot is 96%" unless it is exactly 96% and you have that certified.

The RTP is a theoretical number based on a very large number of games, so while this is what the game is "aiming for", in small play sessions, it could vary wildly - and of course, the higher the volatility, the more this varies. But yes, it could vary by 0.5% over a million games for sure on a high volatility game...

If you release a game that uses exactly the same maths (and the test lab would checksum / diff the maths files to prove they are the same), then the testing is much less onerous and simpler - though it still has to be certified and tested.
 

Kroffe

เ๓ ค Ŧคภςץ ๒єคг
MM
Joined
Mar 2, 2019
Location
sweden
So, the rules are still valid - anything that is shown as "coming soon" needs to still be randomly determined - for example, i could have a game where every 20 spins, the next "feature" in a list activates, and i show you the list. What is shown on the list needs to be randomly determined, and the outcome when i activate the feature still needs to be random (if it's a feature). I agree that to a layman, this might seem weird - but it's still compliant and still passes all the tests required...
How many spins ahead am i allowed to have a predetermined result?
Can i show a list of say 50 outcomes with a predetermined result as long as the outcomes were randomly determined at the beginning?
 

trancemonkey

Ueber Meister
Joined
Mar 29, 2013
Location
United Kingdom
How many spins ahead am i allowed to have a predetermined result?
Can i show a list of say 50 outcomes with a predetermined result as long as the outcomes were randomly determined at the beginning?
Yes I believe so as long as the list is visible to the player and the list is populated randomly and the game rules are clear about what is happening.
 

dionysus

Good(w)ill Ambassador
CAG
MM
Joined
Apr 27, 2009
Location
the land of snow and maple syrup
Kind of stretching the meaning of the word random imo.

View attachment 149446
tbf
As players become savvier, it's random to a 'relative value of random'
there's life analogies > stories you tell children (simplified) V ok, now here's it in advanced terms :p

ex: the Earth is round > the Earth is an ellipsoid > Earth is a geoid/oblate spheroid (roughly speaking)
 
Last edited:

paul7388

Ueber Meister
MM
Joined
Jan 8, 2014
Location
glasgow scotland
tbf
As players become savvier, it's random to a 'relative value of random'
there's life analogies > stories you tell children (simplified) V ok, now here's it in advanced terms :p

ex: the Eath is round > the Earth is an ellipsoid > Earth is a geoid/oblate spheroid (roughly speaking)

WTF. Use all the fancy words you want but I heard the Earth is actually flat.
 

dionysus

Good(w)ill Ambassador
CAG
MM
Joined
Apr 27, 2009
Location
the land of snow and maple syrup
The nice thing about the forum, is weve a resident guru - @trancemonkey - in that he's willing, as able to address Qs, and @Halvor, as I understand, to have good to great grasp.
I'm , perhaps, privvy to Qs and answers (pre-staff), but far, far from the expert and very maths-weak but get the fundamentals :p

Theyre both approachable FWIW :)
 

Cheatingg

Newbie member
Joined
Dec 16, 2020
Location
Helsinki
Hi

How does lowering the RTP works? For example Casino thinks now that its good idea to lower the RTP from 96% to 94% does they have kind of program to enter the right % and just press the Enter and now that slot running on 94% .. Or Casino has to contact provider to do it for them? Or how this things actually working?
 

Halvor

Experienced Member
Joined
Apr 3, 2018
Location
Malta
Hi

How does lowering the RTP works? For example Casino thinks now that its good idea to lower the RTP from 96% to 94% does they have kind of program to enter the right % and just press the Enter and now that slot running on 94% .. Or Casino has to contact provider to do it for them? Or how this things actually working?
Not all game providers offer for more RTP settings. And the casino themselves can not alter the setup of a game. So in these cases the RTP will not be possible to alter at all.

In instances where there are multiple RTP settings for a game, the casino would need to change the game version they host, they cant simply jump between RTP in a second, or move some ledger that changes it to whatever they want. The game will have been certified for one or more specific RTP versions.
 
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