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Are online table games truly random numbers?

Discussion in 'Online Casinos' started by GotToWinNow, Apr 8, 2005.

    Apr 8, 2005
  1. GotToWinNow

    GotToWinNow Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Mortgage Loan Coordinator
    Location:
    PA
    Hi, I’m new here and new to the world of gambling, being totally new to online gaming. This is my first post and forgive me if this question has been rehashed, but I’m not even familiar enough with gambling terminology to do a good search for what I’m looking for.

    I am wondering exactly what is meant by this payoff percentage I read about on online casinos? I have a home roulette wheel and have developed a strategy that has crushed the bank on this, as well as one internet casino that I have played at in “free play”. My buddy told me it WILL NOT work online, even if it works on a real wheel, because he read the internet casino software is manipulated to hold back a set percentage. I argued that should only be on games that are “set” such as slots, just as in a real casino. If a casino pays back say 97% of the money, is that a long-term statistical average, or a set hold-back monitored by the software?

    See, I like to play roulette and craps. As a new gambler, to me, it is much simpler to develop strategies and probabilities about the limited field of numbers that are clear on a pair of dice or a roulette wheel. I’ve actually played much more roulette and understand the game far better.

    In a “real” casino, dice and wheels are TRULY random. This does not mean that are not more often than not predictable, but that’s a whole different science. There is absolutely nothing that says the house will not take a brutal beating one particular night, or walk away with almost all money wagered the next night. The 5.26% or 2.63% house advantage is just the advantage on a distribution of numbers. I’m sure the house takes far more than that amount because most people don’t know when to quit.

    Is the roulette wheel on online software truly a random number or is it contingent upon my bet? Is the computer set to only let me run things up so far before it starts taking back its money? Is there anything that would keep me from turning $300 into $50,000, in theory?

    If I have a strategy that rocks, and I think I’m getting there, do I need to “hit and run” or could I run this thing out for weeks and keep running it up? In theory if it wins long-term, I could do whatever I wanted if there was true randomness, so I would think.
     
  2. Apr 8, 2005
  3. sirius

    sirius Senior Member

    Location:
    UK
    There is no system to beat the house edge of any game so don't bother trying. You are always expected to lose 2.7% or 5.26% of the total amount wagered. Almost any system can beat the roulette wheel but it is just luck. You could even be ahead in the 5.26% edge American Roulette (two green numbers) playing the even money bets for a couple of thousand spins if luck was on your side. If you played the more unlikely bets (such as a few numbers straight up) each time, even with the terrible house edge of American Roulette you could go tens of thousands of spins before it would be impossible to be ahead.
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2005
  4. Apr 8, 2005
  5. GrandMaster

    GrandMaster Ueber Meister CAG

    Occupation:
    Mathematician by day, online gambler by night.
    Location:
    UK
    You must register/login in order to see the link.
     
  6. Apr 9, 2005
  7. jpsartre

    jpsartre Dormant account

    Location:
    Denmark
    Not another one of those discussions...

    Just search the forum and you'll find plenty of threads that should interest you.
     
  8. Apr 9, 2005
  9. Flavio4321

    Flavio4321 Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Student
    Location:
    Spain
    pseudorandom numbers

    The numbers you see on internet roulette are generated using computers, which mean they are pseudorandom numbers, according to mathworld.wolfram.com this is .....

    A slightly archaic term for a computer-generated random number. The prefix pseudo- is used to distinguish this type of number from a "truly" random number generated by a random physical process such as radioactive decay. Eric Weisstein's World of Physics .........

    In my opinion decent casinos (any casino from meister list) has a pseudorandom number generator. This is the good news.

    Now, the bad news is I agree with GrandMaster and Sirius, you cant develope a system to beat a fair roulette game. You can read about systems in wizardofodds site, you have a link on grandmasters post.

    Best of luck to you, Flavio.
     
  10. Apr 9, 2005
  11. nafanny29

    nafanny29 Dormant account

    Occupation:
    financail adviser
    Location:
    London, England
    I believe Boss Media casinos use some sort of radioactive decay thingy to generate random numbers. (although I find it very hard to believe sometimes :lolup: )
     
  12. Apr 9, 2005
  13. GrandMaster

    GrandMaster Ueber Meister CAG

    Occupation:
    Mathematician by day, online gambler by night.
    Location:
    UK
    According to several casino websites, they use white noise from two independent Zener diodes.
     
  14. Apr 9, 2005
  15. Flavio4321

    Flavio4321 Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Student
    Location:
    Spain
    Which casinos are you talking about??, just curious.
     
  16. Apr 9, 2005
  17. eek

    eek Dormant account

    "Which casinos are you talking about??, just curious"
    He's talking about Boss casinos.
    ------------------------------------------

    No-one really knows. It's a secret.
    And no-one will ever know.
    And no-one knows if the randomness switch is 'on' or 'off' when they play.

    Internet casinos that were mobbed a couple of years ago are ghost sites now because of perceived riggedness, whether true or not.

    Poker is doing fine at the moment, but as usual, no-one can prove or disprove the randomness issue.

    ---------------------------

    The future is likely to be peer-to-peer stuff.
     
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2005
  18. Apr 9, 2005
  19. eek

    eek Dormant account

    Places like youplaygames.com had the idea of playing counterstrike etc for cash.
    The games community is MASSIVE compared to the gambling community, you can easily get 000's of players on a popular site at peak periods.

    However, players also know that these games are hacked to death and the cash concept died.

    You must register/login in order to see the link.

    You must register/login in order to see the link.
     
  20. Apr 10, 2005
  21. GotToWinNow

    GotToWinNow Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Mortgage Loan Coordinator
    Location:
    PA
    Thanks for all the imput and the links. It was all very useful and makes me question whether or not my system will hold up.

    My question for you would be, what about professional gamblers? While they may be few and far between, there are some individuals that basically earn their livelihood through gambling. That would seem to indicate that at least some forms of gambling can be beat in the long-term.
     
  22. Apr 10, 2005
  23. GotToWinNow

    GotToWinNow Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Mortgage Loan Coordinator
    Location:
    PA
    It would seem to me that one would be likely to experience results close to house advantage odds, if he were to play level bets on the same wager consistently. If I were to bet $1 x 100 spins on a roulette wheel and chose one color throughout the duration, I should probably walk away with something like $97 (European) and $94 (American). However, it would seem if I am betting progressive wagering series and changing the numbers I am betting on, I am going to walk away with considerably more, or less, than those figures.

    I am not questioning your expertise, but simply trying to understand all of this.
     
  24. Apr 10, 2005
  25. orangeindiana

    orangeindiana Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Student
    Location:
    Texas
    Did you check the link on betting systems by Wizard of Odds that Grandmaster gave you? Here it is again: You must register/login in order to see the link.

    Go here before you even consider using your system, or any others. There isn't a betting system or progression under the sun that can beat the house. The guy who runs the Wizard of Odds site, who is a professor at UNLV, offers $20,000 to anyone who can provide one that does. Only one person have ever seriously taken him up on it, and he failed. The page is a great read, and it'll probably answer any questions you'll have.

    Think about it this way -- gambling has been around a long, long, long time. A number of smart people with advanced degrees in math, computing, etc. etc. etc. have had plenty of time to develop a betting system that could beat the house. If one existed... why isn't it in use? Every week a gambler creates a system that he's convinced is new and is sure to break the bank. None work. Ever ever ever. Read the page, you'll love it.

    There are two single-player games where correct strategy and play can be used to push the odds in the player's favor: blackjack and some video poker games (if I've left any out, please correct me). In blackjack, this is done through a combination of knowing the correct play for every possible hand and other strategies such as card counting and shuffle tracking. In video poker, by playing correct strategy, some games are actually in favor of the player. Other professional gamblers rely on games such as poker, where the mathematical odds tend to favor each player equally. In none of these cases, though, do they use a betting system. While it may bring short term games, eventually you'll lose.
     
  26. Apr 10, 2005
  27. GotToWinNow

    GotToWinNow Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Mortgage Loan Coordinator
    Location:
    PA
    No, I did read the link pretty thoroughly. It was very interesting and unless there is some error with the guy's computer simulation (where can we get these programs ourselves?) I assume his testing is valid. All I'm saying is it seems hard to imagine such is the case when one thinks about it.

    The odd thing is that from what I've read, the house advantage in Blackjack as 1.5%, higher than the even money bets in craps and true European rules in Roulette. So it doesn't seem as though the mathematics in and of itself is the greatest factor in all of this. Some people will clean house with regular results in live poker games, because the human elements of bluffing come into full swing in the live game. Naturally, this wouldn't be a factor in video poker, which I've only spent $20 on one time at Casino Niagara. From what I've read, video poker machines are set like slots with the house advantage varying from near zero to as high as 15%.

    It all makes me curious. Let me know if you have any good video poker links.
     
  28. Apr 10, 2005
  29. Macgyver

    Macgyver Dormant account PABnononaccred

    Occupation:
    Student
    Location:
    North Carolina
    Where have you read that, and are you referring to online casinos or land casinos? :what:

    The odds I've heard about range from .3 - .7% for BJ.
     
  30. Apr 10, 2005
  31. Flavio4321

    Flavio4321 Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Student
    Location:
    Spain
    No, the house edge in a video poker machine is given by the paytable, I mean the house edge of a jacks or better video poker game with a given paytable is the same at each and every casino. Same thing with all the other videopoker variations. Again, go to wizardofodds.com, in the main page click on videopoker or any game you want, there you will find house edge and better strategy for a lot of vido poker games.

    Best of luck.
     
  32. Apr 10, 2005
  33. sirius

    sirius Senior Member

    Location:
    UK
    If you change the bet sizes, your range of probable outcomes will increase but the average result is the same as flatbetting the average bet size for the same number of spins. Varying your bets will increase the variance so you could win or lose more but the average loss is only determined by the total amount wagered and not how you vary the bets. Whatever your system is, you will be wagering x amount and that is what determines the average loss.
     
  34. Apr 11, 2005
  35. GotToWinNow

    GotToWinNow Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Mortgage Loan Coordinator
    Location:
    PA
    I kinda get what your saying. It will alter the range of outcomes and will ultimately produce a more extreme result one way or the other, but should still lose in the longrun.
     
  36. Apr 11, 2005
  37. GotToWinNow

    GotToWinNow Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Mortgage Loan Coordinator
    Location:
    PA
    I believe that book was talking only about land casinos, as it was a few years old.
     

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