Your Input Please Are Betat being too inflexible ???

[brianmon]

Tonight I made a deposit at Betat of £100, and took a bonus of 30 'super spins', although they weren't so 'super' at only £1 a spin, meaning basically £30 worth of spins for £100.
But that's not the problem, and my fault for not asking about the value first (i'm used to super spins being £2-£3 a spin)

The amount of lag and game errors was totally unacceptable.

So once I'd completed the WR and even though my balance was only £70. I couldn't wait to withdraw.
Now, although I'd deposited via Neteller, the withdrawal page told me the withdrawal had to be made to my Visa card.
Again, that's not the problem, as It's happened before, so I know Betat are very (if not a little too) strict in these cases

The problem is that my card was replaced a few weeks ago. So I contacted CS to offer my new card number...



Malin Tue, 06/21/16 01:11:41 am Europe/London

Hello. How may I help you?


brian 01:13:04 am

I'm being told i need to withdraw to visa card, even though my deposit was from neteller. BUT the visa card i have registered with you is no longer valid


Malin 01:14:41 am

Yes that's because you would need to cover the deposited amount first to each payment method. If the card is no longer in use you would need to provide confirmation to this, this may be a letter from your bank confirming the cancellation or a copy of the letter that came with your replacement card


brian 01:16:36 am

can I not just give you my new card number? it's just a replacement, with the last 2 digits changed. it's the same account and everything else
It has the same bank account number on it and the same sort code


Malin 01:19:14 am

We would need some kind of confirmation that the card has been replaced Brian, you should be able to find this on your online banking site or if you contact your bank
You can also provide a copy of the letter that came with your replacement card


brian 01:20:13 am

the card was replaced 2 weeks ago. do you really think i'd still have the letter which came with it?

it's a direct replacement. like i say, both cards have the same sort code and account numbers on them. I can send you a scan of the new card, so you can compare with the one on file


Malin 01:26:54 am

If you contact your bank I'm sure that you can get some confirmation regarding this cancellation of your card Brian

Is there anything else I may assist you with in the mean time?


brian 01:29:31 am

I'm not going to all that trouble of contacting my bank for a mere £70. I'll play on, and if i win enough to make it worthwhile, then I'll go to all that trouble. If i lose, I'll just close my account at betat


Malin 01:31:36 am

I'm sorry about any inconvenience Brian, if you have used a card and it's no longer active we would simply need to see some kind of proof of this, we can not just remove it without a confirmation that the card is no longer active. I hope you can understand


brian 01:31:57 am

The only reason i did stop playing was because i was getting sick of the constant errors

I could understand if it was a brand new card. but it's a replacement


So I closed the chat and carried on playing, and within a couple of minutes I'd doubled my balance to £140.

Right I thought, I'll just go through the withdrawal procedure and let the Betat finance department sort it out, when the withdrawal is sent back to them.

Is it not reasonable to expect to just send a scan of a replacement card ????

But whatever happens... It's cost them £70 more than I was withdrawing

 

[Harry_BKK]

Pain in the butt Brian, i know.

It split my last withdrawal between Ecopayz and Neteller just because some 3 months ago i used once Neteller for a deposit.

Regulations, regulations Not much they can do about it, unfortunately.

 

[brianmon]

Pain in the butt Brian, i know.

It split my last withdrawal between Ecopayz and Neteller just because some 3 months ago i used once Neteller for a deposit.

Regulations, regulations Not much they can do about it, unfortunately.

Like I said Splitting the withdrawal wasn't the problem.

It was their insistence that I contacted my bank to get proof that my card had been renewed, which was the problem

 

[Harry_BKK]

Like I said Splitting the withdrawal wasn't the problem.

It was their insistence that I contacted my bank to get proof that my card had been renewed, which was the problem

Yeah Brian, what i was rather referring to are the regulations against money laundering they have to adhere nowadays. Not much they can do differently if they want to stay compliant.

 

[brianmon]

Yeah Brian, what i was rather referring to are the regulations against money laundering they have to adhere nowadays. Not much they can do differently if they want to stay compliant.

Well they aren't being very compliant with the UKGC at the moment... Their MGS games still have the original autoplay settings, rather than the new limited settings that all the other UKGC sites now have

 

[Harry_BKK]

Well they aren't being very compliant with the UKGC at the moment... Their MGS games still have the original autoplay settings, rather than the new limited settings that all the other UKGC sites now have

That is indeed not very compliant.

 

[CM_BETAT]

Yeah Brian, what i was rather referring to are the regulations against money laundering they have to adhere nowadays. Not much they can do differently if they want to stay compliant.

Exactly.

If we follow regulation, we're the bad guys. If we dont follow it, we're the bad guys. If it was up to us we wouldnt be so draconian in these measures, but all it takes is for us to take one case lightly and a complaint is made, and you're slapped with a warning. I don't think people understand just how stringent the regulators are with these things.

Congratulations on your win Brianmon.

Karl

 

[Jono777]

Just a small thought, maybe a 'none starter' from the off.

Do you think yourselves/other casinos would accept a photo of the old card (clearly displaying that the expiry date has been reached) and then a copy of the new card (which banks usually send out a month or so prior to previous card expiring.

Most banks are pretty much 95% paperless these days so, not saying it will be the case here but can see members having problems and/or delays in obtaining these 'letters of proof' from their respective banks.

 

[brianmon]

Just a small thought, maybe a 'none starter' from the off.

Do you think yourselves/other casinos would accept a photo of the old card (clearly displaying that the expiry date has been reached) and then a copy of the new card (which banks usually send out a month or so prior to previous card expiring.

Most banks are pretty much 95% paperless these days so, not saying it will be the case here but can see members having problems and/or delays in obtaining these 'letters of proof' from their respective banks.

Exactly. They have my original card details, and I've sent a scan of my new card.

BOTH cards have the SAME bank account details ie. SAME sort code and SAME bank account number.

All that has changed is the issue and expiry dates, and 2 digits on the end of the long number.

in fact the new card shows it was issued 05/16

I'm not going to look stupid to my bank asking for a letter from them to prove that they've issued a new card, and no doubt, have to pay for that letter

 

[Tirilej]

Exactly. They have my original card details, and I've sent a scan of my new card.

BOTH cards have the SAME bank account details ie. SAME sort code and SAME bank account number.

All that has changed is the issue and expiry dates, and 2 digits on the end of the long number.

in fact the new card shows it was issued 05/16

I'm not going to look stupid to my bank asking for a letter from them to prove that they've issued a new card, and no doubt, have to pay for that letter

You verified the first one and now they should verify the new one the same way.
I see no reason to verify the first one again. It would be smarter to cut it and show the pieces.

I'm more worried about why they don't remove the games that are not following uk rules.

 

[brianmon]

You verified the first one and now they should verify the new one the same way.
I see no reason to verify the first one again. It would be smarter to cut it and show the pieces.

I'm more worried about why they don't remove the games that are not following uk rules.

Well I haven't actually disposed of it yet, So i'd quite happily cut it up and send a scan of the peices

 

[itsover2014]

All the other casinos I use, when I lose or replace my card they just remove it on request and let me add a new one.. This is the case at skybet, stanjames, jackpotjoy to name a few, if I was asked to get a letter from the bank when the new card is clearly a replacement with same account details I would go spare, not just that I have asked my bank for a letter like this before for something else and they would not provide this so I understand your frustration at this OP

 

[colinsunderland]

Exactly.

If we follow regulation, we're the bad guys. If we dont follow it, we're the bad guys. If it was up to us we wouldnt be so draconian in these measures, but all it takes is for us to take one case lightly and a complaint is made, and you're slapped with a warning. I don't think people understand just how stringent the regulators are with these things.

Congratulations on your win Brianmon.

Karl

I'm sorry but thats rubbish, but feel free to show where in the regulations that you need a letter from the bank showing the card has been replaced, rather than a scan of the new one, especially if it shows the bank account details as the same.

I replaced a card with Skybet around 3 weeks ago, I went onto live chat, said, my card has been replaced can you remove the one ending in xxxx please, 2 minutes later I got the reply saying, thats been done now, is there anything else I can help you with. No need for anything else whatsoever. In fact I have done that at about 8 casino's since I got the new card and not one has asked for what you are.

 

[hedgehok]

I think Betat would have done their due diligence if you send them a scan of the new card and some sort of proof that it's connected to the same bank account than the previous one that expired.

Many other casinos I play at are far more lenient when it comes to withdrawing between different payment options you previously used for deposits. Sometimes I'm quite happy that this whole gambling thing is not regulated properly in Germany. It can only get worse.

 

[brianmon]

I think Betat would have done their due diligence if you send them a scan of the new card and some sort of proof that it's connected to the same bank account than the previous one that expired.

Many other casinos I play at are far more lenient when it comes to withdrawing between different payment options you previously used for deposits. Sometimes I'm quite happy that this whole gambling thing is not regulated properly in Germany. It can only get worse.

I sent them a scan of the new card. and the proof that it's connected to the same bank account is that BOTH cards have the SAME sort code and bank account number printed on them

 

[brianmon]

Just received an email from Betat to say that they've now deactivated the old card and replaced it with the new one.

So what was the problem with just doing that in the first place ???????

 

[colinsunderland]

Just received an email from Betat to say that they've now deactivated the old card and replaced it with the new one.

So what was the problem with just doing that in the first place ???????

So, if what the rep said earlier was correct, they have now breached the regulations?

 

[vinylweatherman]

Casinos verify new methods by having the player make a deposit from them, and this is as per regulations. This would be a better way of handling this than the rigmarole of contacting the bank for a letter saying that they have replaced the card. If this was indeed part of anti money laundering regulations, the banks would be sending out these proofs as a matter of routine, and it wouldn't be a case of having to get them to write a bespoke letter.

Common sense tells you that you don't deliberately send money to a no longer valid bank account because it will either bounce back or get lost in the ether. Losing a players' money because you insisted on doing something daft is also going to get you into hot water with the regulators, and you will still owe this money to the player because you lost it, so it will end up getting paid twice.

ALL cards have a limited life span, it's how the system works, and how it's meant to work. If a card expires, the merchant is supposed to update any details it holds such that the new card is used. For some merchants, this has now been automated. I have a letter from my insurance that tells me that if my card has been replaced since last year, the bank may have automatically provided the merchant with the new card details such that I don't need to do anything to have the payment taken automatically.

It is true that one is supposed to send withdrawals back to the method of deposit, but only where this original method is still valid. If it's no longer valid, then the next valid method in the hierarchy should be used. If the deposits are made by MasterCard, it's not even possible to send withdrawals back to the card, yet this does not break money laundering regs, nor has the regulator blanket banned the use of MasterCard in the industry because withdrawals always have to be sent via an alternative method.

All of these problems would be irrelevant if players used eWallets like Neteller, which an increasing number of casinos discourage. Neteller do not routinely issue new account numbers every 3 years like the banks do with cards, so it's always possible to stick strictly to these regulations when players ONLY deposit via Neteller.

This case is not about "regulations", but about "company policy".


However, it's not necessarily the case that sending the money back to an expired card will cause it to get lost. This is an eventuality that the banks have had to deal with before, and whilst the card may have expired, the bank will have to store the data for at least 6 more years, so if a payment comes back to an old card within those 6 years, the bank should be able to reunite it with it's owner. Most refunds from online retailers work like this, they just process the transaction as a refund against the card they have on record, and if it has expired within the last few months, the banks deal with it and the money ends up with the customer. If such refunds were getting lost on a regular basis, it would already have been an issue for the banks, and changes would have been made.

It is therefore likely to be pretty safe to allow a casino to process a withdrawal back to a recently expired card, but it would help if this was explained to players in this predicament rather than just throwing "regulations" at them as if this is a satisfactory explanation. More worryingly, it's also possible for a merchant to take a payment from a recently expired card if it's coded as a "continuous payment authority", this too is something that has been put in place to protect customers from not paying important regular bills just because the bank has replaced their card.

To get an old card truly blocked from all activity, it has to be dealt with as "lost or stolen" by the bank, rather than just "expired".

 

[nutnut]

ome casinos exist to make withdrawals a pain in the arse, funny how they never ask for all this whilst depositing!

 

[Igor82]

Just received an email from Betat to say that they've now deactivated the old card and replaced it with the new one.

So what was the problem with just doing that in the first place ???????

You omitted that you sent the required scan of the card.

As for regulation and i'll keep this short (since some clever fold here called us out) - its a simple AML source of funds rule. PAyouts must be returned to the source of funds.

Say your card gets scanned on an ATM and sold on black market. Some hacker uses it to deposit and empty your account, plays a tiny amount (1x turnover) and asks to withdraw the balance to a different payment method or card... the rule prevents this money to be laundered as we will demand the funds to be paid out to the originating source.

This rule is as old as time and 15 years ago when i started working for largest British operators - it was the primary AML rule. Not that we have to justify to anyone whether it is regulation or not mind you - its in the terms and its our policy. Its a good policy at that and prevented many-a-crook.

Thanks

 

[Igor82]

ome casinos exist to make withdrawals a pain in the arse, funny how they never ask for all this whilst depositing!

Thankfully, meister minions would attest ours isn't one of them.

 

[Naok777]

This is far from the first time (not just talking about Betat specifically) issues have showed up regarding withdrawals where a card has been replaced.

The regulators need to wake up, realize most players won't have any access to old cards / barely get any paperwork from Banks and update the rules they impose on Casinos accordingly.

 

[nutnut]

Thankfully, meister minions would attest ours isn't one of them.

Whilst I agree, i still find it funny in general the industry only makes a effort to verify once a withdrawal is made. Surely if someone was using a stolen debit card or hacked accounts, it makes sense to verify before they deposit not at withdrawal stage. This benefits you the casino more, because if it was stolen you would have to refund all deposits anyway, so i don't understand the lack of id verification until its at the withdrawal stage.

 

[brianmon]

You omitted that you sent the required scan of the card.

As for regulation and i'll keep this short (since some clever fold here called us out) - its a simple AML source of funds rule. PAyouts must be returned to the source of funds.

Say your card gets scanned on an ATM and sold on black market. Some hacker uses it to deposit and empty your account, plays a tiny amount (1x turnover) and asks to withdraw the balance to a different payment method or card... the rule prevents this money to be laundered as we will demand the funds to be paid out to the originating source.

This rule is as old as time and 15 years ago when i started working for largest British operators - it was the primary AML rule. Not that we have to justify to anyone whether it is regulation or not mind you - its in the terms and its our policy. Its a good policy at that and prevented many-a-crook.

Thanks

I sent a scan of my new card, even though I wasn't ask for it, but was told I'd need a letter from my bank.
The email was sent at 01:49 this morning, straight after making the second withdrawal request.

NO ONE has or had requested I send a scan. I sent it of my own volition.

The email I sent was acknowledged. and has the time marked on it.



I completely understand about the money laundering rules. I wasn't asking to withdraw to a different account. although I originally requested a withdrawal back to Neteller, since that's where the deposit originated from, I accepted that it had to be withdrawn to my Visa card. Most casinos I play at actually INSIST on withdrawing back to the deposit method. But like I say, that wasn't a problem, It's happened before

The problem was that BOTH cards were attached to the same bank account, they had the same sort code and account number printed on them and the visa deposit you were covering was from a month or so back.

 

[Harry_BKK]

OK, this is not in defense of casinos or anybody else but i think every player should ensure that all the details are up to date and the casino confirms that all is OK.

My rules to which is stick 1000% ever since i started online gambling:

- new casino registration --> get docs approved before even thinking to deposit
- any change in payment methods/address etc --> update casino details first and only carry on depositing once i have a confirmation email.

Up to this day following these 2 simple rules ensured I never ever had any trouble with deposits/withdrawals or delays of any sort.