Are Bet365 cheating on their game(s)?

I was in touch with Bet365 again, and I believe the matter is settled. Their response was that the frequency of the cards dealt is weighted (as observed). For example, according to the math I was given, winning with three 9's occurs about 5 times as often as winning with 3 aces.

They indicated to me that the game has been moved to their arcade game section. I think it was unreasonable that the game was ever listed as a card game, but I have no complaint about it being located in the arcade section.
 
I was in touch with Bet365 again, and I believe the matter is settled. Their response was that the frequency of the cards dealt is weighted (as observed). For example, according to the math I was given, winning with three 9's occurs about 5 times as often as winning with 3 aces.

They indicated to me that the game has been moved to their arcade game section. I think it was unreasonable that the game was ever listed as a card game, but I have no complaint about it being located in the arcade section.

They should also remove the word "random" from the game guides, as this is not even a SLOT in the traditional sense, more like a "classic" slot of old where reel weightings rather than long reelstrips were used. So long as players understand that the "arcade" section is not necessarily random in terms of the "natural odds" of the game as presented, this should not be a problem.

Game developers could avoid this kind of incident by making it clear when a game is weighted, compensated, etc, rather than being traditionally random. I am sure UK players would expect an "arcade" game to be at least weighted in some way, but players from elsewhere may not.
 
Game developers could avoid this kind of incident by making it clear when a game is weighted, compensated, etc, rather than being traditionally random.
This is the first time I have seen a card game that uses "weights." I find it surprising that any online software vendor would create a game like this, it is clearly a very bad idea.

In US land based casinos there is a regulation that if any representation is made in a video device that corresponds to a physical device (dice, cards, roulette wheel, bingo balls, etc.) then the odds of each outcome in the video representation must match the odds of the physical device. Thus, you cannot play a video poker game in a US land based casino with weighted card outcomes.
 
wake up people, casino games are not random, all eye candy.

Quite a revelation.

On what facts do you base your claim?

Can I assume that you, like Westland Bowl, no longer play online as a result? I respect WB for having the courage of his convictions.....after all, one would be very silly to continue playing games that are so incredibly rigged, wouldn't one?
 
I was in touch with Bet365 again, and I believe the matter is settled. Their response was that the frequency of the cards dealt is weighted (as observed). For example, according to the math I was given, winning with three 9's occurs about 5 times as often as winning with 3 aces.
In my experience with this game, the probability of a 9 is about 5 times as high as that of an ace (talking about individual cards).
 
This is the first time I have seen a card game that uses "weights." I find it surprising that any online software vendor would create a game like this, it is clearly a very bad idea.

In US land based casinos there is a regulation that if any representation is made in a video device that corresponds to a physical device (dice, cards, roulette wheel, bingo balls, etc.) then the odds of each outcome in the video representation must match the odds of the physical device. Thus, you cannot play a video poker game in a US land based casino with weighted card outcomes.

There have been a few "arcade" video poker, roulette, and blackjack games in the UK. They were simply rather unusual "Fruit machines", and with a 70% to 80% RTP to match. As you say, you would NEVER see this in "proper" casinos such as Vegas, so given that this game was developed for a global audience, not just the UK, this was a VERY careless shortcut. Rather than weighting a 6 card deck, they should have developed these odds naturally by creating a deck with 5 time as many 9 cards as Aces, and given details of the deck composition in the guide. They could then have dealt cards naturally, but achieved the same probabilities of outcome.

The other problem is that every time something like this gets "busted", it dents faith in the fair and random nature of other casino games, and those that question fairness in other card games would cite this example to back up their claim that even though there is no need to "cheat" and weight a card game, it is nevertheless done in some cases.

Even adding these games to an "arcade" section is not enough, as this is very much a UK concept when it comes to gambling, as "arcade" games in places like the US are primarily video games, where you buy a period of play, rather than gamble on an outcome of play. In most UK holiday resorts, the "arcade" is a mix of video games, penny push, and fruit machines. Another thing that many will find strange is that a class of fruit machine has been developed for children, often running on 2p, 5p, and more recently 10p. These are scattered among the other games, and fruit machines with larger stakes and jackpots are in a separate adult only area. It used to be even worse, with no age restriction on fruit machine play. If you could reach the slot, you were old enough to play. I started on the fruit machines at the age of around 7 to 8, all perfectly legal, but only once a year when on holiday. This might be why UK players sometimes strike fear into the hearts of online operators;)
 
I was in touch with Bet365 again, and I believe the matter is settled. Their response was that the frequency of the cards dealt is weighted (as observed). For example, according to the math I was given, winning with three 9's occurs about 5 times as often as winning with 3 aces.

They indicated to me that the game has been moved to their arcade game section. I think it was unreasonable that the game was ever listed as a card game, but I have no complaint about it being located in the arcade section.

While I see that the game now has a disclaimer

"The cards drawn are either 9, 10, J, Q, K & A. No deck is used, instead each card value has a different weighting so lower value cards are drawn more regularly than higher cards (i.e. The probability of drawing an ‘ace’ is not equal to drawing a ‘nine’). The higher the card value the higher the payout should you get ‘Three of a Kind’."

I do not find this response satisfactory.

They are not cards at all, this is just a slot, you cannot 'weight' cards unless you are a Mafia card cheat, maybe. It is impossible.

The game should be redesigned in order to make it immediately apparent that it is a slot.

The other games in the 'arcade' section do not behave in this way; 'Shut the Box', for example is a dice game where the RTP can be calculated by analysis of dice probabilities (1 in 6 for any given number is the basis), in 'Digit', each number of 1 to 9 has an equal probability and again you can calculate the RTP, for the various 'Top Trumps' games you can fairly trivially make a note of the cards in the deck and again derive an RTP (probably around 95%).

While Bet365 is regulated in Gibraltar, the Alderney regulations state for example:

'Games should not give the customer a false expectation of better odds by falsely representing any occurrence or event.'

and

'Where a game is represented or implied to be a simulation of a physical device, the behaviour of the simulation should be identical to the expected behaviour of the physical device.
a) The visual representation of the device should correspond to the features of the physical device.
b) The probability of any event occurring should be as for the actual physical device E.g. the probability of obtaining a “six” on a simulated dice throw should be 1/6.
c) Where the game simulates multiple physical devices that would be expected to be independent of one another, each simulated device should be independent of the other simulated devices.
d) Where the game simulates physical devices that have no memory of previous events, the behaviour of the simulations should be independent of and not correlated with their previous behaviour so as to be non-adaptive and unpredictable in practice.'

The game is just another slot and should be sent back to the manufacturers until it is designed properly so that it doesn't mislead. The game violates fair gaming principles codified in the regulations of at least one jurisdiction and perhaps more.

In the mean time Bet365 need to REFUND all money lost on this game. It's clearly not fair, and a disclaimer in the help file doesn't make up for it.

Their response to the 'Killer Ace' complaint is equally slapdash and unsatisfactory.

There is no rollover game description in the game board, to explain that the 'Black', 'Red', and Suits bets don't pay out for an Ace.

The update they have effected to their help file is lazy and shows every sign of not being proofread or properly thought through.

Here it is (new text highlighted):

Killer Ace offers a large selection of betting options including:

Making multiple bets within one game.
Mixed chips on the same bet i.e. 1 + 10 = 11 units staked.
Placing chips in between two or four different numbers (on the single numbers section). This will split the bet over the numbers highlighted.
Select 'Odd/Even' to stake the turn of any even or odd card. Aces do not count in an Odd/Even bet.
To select the turn of any numbered card of a particular suit, place chips on the applicable symbol within the gaming area.
Choose Red/Black to anticipate the dealing of any red or black card. Aces do not count in a Red/Black bet.
Any single card number, irrespective of suit or colour.
Groups of numbers 2 through 7 or 8 through K.

As you can see the language is confusing, the help text is poorly structured and they've not even updated the right sections within the help.

The odd/even bet was never in dispute - the mouseover on the betting felt shows that Aces are not included, this is made obvious from the fact that there are 13 denominations, and that the Ace is the only one not paired with another denomination. The problem was with the Red/Black and Suit bets. However they have not updated the text of the suit bet, so it still appears that you should win if you bet on a suit and get an Ace.

'Aces do not count' is far from clear, either.

The help text is, and was, crap.

' Making multiple bets within one game. ' found directly under the heading 'Bet Types'
is not a bet type and it just confuses the simple task of explaining how the bets work.

I strongly believe, based on this evidence, that Bet365 do not have anyone working for them that understands the games they are offering.

How hard would it have been to post something like this:

Game Rules:
In the game Killer Ace, you place bets on the next card to be drawn from a deck of cards.
In Killer Ace, Aces are 'killer', which means that only bets placed on the 'Ace' denomination win - all other bets lose.

(The above tells you all you really need to know, but here follows more text)

Specific bets:
Suit: Pays 4* your bet, if the next card is of the suit you bet on. If the next card is an Ace, this bet loses, regardless of its suit.
Even: Pays 2* your bet, if the next card is a 2, 4, 6, 8, 10 or Q.
Odd: Pays 2* your bet, if the next card is a 3, 5, 7, 9, J or K.
2-7: Pays 2* your bet if the next card is a 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 or 7.
8-K: Pays 2* your bet if the next card is a 8, 9, 10, J, Q or K.
Red: Pays 2 * your bet if the next card is Red. If the next card is an Ace, regardless of colour, the bet loses.
Black: Pays 2 * your bet if the next card is Red. If the next card is a Ace, regardless of colour, the bet loses.
Denomation: Pays 12.6 * your bet if the next card is of the chosen denomination.
A/2/8: Pays 4.2 * your bet if the next card is an Ace, 2 or 8.
Two denomination bet: Pays 6.3 * your bet if the next card is of either of the two neighbouring denomations you bet on.
Four denomination bet: Pays 3.15 * your bet if the next card is one of the four neighbouring denomations you bet on.

It defies belief that they are accused of cheating, they take the games offline and they respond with such a half-assed and inadequate updating of a couple of helpfiles. The Killer Ace game is still not clear enough either on the game board or in the help file. Does their vendor not supply them with proper helpfiles? Or do they just like to 'roll their own'? (if so, they need to employ someone who is capable of writing lucid explanations

Why have I not been refunded for the bet I placed on 'Black', which lost when I drew a black Ace?

I have no doubt at all that all bets on Suits, Red or Black, should be refunded where the player lost because of an Ace. Why have they not acted to identify the players affected and to issue them with refunds? I can see no excuse for not having done so.
 
Bet365 have no problems with decieving their customers. I asked them about this some weeks ago, and their support rep claimed it was a casino game, and that it was fair like all the other games they have...
 
Bet365 have no problems with decieving their customers. I asked them about this some weeks ago, and their support rep claimed it was a casino game, and that it was fair like all the other games they have...

Since this came from an employee of the company, it is no defence to claim the CS made a mistake hoping to "get off". Rules don't work like this, ask any UK motorist who finds that however innocent their mistake, they still have to pay the fine because "rules are rules".

It may not be "cheating", but it is certainly "deception". The game should be redesigned so that it does not look like multi-hand VP, but like a multispin "poker slot". It would then behave as expected, as it could use weighting, or longer reelstrips with more of the low cards than the high ones.
 
How is this forgivable?

This whole thing just seems unbelievably shady and needs more exposure. The fact of the matter is for years they represented these games as casino card games, not arcade. Countless people placed wagers in trust and misinformed understanding of the actual odds of the games. They profited heavily no doubt from this, and all is supposed to be forgiven now?

If this took place at a vegas casino the NGC would yank the license and have no doubt criminal charges as a result.

They knew exactly what they were doing and only changed the positioning of the games into the arcade section when they were called out on it en masse on a respected casino web forum.
 
I note that both 'Killer Ace' and 'Three Of A Kind' are now not available in Free Play mode, you need to log in with your Bet365 account to get access to them.

(And oddly enough, they're the only two arcade games that can't be accessed in Free Play mode....)

I deposited 10UKP into my Bet365 account to take a look at the game itself, and can confirm that the wording in the rules is as already posted, with regards to the 'weighting' (!?!?!) of the cards. The game itself is pretty rubbish, you only need to play a few hands to realise that it's stacked MASSIVELY in favour of the 9s, and to a lesser extent 10s. There's zero player interaction too.

It is effectively a slot game and IMO should be presented it such, it has no business whatsoever being presented as a card game, with or without the disclaimer that most people won't even read and I suspect some people wouldn't even understand.

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