Are All Software Features And Bonuses Pre - Determined?

GGW Laurie

Dormant Account
Joined
Jun 16, 2006
Location
In the Beautiful South !!
I found out just a little while ago from 3 dice that all the features are already pre determined, this has me wondering about other software casinos, are they the same, if i hit a feature at inetbet on goldbeard or sunken treasures , has it already determined what my win will be, the same goes for rival, if your playing scary rich, are those spins also going to be pre determined ?

This just doesnt seem fair to me and takes the fun out of it now. i had asked as i made several deposits at 3 dice and decided to bet bigger amounts and it just kept freezing up and losing connection , sometimes during bonus rounds, rather frustratng imo, i checked inetbet and some other casinos, no problems there, i asked about this and that was when i was told, i think this really stinks if you ask me. i still like to play at 3 dice but this sure did burst my bubble and leaves me thinking about randoms and such now.

This is one of the frozen shots, or it would be spinning but nothing moving , enzo needs to check into this if anyone else has had the same problems.
 

dcpam39

Dormant account
Joined
Nov 12, 2006
Location
East Coast
I think that they are all pre-determined. I have been disconnected at the end of bonus rounds at sloto cash, and inet; reconnected---the bonus rounds replayed and I won the exact same amount.
 

winbig

Keep winning this amount.
Joined
Mar 10, 2005
Location
Pennsylvania
I don't think they are at MG casinos...I've been disconnected a few times during a bonus round and when I reconnected it picked up right where it left off...
 

jas2587

Ueber Meister
Joined
Apr 25, 2006
Location
FL
I don't think they are at MG casinos...I've been disconnected a few times during a bonus round and when I reconnected it picked up right where it left off...

Micro is predetermined also they just don't make ya go thru the torture of all the spins from start to finish

I was playing at a unnamed casino on a few occasions last week an I even said in chat dang whats up with the connection the game kept freezing etc I had 2 leave reboot an restart the casino an it was still messed up all that was said was I'm sorry Cindy which was cool I knew that that person couldn't do a thing about it

but yeah I believe all are predetermined

Cindy
 

rockycatt

meistercatt
Joined
Oct 26, 2008
Location
Boston
Heres the way i look at it ok you pay a man to fish in his pond he promises
to stock it with fish you keep the fish you catch[you also bring your own bait .
so it's a understanding that he must keep the pond stocked with fish=
[wins=fish]
corect me if im off RC
 
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binshakindown

Dormant Account
Joined
May 24, 2008
Location
CO
I would think that it shouldn't matter,

since all the spins at the instant that the play is started, the win is determined. It doesn't seem any different: win bonus, random predetemined amount is won, our coins last longer cause we get to watch the reels spin on the bonus. It would seem that the software providers could make the bonus pay immediately, but what is the fun in that (unless it is a big payout :))
 

DogBoy001

Dormant Account
webmeister
Joined
Jul 24, 2008
Location
Great Southern Land
I found out just a little while ago from 3 dice that all the features are already pre determined, this has me wondering about other software casinos, are they the same, if i hit a feature at inetbet on goldbeard or sunken treasures , has it already determined what my win will be, the same goes for rival, if your playing scary rich, are those spins also going to be pre determined ?

Heya,

Pre-determined is a tricky term to use, and would likely only be used in cases where the software actually operates by checking first to see what prize to award, and then displaying the appropriate result.

This contrasts with truly random systems (which includes RTG), where the stop position of each reel is independently determined by the RNG, and then a subsequent win evaluation routine is run to determine whether a winning combination has occurred.
In the case of a feature such as free spins, each spin would be another random request for stop locations, with win evaluation then following each spin.

In some instances system providers using truly random generation of results request all the results for a free game sequence at the time of trigger.
e.g.: After a random trigger of say 15 free games the game engine generates 15 more random game results for the feature (or more if one or more of those were to yield a re-trigger, for instance).
Each result is still random, it's just that it might all be generated at the outset of the feature.

Woooof
 

slotplayer

Paleo Meister (means really, really old)
webmeister
Joined
Oct 11, 2006
Location
USA
Well I don't know about online but I saw an interview with a land casino slot manufacturer and he said the bonus rounds were not predetermined.

However, every notice with the online casinos when you get the free spins retriggered there are a bunch of non-winning spins in there.

I don't think they are at MG casinos...I've been disconnected a few times during a bonus round and when I reconnected it picked up right where it left off...

That's just because the MG casinos keep track of the session data. Ever see the port lights blink at each spin?
I wonder if they send the next spin's random number? I did noticed when the traffic is erattic the game hits really good. I got 3 consecutive bonus rounds on Jonny Spector last time that happened.
 

CasinoKidd

Dormant Account
Joined
Feb 8, 2008
Location
Rochester NY
In regards to the technical aspect, 3 Dice pisses me off. Numerous occasions something like this goes down: Mona's tourney starts in 3 minutes... switch over to her tourney... first few spins go fine... and then it disconnects. The thing that's such a joke is that it auto-reconnects, but then you get disconnected again... then it auto-reconnects... and disconnects you again... it's this cycle that endlessly pisses you off. By the time you shut down the software, restart it, the tourney is half over..


And this hasn't happened "just once". :axeman:
 

SteveCut

Dormant account
Joined
Nov 3, 2007
Location
EU
Lauriejim wrote:
I found out just a little while ago from 3 dice that all the features are already pre determined, this has me wondering about other software casinos, are they the same, if i hit a feature at inetbet on goldbeard or sunken treasures , has it already determined what my win will be, the same goes for rival, if your playing scary rich, are those spins also going to be pre determined ?

This just doesnt seem fair to me and takes the fun out of it now.

I don't see how it makes any difference. It's not as if some casino employee sits down and writes out a pre-determined list for every spin for every player. If it's pre-determined that will mean that the RNG will have already pumped out a sequence of results, stuck them in a queue and the next result in the queue will be allocated for each spin. If it's not pre-determined then the RNG will generate a result on a spin by spin basis. The only difference is the time that the results are generated. This changes nothing from the player's perspective.

It's a bit like a football match. Sometimes when my team plays live on t.v., I'm not free to watch them. What I can do, is avoid hearing the result (that's the difficult part!) and watch the match the next day when it's repeated. The fact that the result is pre-determined does not alter my enjoyment of the match as long as I know nothing of what has already happened. To me it is "as live". In the same way as playing a no-skill game like slots, I have no influence over the result so it doesn't matter if the result is pre-determined (watched as a repeat) or determined in real-time (watched (at the time it's played). In fact you could argue that both are exactly the same, as both events happened in my past, just one is further in my past than the other.

What may worry you more is the likelihood that the whole of our universe is determined i.e. it's already there and we are just travellers through the spacetime loaf. But that discussion is probably best left to a different thread :)
 

3Dice

I-Gaming Industry Representative
Joined
Feb 14, 2007
Location
-
Hi Guys,

This topic keeps coming back and it always feels like the audience gets split in two groups that are - imho - talking about two completely different things. So I thought I'd tackle this issue once and for all and instead of just telling you what I think predetermined means - lets just skip the semantics and detail exactly when exactly what gets determined - and why.

I'll explain what the situation is for 3Dice software, but since the principles behind the decisions are of a technical nature (response time, server load etc), I suspect other casino software developers to have made the same choices.

scenario 1. Regular Slot Spin.

1. customer presses spin in casino client software.
2. casino client software transmits bet info to the server.
3. server generates random result : it generates the position of the 5 reels at once and sends it back to the client.
4. the client receives the result and shows the reels one by one

In a physical old-style slot machine, the position of a reel is only determined when that reel stops. In the electronical version that would be the equivalent of the server sending 5 individual posts back, one for each real. Because that means much more communication, and would make your slot machine jittery - the casino collapses those 5 communication steps into just one and sends you the position of the 5 reels all at once. (it actually uses the spinning reels to 'hide' waiting for the server .. sending the bet and receiving a response can take up to 2 or 3 seconds, doing it for each reel seperately would mean slow games ..)

This implies that the moment your first reel stops, the software on your computer has already received the information on all the reels so if someone wants to call it that - by the time your first reel stops in a regular spin - the last reel is predetermined. This of course changes nothing about the fact that the reel positions are completely random, it only means the random positions of those reals were determined slightly earlier.

Scenario 2. Free spins.

1. customer presses spin in casino client software.
2. casino client software transmits bet info to the server.
3. server generates random result : it generates the position of the 5 reels at once and sends it back to the client.
4. the client receives the result and shows the reels one by one - it also receives from the server how many freespins are still left.
5. if there are still freespins left it sends a 'next freespin' communication to the server. Then repeat step 4 and 5 until no more freespins left.

As you can see, this scenario is completely the same as that of a regular spin. If you have already received say 6 of 10 freespins, and you unplug your power, the outcome of the following freespins is not yet determined. The casino client software will communicate with the server for each spin, and each spin the server will generate and send the next outcome.

When you hit 3 scatters, the server does not know how much you will win. Just like you it has to wait till all the spins are executed.

Scenario 3. Bonus Game

1. customer presses spin in casino client software.
2. casino client software transmits bet info to the server.
3. server generates random result : it generates the position of the 5 reels at once and sends it back to the client. If a bonus game is triggered, it also generates random bonus outcomes and sends those back. (e.g. the money won per squirrel)
4. the client receives the result and shows the reels one by one
5. client software displays bonus game and awards prizes as received from the server.
6. client software transmits to the server that the user has finished the bonus game.

As you can see, for a bonus game, the winamounts are determined together with the spin. This is because delaying determining the amount until you actually hit the squirrel would make the game unplayable .. it would mean clicking a squirrel and then sending the info to the server to see how much that squirrel is worth so that up to two seconds later you see the result... So instead, on the spin the winamounts for the squirrels (or equivalent) are generated and the client can display them instantly as you click.

The fact that the info gets generated on the spin makes no difference at all .. if we would do it per squirrel, we would send a packet to the server 20 times who would draw a random number for each request and reply 20 times (average time spent in communication : 20*2 seconds = 40 seconds of waiting ..). Now, the server generates 20 random numbers at once and sends them to the client it even sends them together with the reels that trigger it so no extra time is spent waiting.. It would be no fun to get a 'connecting..' box in all the bonus games ..

In general, the 3Dice software will try to generate its random numbers as close as possible to the moment you bet or click. If things are generated ahead of display, then this is always to avoid communication stalls. (like sending the 5 reels in one post instead of 5). To end with a philosophical note, things are always generated before you perceive them as information cannot travel faster than the speed of light. How long ahead of time something is generated and how random it is are two completely unrelated things.

Hope this sheds some light ;)

Regards,

Enzo
 
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