Any casino/rep willing to step up and promote high RTP

bamberfishcake

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All the time developing technology is one thing where some have big differences, some can operate with much smaller staff because of many tasks can be automated which wouldn't maybe possible some time ago, some are engaged to their platforms, have made loads of own integrations but if could now choose, would end up to different solution as some start to be really outdated. Investing to rebuild everything to new platform is quite huge project and costs which is not done in short time with very small investment.

Completely agree. Restructuring and changing tech can be costly. Usually done for the cost saving benefit in the long run though.

If a casino said we are lowering rtp on some providers due to this but aim to put it back up by 2022 i would stay loyal if i had been like VS for example and play what i could at max.


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Staff costs is one thing where some are able to operate with much less staff in payments, compliance and other things what can be done more automatically but maybe couldn't some years ago. When you make deals with payment providers/game providers, you have huge advantage if you are big and execute much more transactions, you are in much better position to negotiate if you are one of these big corporations than you are stand alone casino with smaller volumes. With game providers is quite obvious that if you have 10 times more volume than some other, you can negotiate better deal, they can cut their margins a bit as volume keeps profit same. Like in most of businesses, you have big advantage when you are big corporation like if you compare corner store and tesco to negotiate with developers, i have no doubts their deals are different.
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I know payment providers, costs and the industry well enough to know the charges will be based per transaction.

Therefore you only pay for what you put through, so more customers = more costs. We know also, for a casino, for a fact - more customers = more profit. This is a necessary cost relative to the throughput. I also know it is very, very competitive in terms of % cost per transaction so a less popular casino will be paying less.

Gateway costs can vary if you develop your own. Most are bolt on provided by the Acquirer. Again relative to the casino size i believe in most cases.


[/QUOTE]
Around same size casinos (if you look deposits or GGR) can have surprisingly different operations costs and therefore profit margins as well, like in every industry, some companies are healthier than others and have more optimized cost structure which might have begun already from planning the whole product.

Costs and incomes in every businesses are bit more complex than just compare company A and B, all have their own twists in their business models in every industry, that's why pointing one single part of business model that A can do this, B should also but they just don't want and are greedy is not really telling all the truth even it seems to be quite simplified opinion here.

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Yes all businesses are different and some are run better than others.

Ill come back to the greed assumption.


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RTP for some can be one and only thing what matters, for some others there are some other things as well like here are some great casinos which are really liked here even they don't have all games with max RTP, maybe they are just greedy.

All stock listed companies (mainly big ones) have their numbers quite well opened every quarter, just by going through their reports can give more view about where numbers are coming and companies operations, many of these companies are much more than casino sites (have remarkable B2B business, investing to different things etc..). Now have been time when many have published their Q1 results which are all public.

Not saying that people are not allowed to compare products, only that without much knowledge about company insights, it's just not really great argument that "Tesco can sell can of beer with XX cents and other store is greedy and asking X cents more, if Tesco can operate with that price, all others should and everything else is greediness" where quite many short cuts to assumptions have been taken.

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RTP is not the only thing that matters but we are talking about accredited casinos. When i said RTP is the only real point to consider i should have stated 'once you have found their trustworthy, pay etc'.

Tescos power is in the buying which affords them to sell the products cheaper not to sell a worse product for the same money. Sorry, but i dont understand that comparison either or about the companies being much more than just casinos. They are run as individual businesses and cost centres regardless of group i would have thought.


[/QUOTE]
Reps can't disclose too much internal information (which in most of companies is strictly confidental) which leaves many assumptions to be facts as they can't be corrected. I personally don't mind how people want to make statements, just my two cents that if A is doing something, all others who don't do same are greedy, is just not really accurate statement without backing it with any facts.
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Afraid i dont have the time to go through company reports though i would like to :)

If they were more open i might be more inclined to back what i am saying with evidence.

With the reps not being able to discuss their decisions for pushing a cheaper product at the same price then people will speculate because there is nothing left to do.

That's what this thread and many others i have read are doing. Its mostly speculation without the written reports but who will post or even bother reading. I think there is a fair amount of intelligence and knowledge within these threads that affords some fairly basic conclusions, from what i have read.

Best discussion i have had for a short while though. Yes i should get out more but hey its lockdown.

Edit: Maybe i should spend some time on lockdown learning how to quote properly. Sorry for the eye burden.
 
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Slottery

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If a casino said we are lowering rtp on some providers due to this but aim to put it back up by 2022 i would stay loyal if i had been like VS for example and play what i could at max.

Have some work to do not to reply to everything, can we estimate if it was good or bad for VS in total overall in their operations to chose to reduce RTP instead of doing something else? I some thread here was accurate information provided without exact numbers that VS get huge amounts wagered through PnG compare to many other casinos.

We might sometimes forget that even whole CM community only would deposit to one single place, we couldn't make very big impact to any casinos deposits. After all, we are just one community and CM affiliate partner, affiliate business has grown huge and ways casinos get traffic and depositors are various these days to compare even 10 years ago. At the moment trend have been that is relatively easy to get FTD:s more and more, in that we probably most have seen that loyalty programs are not great as they used to be as no few loyal players have same value for casinos as they used to, now you can relatively easy get new depositors, these trends keep changing but at the moment don't know many places who loyalty programs would have been improved (you just would need enough these loyal players and them to deposit big enough).

One business model we all "love", Aspire, don't give a shite about their players or making any player friendly terms but everything else, they just keep getting FTD:s to their B2B customers much faster than casinos realize to be sad for being not great at retention. They do basically everything opposite way what we would advise them here to do to be nice casino to get our loyalty but they still survive somehow (quite ok even, bought they shares from dip half of March with 12 SEK and sold last week with 22 SEK where around they seem to be now).
 

bamberfishcake

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Have some work to do not to reply to everything, can we estimate if it was good or bad for VS in total overall in their operations to chose to reduce RTP instead of doing something else? I some thread here was accurate information provided without exact numbers that VS get huge amounts wagered through PnG compare to many other casinos.

We might sometimes forget that even whole CM community only would deposit to one single place, we couldn't make very big impact to any casinos deposits. After all, we are just one community and CM affiliate partner, affiliate business has grown huge and ways casinos get traffic and depositors are various these days to compare even 10 years ago. At the moment trend have been that is relatively easy to get FTD:s more and more, in that we probably most have seen that loyalty programs are not great as they used to be as no few loyal players have same value for casinos as they used to, now you can relatively easy get new depositors, these trends keep changing but at the moment don't know many places who loyalty programs would have been improved (you just would need enough these loyal players and them to deposit big enough).

One business model we all "love", Aspire, don't give a shite about their players or making any player friendly terms but everything else, they just keep getting FTD:s to their B2B customers much faster than casinos realize to be sad for being not great at retention. They do basically everything opposite way what we would advise them here to do to be nice casino to get our loyalty but they still survive somehow (quite ok even, bought they shares from dip half of March with 12 SEK and sold last week with 22 SEK where around they seem to be now).

Too early to say what effect it will have to VS in the long run but financially its a no brainer for the short sited business. I think it depends a lot on what the industry and competitors do. VS clearly care about perception on here though.

We may see everyone lower, almost like a Monopoly on the market, in which case nobody will worry as the choice wont be there. Players will choose to carry on or give up and that will be based on what returns they get not how much fun they have.

Somebody with a more long term steady growth plan, keeping max rtp and delivering the quality, will slowly take the business away. Even quicker the more chats we have like this and the more awareness that is built.

Imagine if the CM community DID deposit as one?! Now there's a thought :)
 

Slottery

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Too early to say what effect it will have to VS in the long run but financially its a no brainer for the short sited business. I think it depends a lot on what the industry and competitors do. VS clearly care about perception on here though.

We may see everyone lower, almost like a Monopoly on the market, in which case nobody will worry as the choice wont be there. Players will choose to carry on or give up and that will be based on what returns they get not how much fun they have.

Somebody with a more long term steady growth plan, keeping max rtp and delivering the quality, will slowly take the business away. Even quicker the more chats we have like this and the more awareness that is built.

Imagine if the CM community DID deposit as one?! Now there's a thought
:)

Regardless their lower RTP, they are in very top of operators fro PnG for volumes, of course if you can keep your volumes same you make more profit, just spoke about volumes which haven't decreased even they have decreased their RTP:s but opposite.

Hard to know about VS plans, maybe one reason to decrease RTP:s is to get funds to invest in future as well, something they still seem doing right as they get so much depositors compare to many others, RTP really after all is just one part of whole picture.

What could be estimated day value for that? :) I doupt that amount of active CM members (active in forum, might be thousands active players who just reading) could make big difference to any casinos operational decisions with deposits steadily coming in daily (would really need to be quite remarkable amount of dosh, not 5 or 10 thousand a day which one highroller alone deposit in a day), we have exclusive competitions from some groups time to time to thank the community and of course get deposits but there's still long way to get some casino to be 100% like we would like it to be even all would start to only deposit there :)
 

bamberfishcake

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Regardless their lower RTP, they are in very top of operators fro PnG for volumes, of course if you can keep your volumes same you make more profit, just spoke about volumes which haven't decreased even they have decreased their RTP:s but opposite.

Hard to know about VS plans, maybe one reason to decrease RTP:s is to get funds to invest in future as well, something they still seem doing right as they get so much depositors compare to many others, RTP really after all is just one part of whole picture.

What could be estimated day value for that? :) I doupt that amount of active CM members (active in forum, might be thousands active players who just reading) could make big difference to any casinos operational decisions with deposits steadily coming in daily (would really need to be quite remarkable amount of dosh, not 5 or 10 thousand a day which one highroller alone deposit in a day), we have exclusive competitions from some groups time to time to thank the community and of course get deposits but there's still long way to get some casino to be 100% like we would like it to be even all would start to only deposit there :)

The full impact of what VS has done is yet to be seen. I would not have expected to see a significant drop just yet anyway. Initially nobody knew. Then came a second lowering if i recall? which was fairly recently in the grand scheme of things if im right.

Their position as a top operator for PnG has not been cemented because they offered lower RTP games. It was achieved through being the best at what they did and offering more than everyone else.The jury is still out on the impact in my opinion as they no longer offer the best, though still great at what they do.

In any case, awareness of RTP is something that is on the increase and i doubt any high roller will knowingly choose to play lower paying versions. People also dont like change so any impact may not be immediate if the wins are still coming. Only when the budget dwindles do we question what were doing,

Be it now or tomorrow any punter when they become aware will choose to play the higher paying version.

Compared to two years ago more and more are aware so i would say this year or maybe next will be telling for VS and only they will know the truth damn it lol :)
 

Slottery

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In any case, awareness of RTP is something that is on the increase and i doubt any high roller will knowingly choose to play lower paying versions. People also dont like change so any impact may not be immediate if the wins are still coming. Only when the budget dwindles do we question what were doing,

I can give my word that for many people who gamble over £10k/month, are knowingly playing in places with lower RTP. For many that 2% is not that important factor like consensus here seem to be. Many people who play with huge amounts, play in places they like, things work, no hassle anywhere etc... when you find that kind of place, you usually stay there. It's irrelevant if your RTP is 2% lower if you overall keep loosing anyway like in slots most of people do, you just wanna get your adrenaline kicks with some high stakes and possibly high wins.

These same people don't also always do their shopping in the cheapest places or chase sales and offers, that's more what not that wealth people do more (money makes lazy, yes, i guess we all who can afford internet make choices every day which are not economically smart or pay more about something to get it next door instead of walking mile and get it cheaper). If you can afford to play very high level and don't end up to broken gambling addict but can afford that over £10k/month an average to your hobby, you don't really look price tags if it's 96% or 94% (especially when in blind test it's shown almost impossible to experience slot players to name which slot from few is 94% when rest are 96%, same game).

Believe or not, even Aspire at least used to have some very high depositing loyal players, not sure if they still exist but they for some reason were happy there. Highrollers usually are some rich people who can afford that losing, you can't be one with some average wage (or yes you can one day in month) but rich and stupid.

Like old saying says, rich people don't make lottery or play any other lucky games with negative RTP, some highrollers are exception to that rule (maybe some start to when they are rich enough but if willing to come rich, better not to spend penny to these games :D)
 

bamberfishcake

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I can give my word that for many people who gamble over £10k/month, are knowingly playing in places with lower RTP. For many that 2% is not that important factor like consensus here seem to be.

That surprised me at first but thinking about the mentality, I guess if your happy, in profit and being looked after then you wont change.

2% is a bit of a spin though isnt it? Do you work for a casino by chance :p

Most people are creatures of habit and scared of change. Totally agree about convenience, we love it.

I dont know much about the VIP side of things at casinos which is an element of consideration for sure when considering if high rollers are concerned.

Regarding the rich our life experiences must differ greatly. My experience is they are the tightest and shrewdest but i agree one mans £10 bet is anothers £100 or £1000 when considering budget.
 

Slottery

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That surprised me at first but thinking about the mentality, I guess if your happy, in profit and being looked after then you wont change.

2% is a bit of a spin though isnt it? Do you work for a casino by chance :p

Most people are creatures of habit and scared of change. Totally agree about convenience, we love it.

I dont know much about the VIP side of things at casinos which is an element of consideration for sure when considering if high rollers are concerned.

Regarding the rich our life experiences must differ greatly. My experience is they are the tightest and shrewdest but i agree one mans £10 bet is anothers £100 or £1000 when considering budget.

I guess there are not that many active slot players who are happy with their lifetime profit :) We have some great casinos here which are most respected ones within this forum because you can be sure that you get treated fairly and have really helpful rep who is ready to go so many extra miles with weird times of the day/week that can only admire passion to do everything possible. I'm not rich but i have no problem to play in such a place even my theoretical RTP would be 94 instead of 96.

2% difference in theoretical RTP is found to be really hard to recognize, it's been much tested and different concepts tried out how and where to take these little deductions without player having much different experience. When you cut 2% from total RTP, it can be quite invisible and almost impossible to recognize if you for example play 5 sessions of same game and one of them have that 2% difference, of course it's long term should make more money for casino but if comparing theoretical and real RTP:s (like many casinos showing them at least for some periods which games are hot etc... or your personal RTP:s), 2% is still kind of within "mistake marginal" where game easily can run for longer period, one player personal RTP can be over theoretical very long time after hitting one insane win. But of course what higher RTP you have in same game, better value you have in it, volatility and other ingredients in it don't make it that easy to count that you get XX% spins less like some countings have been made without game have any variance but as we know they do but higher is always higher.

Not directly working in any casino, been living in Malta quite many years and getting my food and drinks from igaming industry like i guess majority of foreigners here.

VIP players are something you love but are also bit complex for long term, as even quite wealthy person can spend everything they have on gambling. Some get so excited when they have their personal VIP manager who can be connected via Whatsupp or what so ever and who for sure contact you like friend if your deposits seem to be dropping. These days like mentioned in some posts earlier, the amount of online casino players has increased significantly if you compare even what ever, 7 years ago. Now playing online is more normal and everyday thing, you have a much bigger number of players and you are not that badly dependent about your few VIP:s (of course you don't wanna lose them at any costs, if they are players who don't end up to be problem gamblers like unfortunately some amount of them do, gambling is not easiest to control and VIP status for some is something you want to keep, even you couldn't afford it and then we see these UKGC fines where somebody been stealing £200k from work to play...) when you have good number of players who keep depositing and you get your deposits every day without all your registered players having to spend fortunes. VIP/Loyalty programs are mainly not that generous what they used to be (or at least not for that big group of people but more exclusive), also regulators like UKGC have VIP programs as one of their concern that is it ok to so encourage players to spend a lot by giving them nice gifts and making such a personal relationship with them. From these past UKGC fine cases it can be clearly seen how important they were for casinos, these amounts what people deposited in some cases were so huge that every human should have give a thought that am i really dealing with person who can lose hundreds of thousands in two years etc.. but no questions asked, that happily have changed quite a lot.

About rich people, that's very true what you said and like i said earlier (rich people don't make lotteries or play slots), rich people i know even somehow are usually like you said, really tight and they don't waste penny to any "investment" where you have negative ROI exceptions, that's probably one reason they are rich. If you are used to manage your big funds, invest and just take care of them wise way, you probably don't play these games as you don't like to lose the funds you have made with your smart investments etc... Then other style of people who just like to splash cash, maybe they got rich fast and "easy" and just have more spending lifestyle. I think it's quite much researched that rich people are not gambling much, in Finland there been quite a lot of conversations previous years about land based FOBT:s (which you have in every bar, shop, petrol station, everywhere, over 18 000 machines in total) and how they are placed to areas which have lowest income and education level, areas with highest income and education levels, they are almost nonexistent. Maybe if you have millions, you don't get same excitment and entertainment from these games than we "normal" people do, can't say for sure, haven't have pleasure to be rich yet :)

Seems we start to get "bit" offtopic but it's easy to get back to pure RTP discussions, guess my original point was that argument that if casino X can do something, there's no reason why not all the others could is not great argument without more information about casinos situation. There can be so many reasons why casino X can provide something casino Z can't at the moment, was it operation costs, how they are doing overall with their numbers, do they need to invest to some improvements, are some temporarily offering more than they can in long term (like typically all new casinos when they launch have much higher bonus costs than it's possible to have long term) etc... We here have good information available to base or decision where to deposit our money and i probably have more understanding for not offering highest possible RTP available than majority have which is perfectly ok and i haven't try to say that there is no difference, i just keep it quite small difference (which don't mean i recommend everybody do same, we all play our own money) and understand how some reps have stated their reasonings in chosing their RTP:s.
 

bamberfishcake

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I'm not rich but i have no problem to play in such a place even my theoretical RTP would be 94 instead of 96.

Unless you are getting something extra i think that is foolish choice.

I really cant understand why anyone, given a straight choice between a higher or lower paying slot that is exactly the same in every way except payout, would ever choose the lower paying version given no additional benefits.

2% difference in theoretical RTP is found to be really hard to recognize, it's been much tested and different concepts tried out how and where to take these little deductions without player having much different experience. When you cut 2% from total RTP, it can be quite invisible and almost impossible to recognize if you for example play 5 sessions of same game and one of them have that 2% difference, of course it's long term should make more money for casino but if comparing theoretical and real RTP:s (like many casinos showing them at least for some periods which games are hot etc... or your personal RTP:s), 2% is still kind of within "mistake marginal" where game easily can run for longer period, one player personal RTP can be over theoretical very long time after hitting one insane win. But of course what higher RTP you have in same game, better value you have in it, volatility and other ingredients in it don't make it that easy to count that you get XX% spins less like some countings have been made without game have any variance but as we know they do but higher is always higher.

Yes I would have thought it is hard to recognise and almost impossible to spot.

Exactly the reason why you should check before you play so you know you have the best chance.

2% margin for error is interesting. I wonder about the recordings of rtp and how they are monitored.

2% margin for error could mean the 94% version compared to the 96% could be running the same OR they could be running at 92% and 98% - a difference of 6% compared to an advertised 2% - Ill take my chances on the max RTP every time. - Just my own bit of spin :)

When considering games like Red Tigers Mystery Reels or Megaways (cant remember which) where some casinos offer around 98% and others 91%. I guess including the margin of error we could be playing a difference of 9% instead of the advertised 7%!

Think we will have to agree to differ on this one mate as we are on very different pages. Its evolved to us talking about a noticeable difference in lower RTP and if it matters.

Less % payout = less paid out.

Agree with your closing statement that 'higher is always higher'.

Have a good day. Stay safe :)
 

pinnit2014

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Unless you are getting something extra i think that is foolish choice.

I really cant understand why anyone, given a straight choice between a higher or lower paying slot that is exactly the same in every way except payout, would ever choose the lower paying version given no additional benefits.



Yes I would have thought it is hard to recognise and almost impossible to spot.

Exactly the reason why you should check before you play so you know you have the best chance.

2% margin for error is interesting. I wonder about the recordings of rtp and how they are monitored.

2% margin for error could mean the 94% version compared to the 96% could be running the same OR they could be running at 92% and 98% - a difference of 6% compared to an advertised 2% - Ill take my chances on the max RTP every time. - Just my own bit of spin :)

When considering games like Red Tigers Mystery Reels or Megaways (cant remember which) where some casinos offer around 98% and others 91%. I guess including the margin of error we could be playing a difference of 9% instead of the advertised 7%!

Think we will have to agree to differ on this one mate as we are on very different pages. Its evolved to us talking about a noticeable difference in lower RTP and if it matters.

Less % payout = less paid out.

Agree with your closing statement that 'higher is always higher'.

Have a good day. Stay safe :)

Agree with what you're saying but i don't think, and many have said here, that the majority of players either know, nor as Slottery has said, care about RTP. If you take the angry beloved Mrs P: she was playing Reactoonz the other day and i said why you playing it there, that's only 94%: the reaction was, more or less, meh....And that's from someone who, probably, sinks more money in a month than me (cos her salary is x2.5 more than mine :p)
 
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yyuu

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Team Videoslots
Been using you a quiet a bit over the years and recently reached Level 300

Wanted to use this thread to say I will be moving on to other providers, specifically due to greedy RTPs.
 

Slottery

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Article with some RTP education included in article (not really high level educational but it's not gaming specific paper either, at least advised for all to check RTP:s before playing):

Whether on the hunt for a huge payday or merely seeking a more casual gaming experience, online casinos in the modern age cater to a broad spectrum of players. Before wagering any money, it’s advisable to research each game’s respective RTP to decide which games best meet the individual goals and gambling approach of the player

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If people have time and interest, write some short simple articles and keep posting them to internet, that can make more "normal" leisure "gamblers" to be aware what is RTP and more importantly, some providers use different versions. In this forum we are quite well covered but probably many have some places where could post about topic.
 

bamberfishcake

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Knew I had seen Casinoland mentioned somewhere and thought i would check out their RTP.

Not played there in a long while and although a cm search brought me sadly to this thread, realising they are not max, I am impressed with their verification promise:

10 minutes or £10 cash......counting down as we speak.......

Screenshot 2020-06-30 at 14.16.56.png

This is exemplary for the industry in my experience but should be a KPI for all casinos.
 

colinsunderland

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Knew I had seen Casinoland mentioned somewhere and thought i would check out their RTP.

Not played there in a long while and although a cm search brought me sadly to this thread, realising they are not max, I am impressed with their verification promise:

10 minutes or £10 cash......counting down as we speak.......

View attachment 135675

This is exemplary for the industry in my experience but should be a KPI for all casinos.

Absolute shite company, closed my account 5 minutes after opening, well trying to



2020-06-30 (1).png

2020-06-30 (2).png
 

bamberfishcake

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Also lying about the RTP on their games
Don't know about the others but Book of Dead is set at 94%, yet their list states 96%
A group for the avoid list

View attachment 135685

And thats enough for me to not send any more docs in.

They failed the first two proof of addy but both utility and within 3 months.

Was going to do the 3rd attempt but no way Jose.

Thanks for the heads up.
 

Slottery

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And thats enough for me to not send any more docs in.

They failed the first two proof of addy but both utility and within 3 months.

Was going to do the 3rd attempt but no way Jose.

Thanks for the heads up.

One minus side of making promises of 10 min handling time can be that people there really don't spend that much attention to one document but it's approved or declined in few secs which can make it more frustrating than waiting what ever hours and get all approved at once.
 

slot_zombie

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One Click had all the makings of a great new casino group.. the sites are very well done.

Then they stopped communicating with players, reduced RTP and increased payout processing times....
 

pinnit2014

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I don't even know how they're still going - they literally never bother contacting you/promo's/hello's.

Odd group to say the least - only good point is that the sites one of the slickest

The rest is shite.
 

bamberfishcake

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thank god

Funny how different casinos get a mixed bag of opinions.

Not many where the general consensus is 'yes, their great!'.

888 basically stole money from me when i first ventured into slotting.

No other way to describe it but theft - deposited for bonus then got excluded and blocked for no apparent reason and no explanation significant enough for me to remember the details, no money back, just a lingering thought of 'theft'.
 
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