Announcement from the GRA concerning Hilo and ReelDeal games

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We have yet to see how effectively the UK Gambling Commission deals with illegal online gambling operators once the p.o.c. taxation and licensing regime is implemented, and that is definitely going to be watched with great interest.

First off, I suspect that the Commission will be quite demanding in requiring the applicants to provide full details so they can be tracked down in the event of any incidents of non-compliance, but that's perhaps the easier part of the problem - how to keep unlicensed operators out will be more difficult (they have lots of experience at ducking and diving from other jurisdictions!)

Looking at examples in other 'proper' countries that have embraced regulated internet gambling may give us an idea of how effective weapons like financial transaction and ISP blocking can be, or how active and heavily punitive police activity influences events...that's a little harder to assess, but it looks as if Denmark and Belgium are having some success in keeping outsiders out and making sure licensees behave themselves.

I think that much will depend on how effectively enforcement is applied - good industry intelligence, the collaboration of UK licensees and a very high profile, energetic enforcement strategy consistently applied could work IMO.

I hope that player expectations of the Gambling Commission are realised in terms of consumer protection, which as Richas says above should be at the heart of regulation (although I fear that in most cases the real reason for governments to get involved is money, money, money!)

One thing I really do hope is that the UK authorities show more professional knowledge and consumer sensitivity than the head of the GRA!
 
We have yet to see how effectively the UK Gambling Commission deals with illegal online gambling operators once the p.o.c. taxation and licensing regime is implemented, and that is definitely going to be watched with great interest.

First off, I suspect that the Commission will be quite demanding in requiring the applicants to provide full details so they can be tracked down in the event of any incidents of non-compliance, but that's perhaps the easier part of the problem - how to keep unlicensed operators out will be more difficult (they have lots of experience at ducking and diving from other jurisdictions!)

Looking at examples in other 'proper' countries that have embraced regulated internet gambling may give us an idea of how effective weapons like financial transaction and ISP blocking can be, or how active and heavily punitive police activity influences events...that's a little harder to assess, but it looks as if Denmark and Belgium are having some success in keeping outsiders out and making sure licensees behave themselves.

I think that much will depend on how effectively enforcement is applied - good industry intelligence, the collaboration of UK licensees and a very high profile, energetic enforcement strategy consistently applied could work IMO.

I hope that player expectations of the Gambling Commission are realised in terms of consumer protection, which as Richas says above should be at the heart of regulation (although I fear that in most cases the real reason for governments to get involved is money, money, money!)

One thing I really do hope is that the UK authorities show more professional knowledge and consumer sensitivity than the head of the GRA!


So will these new UK laws actually make it illegal for UK residents to play at foreign and/or unlicensed casinos?

I'm interested in how they can prosecute these illegal casinos out of the UK also if they have no business interests or banking facilities there.

I'm totally in favour of government regulation.....I wish we would do it here....but, like you, I suspect an underground operator might find ways and means to reach UK players, and without the 15% turnover (or profits?) tax being able to offer much sweeter deals.
 
So will these new UK laws actually make it illegal for UK residents to play at foreign and/or unlicensed casinos?

Not heard that this is the case. But if our government tried to force something like this through, I would like to see them try. The UK is not the US and we would not stand for this, as this would be akin to limiting our freedom of choice. Plus you have the small issue of the animal that is the 'EU'.
 
Not heard that this is the case. But if our government tried to force something like this through, I would like to see them try. The UK is not the US and we would not stand for this, as this would be akin to limiting our freedom of choice. Plus you have the small issue of the animal that is the 'EU'.

No they will not be criminalising the UK punter foolish enough to go to a non UK site. Even in the US it is only Washington State that made online gambling a felony and they have never charged anyone. it is not illegal for a US player to wager - hence why the DOJ is organising a refund for Full Tilt players not prosecuting them.

The first big power for the UKGC is that offering such a game to a UK punter will become a criminal offence, punishable by up to 51 weeks in gaol and a fine.

The second is that advertising such a site, even online to UK customers will be an offence. The grey market will have a huge disadvantage to the legit sites with their licence, shirt sponsorships, tv adverts etc. No magazine, tv company, radio station or even online ad space seller will put out an illegal advert to Uk customers for an unlicenced site. They may still try but I can't see many UK punters going into the grey market which will be harder to find and clearly non legitimate/dodgy.
 
Does anyone know when Bryans back?

Cant wait for his reply on this one.
 
Does anyone know when Bryans back?

Cant wait for his reply on this one.

I got back in last night and am extremely busy - but saying that...

...when I posted the GRA's first comment, I was literally going out the door catching a flight to the UK. I hadn't read it fully - but I knew that a lot of people were waiting for this so up it went. During the week (last week), I had on and off Internet access and was able to upload Mr. Brear's follow up statement - again with just a glance over.

Now I'm back and am digesting the statements being made, and like many of you, I am not satisfied with this at all. I will be downgrading the GRA's ratings at CM shortly here: https://www.casinomeister.com/rating-system-explanation/ and making a statement later.
 
I, like most of you, was expecting an objective report on the whole Finsoft/Spielo game fiasco. I anticipated a brief synopsis of what happened, why it happened, how it happened, what has been done to prevent this from happening again, and what compensations were planned or had been made.

I did not expect the commissioner to address this forum - or anything about the red herring of a fraudulent player - or someone using their mother's ID to open accounts (shame on you if you are), I expected the commissioner to provide a public report that would reinforce our confidence in a solid and effective licensing jurisdiction. I also believed strongly that compensation for all affected players was in the works. I am very unsatisfied with this.

And when I say "our confidence" I mean the entire industry as a whole - not just those happy few who visit these pages.

The GRA has been demoted on our ratings which has negatively affected the ratings of GRA licensed casinos listed here.

32Red
Bet365
Betfred
Coral Casino
Dash Casino
Gala Casino
Golden Lounge
Nedplay

I also don't understand why more members have not signed ThePogg's petition. There are many people here who are known publicly and should not fear putting their name down for something for which they feel is right. I've signed it, the moderators have signed it, if you feel that the GRA should do more, please go here:
You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.
 
I, like most of you, was expecting an objective report on the whole Finsoft/Spielo game fiasco. I anticipated a brief synopsis of what happened, why it happened, how it happened, what has been done to prevent this from happening again, and what compensations were planned or had been made.

I did not expect the commissioner to address this forum - or anything about the red herring of a fraudulent player - or someone using their mother's ID to open accounts (shame on you if you are), I expected the commissioner to provide a public report that would reinforce our confidence in a solid and effective licensing jurisdiction. I also believed strongly that compensation for all affected players was in the works. I am very unsatisfied with this.

And when I say "our confidence" I mean the entire industry as a whole - not just those happy few who visit these pages.

The GRA has been demoted on our ratings which has negatively affected the ratings of GRA licensed casinos listed here.

32Red

Bet365
Betfred
Coral Casino
Dash Casino
Gala Casino
Golden Lounge
Nedplay

I also don't understand why more members have not signed ThePogg's petition. There are many people here who are known publicly and should not fear putting their name down for something for which they feel is right. I've signed it, the moderators have signed it, if you feel that the GRA should do more, please go here:
You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

Just being Devil's Advocate, but SHOULD the GRA's report and downgrade impact the rating of solid casinos? I mean, the GRA is not doing its job, but 32Red is 100% solid; isn't that rather like saying a land based casino's less 'good' because the city's mayor's a dick?
 
Just being Devil's Advocate, but SHOULD the GRA's report and downgrade impact the rating of solid casinos? I mean, the GRA is not doing its job, but 32Red is 100% solid; isn't that rather like saying a land based casino's less 'good' because the city's mayor's a dick?

It's a rating for the jurisdiction regardless of casino property. It's like saying a landbased casino loses points because their licensing jurisdiction could be doing a better job. It has nothing to do with a mayor, so your analogy is invalid :D
 
I, like most of you, was expecting an objective report on the whole Finsoft/Spielo game fiasco. I anticipated a brief synopsis of what happened, why it happened, how it happened, what has been done to prevent this from happening again, and what compensations were planned or had been made.

I did not expect the commissioner to address this forum - or anything about the red herring of a fraudulent player - or someone using their mother's ID to open accounts (shame on you if you are), I expected the commissioner to provide a public report that would reinforce our confidence in a solid and effective licensing jurisdiction. I also believed strongly that compensation for all affected players was in the works. I am very unsatisfied with this.
Thank you.

Bryan, do what you can, please, to send the strongest possible message that this type of unprofessional, incoherent and incompetent conduct is simply not acceptable.
 
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Just being Devil's Advocate, but SHOULD the GRA's report and downgrade impact the rating of solid casinos? I mean, the GRA is not doing its job, but 32Red is 100% solid; isn't that rather like saying a land based casino's less 'good' because the city's mayor's a dick?

A fall from grace for an establishment like 32Red may seem like a distant possibility but possible none the less. If it ever did happen, without a solid, responsive regulating body just think how many players could be left without answers or hope of a resolution.
 
A fall from grace for an establishment like 32Red may seem like a distant possibility but possible none the less. If it ever did happen, without a solid, responsive regulating body just think how many players could be left without answers or hope of a resolution.

Scary thought.
 
I, like most of you, was expecting an objective report on the whole Finsoft/Spielo game fiasco. I anticipated a brief synopsis of what happened, why it happened, how it happened, what has been done to prevent this from happening again, and what compensations were planned or had been made.

I did not expect the commissioner to address this forum - or anything about the red herring of a fraudulent player - or someone using their mother's ID to open accounts (shame on you if you are), I expected the commissioner to provide a public report that would reinforce our confidence in a solid and effective licensing jurisdiction. I also believed strongly that compensation for all affected players was in the works. I am very unsatisfied with this.

And when I say "our confidence" I mean the entire industry as a whole - not just those happy few who visit these pages.

The GRA has been demoted on our ratings which has negatively affected the ratings of GRA licensed casinos listed here.

32Red
Bet365
Betfred
Coral Casino
Dash Casino
Gala Casino
Golden Lounge
Nedplay

I also don't understand why more members have not signed ThePogg's petition. There are many people here who are known publicly and should not fear putting their name down for something for which they feel is right. I've signed it, the moderators have signed it, if you feel that the GRA should do more, please go here:
You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

I have signed the petition, I think some people maybe a bit hesitant because of Mr Brear threats, his threats in this thread are not the first. He has threatened to go to the police and all sorts of rubbish before because of things said about him and the GRA. The whole thing has been rather disappointing really.
 
It is frustrating to see this so-called regulator ignoring the central issues in this case and apparently letting the perpetrators get away with it, setting a dangerous industry precedent.

That being the case I believe a downgrading of the GRA's rating here is appropriate and should remain until someone sensible and knowledgable at that body reopens the case and assesses it more impartially and professionally.
 
No they will not be criminalising the UK punter foolish enough to go to a non UK site. Even in the US it is only Washington State that made online gambling a felony and they have never charged anyone. it is not illegal for a US player to wager - hence why the DOJ is organising a refund for Full Tilt players not prosecuting them.

The first big power for the UKGC is that offering such a game to a UK punter will become a criminal offence, punishable by up to 51 weeks in gaol and a fine.

The second is that advertising such a site, even online to UK customers will be an offence. The grey market will have a huge disadvantage to the legit sites with their licence, shirt sponsorships, tv adverts etc. No magazine, tv company, radio station or even online ad space seller will put out an illegal advert to Uk customers for an unlicenced site. They may still try but I can't see many UK punters going into the grey market which will be harder to find and clearly non legitimate/dodgy.

Good points with which I agree; allied to effective enforcement this could provide a major disadvantage to illegal operators. And there are precedents among EU governments.
 
The second is that advertising such a site, even online to UK customers will be an offence.

This is worrying to me, as a webmaster with a company incorporated in the UK ( England and Wales ) which runs several gambling portals. Does this mean I will not be able to advertise casinos which do not come under the UKGC's umbrella? :eek:

Or by continuing to do so, my company and myself in turn will be committing an offence?

Another question, in that what about sites which are owned by non UK residents but are hosted in the UK?

Also as a footnote, currently most of the programs we work with are outside the EU with regards to VAT. Hence if operators had to move to the UK, payments for affiliates would be then made within the EU, thus making many affiliates who reside in Europe having to become registered for VAT or the sales tax equivalent, who currently do not have to ( as payments made within the EU currently do not push their earnings over the VAT/Sales Tax threshold over a rolling 12 monthly period ).
 
K, analogy sucks, lol, fair enough. So any casino licensed in the area should pull out then, and move shop?

They should be moaning like mad that their regulator has messed up, reducing their credibility.

A certain Mr Brears head on a platter may be what they need first. Then a proper report and action from the GRA.

These firms were about to sue the UK government for unnecessary regulation solely for tax purposes and then their regulator proves spectacularly that they are not up to the job leaving them with no chance in the courts. He has harmed the Gibraltan economy, the tax revenues and these firms as well as letting players down.

The UK system of having a third party arbitrator deal with individual player disputes/complaints is different to the way that the GRA deals with them directly. Unfortunately this experience seems to have left the GRA soured and cynical about all players and willing to ignore real failures by suppliers and licencees.
 
I wish 32Red would make a statement. They didn't react to all this mess.

That's probably because they never carried the suspect games. And even if they had, they would probably have done the right thing and spent the time necessary to look after any of their players that were affected without the 'regulator' ever having to be involved in the first place.
 
That's probably because they never carried the suspect games. And even if they had, they would probably have done the right thing and spent the time necessary to look after any of their players that were affected without the 'regulator' ever having to be involved in the first place.

but theyre still getting dinged in rating
 
Signed

I think ThePOGG' initiative is praiseworthy and deserves us to help him to give it wings. :notworthy

Since this is something that must be performed by an English native person/group, I expect those members in such "category" to produce that document and thence, to go ahead with this matter - a massive complaint.

I'm ready to sign that final document.

already signed the document however, there are just around 35 signatures on that petition so.... it is a long way ....
 
That's probably because they never carried the suspect games. And even if they had, they would probably have done the right thing and spent the time necessary to look after any of their players that were affected without the 'regulator' ever having to be involved in the first place.

Unlike Betfred.
 
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