Anna Representing betcart

[betcartannadell]

Hello,

I am Anna, the PR Manager for betcart, an online sportsbook and casino operator. Our affiliate program is currently being upgraded, and new registrations are suspended while we finish the integration. It should be up and ready by LAC, so let me know if you would like to arrange a meeting. If you want more information about the company I represent and what we offer please message me directly as I have no intention of spamming the forum.

Personally, I always preferred Texas Hold ‘em and other games of skill to games of pure chance. I have an uncanny knack for placing second so maybe someone has some advice on how to improve my end game?

I joined this forum because I am genuinely interested in learning more about the frustrations and preferences of players and affiliates. I want to know what innovations users are most excited about so we can stay ahead of the curve and constantly improve our product offerings and customer satisfaction to yield the most positive entertainment experience possible.

If I can assist you in any way please let me know. I look forward to hearing your feedback and opinions.

 

[KasinoKing]

Welcome to the forum Anna!

The main problem I see with sports-book related casinos, is they tend to not be too clever at understanding what casino players want & expect, and often don't have welcome bonuses which are competitive with casino-only operators.
They also tend to have "affiliate unfriendly" terms which can restrict how much exposure you can get with webmaster's help.
Your company may be different - only time will tell.
Quite happy to discuss these issues with you a LAC, or before.

KK

 

[betcartannadell]

Thanks Kasino King!

Thanks for giving me some insight about how we can distinguish our brand from our competitors. What would you say is the cut-off threshold for what makes an attractive welcome bonus?

Can you provide me some examples of what you mean by "affiliate unfriendly" terms?

I will private message you so we can arrange a meeting at LAC. betcart/betcartpartners will be exhibiting and will post our stand number once the event organisation has been finalised so anyone else interested in meeting up can stop by.

~Anna

 

[KasinoKing]

Thanks for giving me some insight about how we can distinguish our brand from our competitors. What would you say is the cut-off threshold for what makes an attractive welcome bonus?

Can you provide me some examples of what you mean by "affiliate unfriendly" terms?

100% bonuses should not have a WR of more than (D+B)x20 (or Bx40), preferably lower and be Cashable, not sticky.

Affiliate unfriendly = having Negative Carry Over (NCO), any kind of minimum quotas and/or low % rev share commission.
Most of the "big" UK sportsbooks have these bad terms: e.g. Ladbrokes, Market Ace, Victor Chandler, Will Hills, 888, etc...

KK

 

[betcartannadell]

100% bonuses should not have a WR of more than (D+B)x20 (or Bx40), preferably lower and be Cashable, not sticky.

Affiliate unfriendly = having Negative Carry Over (NCO), any kind of minimum quotas and/or low % rev share commission.
Most of the "big" UK sportsbooks have these bad terms: e.g. Ladbrokes, Market Ace, Victor Chandler, Will Hills, 888, etc...

KK

That's interesting. I think opinions will vary based on the purpose of the player when entering the casino: financial gain or entertainment. Correct me if I’m wrong, but it seems to me that you fall into a category of player that comes to the casino in a professional capacity, primarily to make money. Our site is first and foremost a sportsbook, and we include high-quality casino products (Microgaming, etc.) as well because we want our customers to have a wide array of entertainment options. If you are coming to our site with the sole goal of making a quick buck, surely there are other providers out there that might better suit your needs, but they may not offer the same quality or variety that we do. From an operator perspective breaking even in terms of deposits v. withdrawals isn't really breaking even because of the significant costs involved with hosting quality platforms and products and employing a strong team to make sure everything functions well and customer inquiries get answered within a reasonable timeframe. It is true that most people most days lose a little so a few people can occasionally win big, but that is the expectation. When I go to Vegas with my friends for New Year’s Eve we are competing more with each other than with the house and we leave happy win or lose because of the experience. Would you say most people on this forum expect to win a majority of the time or just want to have some fun?

In terms of the ideal Operator/Affiliate relationship, from my perspective it is all about striking a balance. It should be mutually beneficial. If an operator offers no “bad terms” I can’t imagine them staying in business very long because they would be taking on all of the risk in addition to all of the costs which is a very poor business model, and from my point of view not very fair. For example, we offer high revenue share percentages of up to over 50% so we have a negative carry over to lessen our risk. We also make few exceptions to our revenue share and CPA commission models because we don’t want affiliate partners who rely on spam or Trojans. If we did accept other commission models we risk paying for a service that in addition to maybe not bringing any new customers could annoy and drive away the users we already have. Having quality business relationships is more important than quantity for successful operators so that probably explains why the examples you provided have these terms. Those affiliates confident in their traffic and content are still able to turn a decent profit. Do you understand where I’m coming from with this? Has it altered your feelings about these issues at all?

~Anna

p.s. Anyone else feel free to jump in with their thoughts! I'd love to hear from you.

 

[Tirilej]

That's interesting. I think opinions will vary based on the purpose of the player when entering the casino: financial gain or entertainment. Correct me if I’m wrong, but it seems to me that you fall into a category of player that comes to the casino in a professional capacity, primarily to make money.

I feel in a way as if you're misunderstanding something here.

All players wants to win, constantly. We do however understand that we won't do that.
While trying we're having fun, are entertained, and accept the costs.

The welcome bonus KK talked about is only to get new customers. How you do to keep them is another business.
I guess you know though that a good experience, like winning, we're bragging about. It also makes us want to come back.

I can clearly hear from what you're saying that what you care about is your company and making good business.
I hope you care a little about your customers too. We are after all feeding you.

Sorry if I sound a little evil here, but I'm just a player who doesn't know so much about casinos or the affiliate side of the business

 

[paul7388]

Anna welcome to the forum.

As I stay in UK I cant use your casino anyway.

But I see your point about running a business to make a profit and I understand that fully.

But best way to make a profit is to get many happy customers that think great site, great bonuses lets play there.

But I just read some of the bonus terms and Tirilej you will love the wagering for Swedish players.

If this is indeed correct then the wagering on bonuses is as high as ive ever saw Anna and it wont get players flocking in that's for sure.

4. The standard bonus can be claimed only once per customer; the standard Rollover is 35x (deposit + bonus); the rollover for players from Argentina, Belarus, Czech Republic, Hungary, India, Japan, Lebanon, Lithuania, Moldova, Malaysia, Nepal, Peru, Poland, Paraguay, Sweden, Slovenia, Ukraine, Uruguay is 60x (deposit + bonus); the rollover for players from Canada, China, Finland, Latvia, Romania is 100x (deposit + bonus); players from South Korea, Macau or Brazil, Kazakhstan, Russia and Vietnam are not eligible to receive the bonus.

 

[Tirilej]

Anna welcome to the forum.

As I stay in UK I cant use your casino anyway.

But I see your point about running a business to make a profit and I understand that fully.

But best way to make a profit is to get many happy customers that think great site, great bonuses lets play there.

But I just read some of the bonus terms and Tirilej you will love the wagering for Swedish players.

If this is indeed correct then the wagering on bonuses is as high as ive ever saw Anna and it wont get players flocking in that's for sure.

4. The standard bonus can be claimed only once per customer; the standard Rollover is 35x (deposit + bonus); the rollover for players from Argentina, Belarus, Czech Republic, Hungary, India, Japan, Lebanon, Lithuania, Moldova, Malaysia, Nepal, Peru, Poland, Paraguay, Sweden, Slovenia, Ukraine, Uruguay is 60x (deposit + bonus); the rollover for players from Canada, China, Finland, Latvia, Romania is 100x (deposit + bonus); players from South Korea, Macau or Brazil, Kazakhstan, Russia and Vietnam are not eligible to receive the bonus.

It's first and foremost a Sportsbook anyway so I guess little me isn't interesting for them anyway.

I would never use a bonus that have a wagering of 35x d+b. It's too high.
Oh I forgot, I have 60x d+b

 

[paul7388]

It's first and foremost a Sportsbook anyway so I guess little me isn't interesting for them anyway.

I would never use a bonus that have a wagering of 35x d+b. It's too high.
Oh I forgot, I have 60x d+b

That's nice and low tho Tirilej lol. You could be Canadian and have 100x deposit and bonus.

Sportsbooks and casinos don't put me off. Guts 32RED and other places I use are all sportsbook and casinos like all UK bookies. But none of them needs wagering so high to survive lol.

 

[Jasminebed]

Microgaming only casinos usually offer 30x bonus only for slots, if the bonus is not cashable until completion. And these bonuses are -EV for the player most times.

Bonus x40 should make you even more money. Leaves me not just a little worse off than my own money, but a lot worse off.

Players that win and cashout are way more likely to return.

Sounds like you are coming here with a great attitude Anna, welcome to CM.

 

[hedgehok]

Hi Anna, welcome to the forum.

First of all thanks for some insight you gave us from your point of view. For me as a player and working in the finance industry myself I'm always eager to read about your operation and your opinions about bonus-structure or affiliate revenues.

Regarding the bonus and your question if members here want to play "professionally" or for entertainment. As far as I can take measure of the users of this forum 99% of the players play for entertainment . Some like to use bonuses, some like to use bonuses on occasion and some don't play with bonuses at all. There has been a poll about the SUB earlier this year and close to 80% of the forum members take bonuses at least sometimes (https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/threads/do-you-play-with-signup-bonuses-2015.67361/?t=67361).

The WR of your bonuses doesn't allow any kind of profitable play anyway so you won't be exposed to any financial risk by potential players of this forum. If you don't like to reduce the WR it might be worth considering to change the structure of the bonus so that players can withdraw before meeting wagering requirements. There are many ways to find a great middle-way so that you can gain profits and players appreciate your offers and see a realistic chance to win.

 

[betcartannadell]

All players wants to win, constantly. We do however understand that we won't do that.
While trying we're having fun, are entertained, and accept the costs.

This statement in particular really resonated with me in terms of understanding casino players motivations. I don't think you are evil and hope you don't think I am either. You are right I still have many things to learn. It is my understanding that even most credible casino games have a win percentage of less than 5% which already seems pretty slim to me, hence my statement that most people will lose most of the time. I thought what determined a good casino from a bad one is good ones have these credible games where it is possible for you to win and actually pay out when the winnings occur. I suppose I always attributed this more to the game design (set by the provider rather than the casino operator) and did not really consider the full impact of wagering requirements, which while decided internally were clearly not determined by me in PR. I appreciate and am reading all the replies to this thread and will report the consensus figure for an attractive WR to the appropriate department for their consideration. Thank you for assisting me with my market research.

p.s. I didn't mean to imply you or other casino players are not important to us, and I am sorry if I gave that impression. Rather I was just expressing that casino is not our main area of expertise so our business strategy in this demographic has even greater potential for improvement from your input.

 

[betcartannadell]

Hi Anna, welcome to the forum.
The WR of your bonuses doesn't allow any kind of profitable play anyway so you won't be exposed to any financial risk by potential players of this forum. If you don't like to reduce the WR it might be worth considering to change the structure of the bonus so that players can withdraw before meeting wagering requirements. There are many ways to find a great middle-way so that you can gain profits and players appreciate your offers and see a realistic chance to win.

Thanks for this advice. I will also pass this suggestion on to the relevant decision makers.

 

[KasinoKing]

That's interesting. I think opinions will vary based on the purpose of the player when entering the casino: financial gain or entertainment. Correct me if I’m wrong, but it seems to me that you fall into a category of player that comes to the casino in a professional capacity, primarily to make money.

Yes, you are wrong!
I did USED to fall into that category when welcome bonuses were more generous (Bonus x 30 max), but these days I play for entertainment with the hope, rather than expectation, of making a profit.
The point is, (D+B)x20 still favours the casino, but it's not so high that the player has no chance of even completing the WR, let alone with any money left.
IMHO, if the WR is so high as to make it virtually impossible to win, then it is wrong of the casino to call it a "Bonus".
How would you feel if your boss said that you would get a bonus at the end of the month, only to find out they meant they would take money off you?

In terms of the ideal Operator/Affiliate relationship, from my perspective it is all about striking a balance. It should be mutually beneficial. If an operator offers no “bad terms” I can’t imagine them staying in business very long because they would be taking on all of the risk in addition to all of the costs which is a very poor business model, and from my point of view not very fair. For example, we offer high revenue share percentages of up to over 50% so we have a negative carry over to lessen our risk.

Well I currently promote over 90 different operators, and only 4 have NCO: Bet365, iNetBet, Club World & Betway.
The first three I only list because I have been working with them a very long time, and Betway introduced it retroactively
All others who had NCO (not many) I have dumped. I will NEVER sign-up to an NCO program again - it's just a total killer for small-time affs like me.
Those 86+ who don't have NCO include ALL NetEnt based operators, like VideoSlots, Betat, GUTS, Redbet, Vera & John, etc... All MG casinos, like 32Red, Lucky 247, Go Wild, VPL, etc... And multiple other casinos using other softwares. Are all these casinos in financial trouble because of their poor business decision to not have NCO...? I don't think so!

You mention 50% - but that's only for affs making more than €20K per month! For the vast majority of us that is a totally unobtainable dream! Having NCO at those levels is not likely to effect affs much. But for a small aff who makes say €100 - 200 per month, one lucky winner can wipe out ALL their income for months, or even years!
For example, with Bet365 I was negative, earning nothing for over 2.5 YEARS! I have had several others in the same situation for up to a year or more. It is simply not worth promoting programs like this.

KK

 

[incrediblestuff]

Yes, you are wrong!

Well I currently promote over 90 different operators, and only 4 have NCO: Bet365, iNetBet, Club World & Betway.
The first three I only list because I have been working with them a very long time, and Betway introduced it retroactively
All others who had NCO (not many) I have dumped. I will NEVER sign-up to an NCO program again - it's just a total killer for small-time affs like me.
Those 86+ who don't have NCO include ALL NetEnt based operators, like VideoSlots, Betat, GUTS, Redbet, Vera & John, etc... All MG casinos, like 32Red, Lucky 247, Go Wild, VPL, etc... And multiple other casinos using other softwares. Are all these casinos in financial trouble because of their poor business decision to not have NCO...? I don't think so!

KK

Little off topic here: If you are a small time affiliate, then what the f does that make me ^.^
Somewhere between mini/micro and non-existent i suppose

On topic, hi Anna, welcome to the forum!
To add my 2 cents:

Welcome bonuses are the first thing the player usually sees, and it is unfortunately still a fact that the majority doesn't attentively read the terms and conditions.. So if they then find out the hard way, that they were under very harsh playthrough, it may be likely they feel screwed, and won't likely become a returning player.

Players that do read attentively, most likely won't even bother at all, or just play without bonus.
I would suggest you take the previously given advice to heart, and convince whoever is in charge of that department, to get some idea of what is acceptable: there are plenty of examples, especially these days, of what a player considers a good offer, and more important, a fair offer, here on the forum, and i think that reflects a large part of the player community.

Then on the aff-side of things, i would agree, to dump the NCO in any case, and don't impose retroactive changes, at least not without plenty of notice. For new Casino's it seems to be worthwhile to make special promo's that are specifically tailored for different affiliates. Granted, this may be more work, but also seems to have a positive impact. Of course, sites like my own don't really count there, it would be KK's or even bigger ones, that you would have to do such specials with, just to hitch a ride on some of their "active playerbase"

 

[betcartannadell]

Well I currently promote over 90 different operators, and only 4 have NCO...All others who had NCO (not many) I have dumped. I will NEVER sign-up to an NCO program again - it's just a total killer for small-time affs like me.

...for a small aff who makes say €100 - 200 per month, one lucky winner can wipe out ALL their income for months, or even years!
KK

Ok. I see your point about NCO, but if your earnings are small that also means the casino's earnings from the players you sent them are also small, no? Is the example earnings figure you gave closer to the small time affiliate average per operator or in total? Our 30% minimum revenue share deal is on par with industry averages. If there was no NCO do you think you would want to sign up at that threshold? What are your other deal breakers?

I'm also curious. Have you played at and do you continue to play at all the casinos you are promoting or just a select few?

If others could weigh in and let me know the key qualities they seek when looking to join a new casino or casino affiliate program that'd be great because I have a meeting scheduled next Wednesday to discuss my preliminary findings and offer your suggestions to the higher ups.

 

[betcartannadell]

Then on the aff-side of things, i would agree, to dump the NCO in any case, and don't impose retroactive changes, at least not without plenty of notice. For new Casino's it seems to be worthwhile to make special promo's that are specifically tailored for different affiliates. Granted, this may be more work, but also seems to have a positive impact. Of course, sites like my own don't really count there, it would be KK's or even bigger ones, that you would have to do such specials with, just to hitch a ride on some of their "active playerbase"

Thanks for the tips! I will be sure to pass your suggestions along.

 

[KasinoKing]

Ok. I see your point about NCO, but if your earnings are small that also means the casino's earnings from the players you sent them are also small, no? Is the example earnings figure you gave closer to the small time affiliate average per operator or in total? Our 30% minimum revenue share deal is on par with industry averages. If there was no NCO do you think you would want to sign up at that threshold? What are your other deal breakers?

I'm also curious. Have you played at and do you continue to play at all the casinos you are promoting or just a select few?

I am not going to discuss personal terms with you on a public forum - we can carry on that discussion in private.
I do have a list of minimum criteria - half of which relate to how you treat your players, and half concern affiliate terms.

I have played at a majority of the casinos I promote (or at least one from each group). I can't play them all regularly as there is not enough time in the day - I probably play at about 8 to 10 different ones each month.

KK

 

[PaaskeDenmark]

Ok. I see your point about NCO, but if your earnings are small that also means the casino's earnings from the players you sent them are also small, no? Is the example earnings figure you gave closer to the small time affiliate average per operator or in total? Our 30% minimum revenue share deal is on par with industry averages. If there was no NCO do you think you would want to sign up at that threshold? What are your other deal breakers?

I'm also curious. Have you played at and do you continue to play at all the casinos you are promoting or just a select few?

If others could weigh in and let me know the key qualities they seek when looking to join a new casino or casino affiliate program that'd be great because I have a meeting scheduled next Wednesday to discuss my preliminary findings and offer your suggestions to the higher ups.

Other important factor to mention is what your Admin costs are. Many have a around 30% fees or even higher which is a joke. Some have a lower fair one around 20%. This is a big deal breaker as well. As let us say you have earned £1000 in revenue then lose 30% takes down to £700 then only getting 30% of that. Then your actually only at a 15% and not a 30% revenue deal.

Also with NCO. I respect there are risks with this as you take the loss. BUT end of the day we are the hard working affiliates who help bring the players and when we make you money/revenue then we only actually get to keep around 20% in most cases of the profit you make. I think that is worth remembering as well.

 

[betcartannadell]

I am not going to discuss personal terms with you on a public forum - we can carry on that discussion in private.
I do have a list of minimum criteria - half of which relate to how you treat your players, and half concern affiliate terms.

I have played at a majority of the casinos I promote (or at least one from each group). I can't play them all regularly as there is not enough time in the day - I probably play at about 8 to 10 different ones each month.

KK

Thanks for the continued feedback! I look forward to meeting you in person to discuss further.

I am trying to get a feel for the level of overlap between affiliates and players and whether most affiliates prefer to promote many brands or focus on their few favorites. Thoughts?

 

[betcartannadell]

Other important factor to mention is what your Admin costs are. Many have a around 30% fees or even higher which is a joke. Some have a lower fair one around 20%. This is a big deal breaker as well. As let us say you have earned £1000 in revenue then lose 30% takes down to £700 then only getting 30% of that. Then your actually only at a 15% and not a 30% revenue deal.

Also with NCO. I respect there are risks with this as you take the loss. BUT end of the day we are the hard working affiliates who help bring the players and when we make you money/revenue then we only actually get to keep around 20% in most cases of the profit you make. I think that is worth remembering as well.

Ok great! I'll be sure to bring up these points as well.

 

[randomiam]

look over

when first beta changes are made ill have a look and rate with points of change from player and affiliate view when my site is up.
Make sure you promo material is available is many formats for different sites a common issue from my webby.