Bitch and Moan Amaya Group Ltd - Misleading and incorrect information

RichyJ75

Silly Member
PABnonaccred
Bit of a story of a comedy of errors, especially when considering the whole picture. Yes, I am at fault for not checking the overall Licencee from the outset, but what transpires has confused/irritated/angered me.

18th April 2016 - a day of frustration from start to finish!

1am - create account at Full Tilt to play at their casino. Played a bit, had balance up to $350 and wished to withdraw, unable to do so due to 48 hour pending period.
11am - log back in and peruse their site a bit more - find out they are linked to Pokerstars (with whom I have an active self exclusion - reason for such is irrelevant)
11.20am - e-mail them to ask if my account at Full Tilt is ok baring in mind SE at Pokerstars
11.46am - reply saying 'If you have requested a Self-Exclusion in PokerStars you will be permitted to play in Full Tilt.'
1.24pm - e-mail them to confirm their reply as it didn't sound correct to me.
2.16pm - reply saying 'As advised by my colleague, the self exclusion of your PokerStars account will not affect your Full Tilt account. Therefore, your future deposit and cash out will be honoured as normal'

Later that day/evening I carry on playing there and in the reassurance that all is ok, make further deposits.

9.52pm - during game play, account becomes locked and I receive an e-mail from them saying 'Please be aware that your account has been excluded; in-line with the United Kingdom Gaming regulations. Our records show that you have previously requested a ‘cross-site’ exclusion through the PokerStars software and confirmed this action.'
11.01pm - e-mail them pointing out their previous 'ok to play' e-mails and asking what the situation exactly is.
11.42pm - reply saying my e-mail was forwarded to team responsible for handling this matter.

21st April 2016

00.10am - e-mail them asking for an update

22nd April 2016

1.01am - e-mail them again as no reply, now raising it as a dispute/complaint

24th April 2016

3.42am - received reply saying they are reviewing the situation
6.50am - received reply saying it is forwarded to a supervisor
7.39am - received reply from their Responsible Gaming Specialist. Contents of which are puzzling to say the least! They state (extracts from their e-mail in italics):
- It seems that there has been a misunderstanding and you have been given two different versions of our policies.
- Cross site exclusion 'will happen is if you request a Self-Exclusion for 180 days'
- It seems that there was some confusion with your case because our Security Staff restricted your account based on a 120 days exclusion (obviously self excluding for 120 days is a lot less severe than excluding for 180 as that means you exclude from all their sites!!!)
- Please let us clarify that your Full Tilt account was restricted in error. The truth is that you should not have been restricted from playing due to the exclusion requested at PokerStars. This is based on the current requirements of the UK Gaming Regulation. (errrr, there is only one licence for Amaya Group which includes Pokerstars, Full Tilt and BetStars, so how can they follow different UKGC rules for SE?)
- Now, we were going to reopen your account but we are concerned
- Your accounts have been closed until this situation is clarified.


Naturally I am puzzled on a few aspects and e-mailed them back on the evening of 24th April (turn of midnight, so 25/04/16) and no reply yet. Brief extract of said e-mail is:

Given the current situation and erroneous statements made by staff at Full Tilt, I have investigated further and with regards to your remark of 'we would like to know if you still have doubts about our policies', please could you, in your capacity as an authorised representative of Full Tilt on behalf of Amaya Group Ltd (the licencee), clarify the following:
1. For ease of reference, there is only one UKGC licence issued to cover the various sites/brands (namely Pokerstars, Full Tilt and BetStars) under Amaya Group Ltd and that each entity must adhere to the Code of Conduct and the Licence Conditions for such licence.
2. With regards to your e-mail, you state that if I had requested a 180 day self exclusion then all accounts under Amaya Group Ltd would be blocked, but it is satisfactory to have open and operational accounts given that I had requested a 120 day self exclusion period. Please clarify what the difference is with each self exclusion, apart from duration.
3. As we can agree that there is a self exclusion in place with the licencee, Amaya Group Ltd with licence number 39108, you have said ‘The truth is that you should not have been restricted from playing due to the exclusion requested at PokerStars. This is based on the current requirements of the UK Gaming Regulation.’ I have read the licence conditions and under section 3.5.3 of the code of practice, I cannot find reference to allowing a self excluded player to carry on gaming activities with the licencee. Please advise of the exception to this rule based on the current requirements.
4. Throughout your e-mail you have insisted there is an error in my account being closed/blocked, but you will keep the account closed until clarified. Please state who you are awaiting clarification from?


Well, that's my little bitch and moan out the way! I think they are confused about licence conditions and are naive to their responsibilities.

Rest assured, I am not unhappy if I had lost, more so that they allowed the account to be operational despite my concerns, then close it after I made further deposits and regardless to what the balance was!

Make sense to anyone? if not, not to worry. No more bitch and moans from me as I will be playing at my select few favourites now without trying anyone else!
 

Harry_BKK

Meister Member
CAG
mm1
Bit of a story of a comedy of errors, especially when considering the whole picture. Yes, I am at fault for not checking the overall Licencee from the outset, but what transpires has confused/irritated/angered me.

18th April 2016 - a day of frustration from start to finish!

1am - create account at Full Tilt to play at their casino. Played a bit, had balance up to $350 and wished to withdraw, unable to do so due to 48 hour pending period.
11am - log back in and peruse their site a bit more - find out they are linked to Pokerstars (with whom I have an active self exclusion - reason for such is irrelevant)
11.20am - e-mail them to ask if my account at Full Tilt is ok baring in mind SE at Pokerstars
11.46am - reply saying 'If you have requested a Self-Exclusion in PokerStars you will be permitted to play in Full Tilt.'
1.24pm - e-mail them to confirm their reply as it didn't sound correct to me.
2.16pm - reply saying 'As advised by my colleague, the self exclusion of your PokerStars account will not affect your Full Tilt account. Therefore, your future deposit and cash out will be honoured as normal'

Later that day/evening I carry on playing there and in the reassurance that all is ok, make further deposits.

9.52pm - during game play, account becomes locked and I receive an e-mail from them saying 'Please be aware that your account has been excluded; in-line with the United Kingdom Gaming regulations. Our records show that you have previously requested a ‘cross-site’ exclusion through the PokerStars software and confirmed this action.'
11.01pm - e-mail them pointing out their previous 'ok to play' e-mails and asking what the situation exactly is.
11.42pm - reply saying my e-mail was forwarded to team responsible for handling this matter.

21st April 2016

00.10am - e-mail them asking for an update

22nd April 2016

1.01am - e-mail them again as no reply, now raising it as a dispute/complaint

24th April 2016

3.42am - received reply saying they are reviewing the situation
6.50am - received reply saying it is forwarded to a supervisor
7.39am - received reply from their Responsible Gaming Specialist. Contents of which are puzzling to say the least! They state (extracts from their e-mail in italics):
- It seems that there has been a misunderstanding and you have been given two different versions of our policies.
- Cross site exclusion 'will happen is if you request a Self-Exclusion for 180 days'
- It seems that there was some confusion with your case because our Security Staff restricted your account based on a 120 days exclusion (obviously self excluding for 120 days is a lot less severe than excluding for 180 as that means you exclude from all their sites!!!)
- Please let us clarify that your Full Tilt account was restricted in error. The truth is that you should not have been restricted from playing due to the exclusion requested at PokerStars. This is based on the current requirements of the UK Gaming Regulation. (errrr, there is only one licence for Amaya Group which includes Pokerstars, Full Tilt and BetStars, so how can they follow different UKGC rules for SE?)
- Now, we were going to reopen your account but we are concerned
- Your accounts have been closed until this situation is clarified.


Naturally I am puzzled on a few aspects and e-mailed them back on the evening of 24th April (turn of midnight, so 25/04/16) and no reply yet. Brief extract of said e-mail is:

Given the current situation and erroneous statements made by staff at Full Tilt, I have investigated further and with regards to your remark of 'we would like to know if you still have doubts about our policies', please could you, in your capacity as an authorised representative of Full Tilt on behalf of Amaya Group Ltd (the licencee), clarify the following:
1. For ease of reference, there is only one UKGC licence issued to cover the various sites/brands (namely Pokerstars, Full Tilt and BetStars) under Amaya Group Ltd and that each entity must adhere to the Code of Conduct and the Licence Conditions for such licence.
2. With regards to your e-mail, you state that if I had requested a 180 day self exclusion then all accounts under Amaya Group Ltd would be blocked, but it is satisfactory to have open and operational accounts given that I had requested a 120 day self exclusion period. Please clarify what the difference is with each self exclusion, apart from duration.
3. As we can agree that there is a self exclusion in place with the licencee, Amaya Group Ltd with licence number 39108, you have said ‘The truth is that you should not have been restricted from playing due to the exclusion requested at PokerStars. This is based on the current requirements of the UK Gaming Regulation.’ I have read the licence conditions and under section 3.5.3 of the code of practice, I cannot find reference to allowing a self excluded player to carry on gaming activities with the licencee. Please advise of the exception to this rule based on the current requirements.
4. Throughout your e-mail you have insisted there is an error in my account being closed/blocked, but you will keep the account closed until clarified. Please state who you are awaiting clarification from?


Well, that's my little bitch and moan out the way! I think they are confused about licence conditions and are naive to their responsibilities.

Rest assured, I am not unhappy if I had lost, more so that they allowed the account to be operational despite my concerns, then close it after I made further deposits and regardless to what the balance was!

Make sense to anyone? if not, not to worry. No more bitch and moans from me as I will be playing at my select few favourites now without trying anyone else!
According to the UKGC regulation if your SE is still active on PS then FT should restore your balance as if you never placed a bet, basically voiding all bets and winnings.

Deposits are to be returned to your deposit method or bank account!!!

I would try to get my deposits back as the UKGC is very clear on that.
 

RichyJ75

Silly Member
PABnonaccred
According to the UKGC regulation if your SE is still active on PS then FT should restore your balance as if you never placed a bet, basically voiding all bets and winnings.

Deposits are to be returned to your deposit method or bank account!!!

I would try to get my deposits back as the UKGC is very clear on that.

Cheers, that is pretty much what I thought as well. However, when I suggested that to them, that is when they said I selected a 120 day exclusion and not the 180, therefore the account at Full Tilt was permitted to be open! They have also accused me of making comments which are 'untrue', so basically telling fibs. It is like a brick wall communicating with them, so unfortunately it appears the matter should be taken elsewhere, especially if they are unclear what their procedures should be or what their duties are in compliance with UKGC rules and regulations.
 

Harry_BKK

Meister Member
CAG
mm1
Cheers, that is pretty much what I thought as well. However, when I suggested that to them, that is when they said I selected a 120 day exclusion and not the 180, therefore the account at Full Tilt was permitted to be open! They have also accused me of making comments which are 'untrue', so basically telling fibs. It is like a brick wall communicating with them, so unfortunately it appears the matter should be taken elsewhere, especially if they are unclear what their procedures should be or what their duties are in compliance with UKGC rules and regulations.
Very cheeky of them :eek:

IBAS would be your next stop.
 

RichyJ75

Silly Member
PABnonaccred
Well, they are now saying that technically I was not self excluded, extract as follows:

Please be aware that under the provisions of the UK Gaming laws; ONLY a 180-Day restriction is considered a 'self exclusion' and therefore this is the only instance where a 'GROUP' exclusion should be enforced (restriction applies to all applicable accounts on all platforms). Any time-frame below 6-months is technically a 'time-out' and therefore treated independently. In your case however, due to agent error; a 4 month restriction (120 days) was enforced wrongly on Full Tilt when in fact it was entirely separate.

In summary, take a break is not an exclusion and if there is a take a break on one platform of the licencee, you are still permitted to play on another platform under the same licence?

Oh well, we'll get there in the end. Learn something new every day and this is a learning curve!! Now reading up again on UKGC rules 3.3.4 and 3.5.3 .....
 

dunover

Unofficial T&C's Editor
Staff member
webmeister
PABnonaccred
PABnononaccred
CAG
mm3
Well, they are now saying that technically I was not self excluded, extract as follows:

Please be aware that under the provisions of the UK Gaming laws; ONLY a 180-Day restriction is considered a 'self exclusion' and therefore this is the only instance where a 'GROUP' exclusion should be enforced (restriction applies to all applicable accounts on all platforms). Any time-frame below 6-months is technically a 'time-out' and therefore treated independently. In your case however, due to agent error; a 4 month restriction (120 days) was enforced wrongly on Full Tilt when in fact it was entirely separate.

In summary, take a break is not an exclusion and if there is a take a break on one platform of the licencee, you are still permitted to play on another platform under the same licence?

Oh well, we'll get there in the end. Learn something new every day and this is a learning curve!! Now reading up again on UKGC rules 3.3.4 and 3.5.3 .....
You beat me to it - I was just about to justify their responses to you by asserting that you had TAB'd but not SE'd. Unusual for 120 days, usually the choices go up to 90 for TAB (unless you can type in the number of days yourself) and next step is 6 months plus for SE
 

Harry_BKK

Meister Member
CAG
mm1
Actually the UKGC stipulates that a TAB can be done only to a max of 6 weeks, paragraph 3.3.4

And for the SE they state it must me a minimum of 6 months, paragraph 3.5.4

Go figure what they think it should be called between 6 weeks - 6 months - TSE maybe??? :confused: :confused:
 

RichyJ75

Silly Member
PABnonaccred
Actually the UKGC stipulates that a TAB can be done only to a max of 6 weeks, paragraph 3.3.4

And for the SE they state it must me a minimum of 6 months, paragraph 3.5.4

Go figure what they think it should be called between 6 weeks - 6 months - TSE maybe??? :confused: :confused:


Well, it clearly puzzled some of their staff as well seeing as one chose to block my account and a couple more thought I could play on!

Good point though, re the period between 6 weeks and 6 months. That must be a grey area to enable the operator to make their own rules!!
 

RichyJ75

Silly Member
PABnonaccred
I really would like to put this to bed and move on, but it is niggling me further in light of the above.

Their reply to my previous e-mail was:

Kindly note that technically your PokerStars account is serving a 'time-out' from the perspective of the UKGC's provisions

I cannot find a provision for 120 days time out, only a maximum of 42 days (6 weeks). Obviously 120 days is somewhat lengthier than 42 days!

We shall not restore your privileges while there is a dispute concerning your losses and our enforcement of the UK laws. This is our own practice.

I have NEVER disputed my losses, only queried their procedures and implementation of UKGC rules in checking whether my account should be operational and if withdrawals would be honoured at Full Tilt given the 'exclusion' on the Pokerstars account. I did point out that if my account should have been blocked from the outset, the deposits should be returned if all bets were null and void, otherwise the account should be re-opened. Seems rather harsh that if you query their enforcement of the UK law, they simply block your account regardless of what your balance is!!!

Rule 3.3.4 states:

Social responsibility code provision 3.3.4
Remote time-out facility
All remote licences except: any remote lottery licence the holder of which does not
provide facilities for participation in instant win lotteries, ancillary remote betting licences,
remote betting standard (remote platform), gaming machine technical, gambling software,
ancillary remote bingo, ancillary remote casino and remote betting intermediary (trading
room only) licences.
This provision comes into force on 31 October 2015
1 Licensees must offer a ‘time out’ facility for customers for the following durations:
a 24 hours
b one week
c one month or
d such other period as the customer may reasonably request, up to a maximum of 6
weeks.
 
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