Bonus Complaint Am I correct or wrong?

TM1974

Dormant account
PABnononaccred
Joined
Jan 24, 2011
Location
Australia
I may have a PaB situation but didn't want to waste time of people. Before I contact a rep or fill out the PaB I wanted opinions of some of the wise members here please.

The situation is that I received a $150 free chip at a casino. Probably because I have lost a lot of money there and they were trying to tempt me back.
The casino terms is 45x wagering and it is actually 4x that number since I play table games. That makes the wagering at 27,000. OK, that is not a problem since it is a free chip and I played it. The rule states that there is a 5X maximum cashout rule in place and the free chip is non-cashable. OK again. I understand that too and I agree and play it.

I have great success and run my total well above the $750 Max cashout. As soon as I get to the wagering requirements they then take the $150 bonus out of the account PLUS all extra money. This was done the instant that I met Wagering and it was automatic.

Fair enough! They did take $1,877.50 from my account but that is their rules and they left me with just my cashable $750. The bonus was gone. My extra money was gone. There it is - my balance was now bonus free and sat at $750.

I then played some more and when I was finished I had built up my money to $1500! I withdrew this money but they only sent me $750. They took another $750 from my account claiming it was bonus!!! I explained that I had met the wagering requirements and that they had already took $1,877.50 from my account, thus leaving me with my own money. They say "no, you can never cashout more than $750 since it was a free chip"... but then I say you ALREADY took my free chip and extra money! You left me what was mine and I played it and won, you must pay me! They will not. Is this PaB worthy? Or rep contact worthy?

Thanks for advice.
I really feel like they stole from me.
 

Glunn11

Full Member
Joined
May 22, 2010
Location
Idaho
I'm afraid in all cases I've ever seen with these kinds of bonuses, the max cashout applies until you withdraw, regardless of whether or not you have completed wagering. It does suck, but I highly doubt a PaB would go far.

For future reference, withdraw immediately after completing wagering on one of these kinds of bonuses, then re-deposit to clear the max cashout and proceed play if you want.
 

Nifty29

Dormant account
Joined
Jun 20, 2001
Location
Turn right, then right. then right again
Wrong - completely wrong.

Unfortunately the maximum you can cash out as a result of the free chip is $750. The funds you used to generate the extra winnings were the result of a free chip i.e. you would not have been able to win the $1500 if you didn't have the $750, and you would not have had the $750 if it wasn't from the free chip. However you slice it, you arrive back at the source of all the winnings - the free chip.

You would be wasting your time on a PAB (IMO). Keep it for when you really need it.
 

ksech

Dormant account
Joined
Jul 27, 2007
Location
Here
Glunn11 nd Nifty29 are correct. You were still playing on the free chip money. Withdraw the $750 before you lose it. You have to be careful with bonuses that have a max cashout. Most bonuses, unless they have a no max cashout in the promo terms, are clearcut and most casinos adhere strictly to their promo terms.
 

KasinoKing

WebMeister & Slotaholic..
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PABnonaccred
CAG
MM
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Aug 25, 2004
Location
Bexhill on sea, England
Unless what you did was clearly forbidden in any of their T&C's; I completely disagree with the 3 posts above - especially if this is a CasinoMeister Accredited casino.

I would say definitely 100% submit a PAB.
I'm not saying it would definitely be successful, but any decent casino should see that what they did was not "in the spirit of the bonus".

If it IS an accredited casino, I would say their actions breached ALL of these CM conditions:
* Must not confiscate winnings for vague & unclear reasons, such as "irregular playing patterns" or "bonus abuse", without specific T&C violations.
* Must not implement terms that can be construed as "unfair" towards the player.
* No player shall be involuntarily placed into a situation which breaches the terms and conditions during the course of play.

KK
 

vinylweatherman

You type well loads
Joined
Oct 14, 2004
Location
United Kingdom
This is the stupidity of RTG.

Once they had removed the bonus and extra winnings, it makes NO DIFFERENCE whether the $750 is withdrawn and immediately redeposited, or whether it is played in-situ. In fact, it costs the casino MORE money this way, because the player has to withdraw the $750, and redeposit it again, which costs the casino TWICE OVER in processing fees. There is also no guarantee that the $750 will end up being played & lost at their casino, ot could (and really SHOULD) go to a DIFFERENT casino.

This is a complication purely for the sake of it. It serves NO purpose in protecting the casino, and can ONLY cause problems for the players because it DEFIES COMMON SENSE to do a process only to reverse it straight away for no benefit whatsoever.

Loads of players get caught ONCE with this, and this generates extra profit for the casinos through preying on the "newbie" player. Once caught out however, you should not fall for this again.

The funny thing is that NORMALLY, withdrawing money only to redeposit it straight away, is considered ABUSE by the casinos BECAUSE it saddles them with extra processing fees. In fact, the accredited casino Club World will "fine" players who repeadedly withdraw, only to redeposit the same funds almost immediately, and the "fine" represents the extra unnecessary processing charges the casino has had to pay.

It proves to ME that many of these "hoops" are designed specifically to catch out the unwary player, because they have NO beneficial effect in preventing "advantage play", and would NOT penalise savvy players who jumped through all the hoops in the correct order at the CASINO'S expense.

Because of all these sneaky "hoops", RTG casinos are able to offer what appear to be "too good to be true" promotions, and these little tricks are ALWAYS buried in the small print, NEVER right up there with the banner headline.
 

ksech

Dormant account
Joined
Jul 27, 2007
Location
Here
@KK, how is this wrong? The FREE chip had a max cashout of 5X ($750). From my minimal experience with bonuses (from even accredited casinos) once you have made the playthrough, you've cleared the non-cashable bonus monies, you are still locked into the max cashout rule no matter how much more you play. You would still be considered playing on the free chip money since there wasn't a withdrawal or reversal of withdrawal request. Is my line of rationale skewed?
 

Nifty29

Dormant account
Joined
Jun 20, 2001
Location
Turn right, then right. then right again
@KK, how is this wrong? The FREE chip had a max cashout of 5X ($750). From my minimal experience with bonuses (from even accredited casinos) once you have made the playthrough, you've cleared the non-cashable bonus monies, you are still locked into the max cashout rule no matter how much more you play. You would still be considered playing on the free chip money since there wasn't a withdrawal or reversal of withdrawal request. Is my line of rationale skewed?

No, you are correct.

The max cashout from the free money is $750

All the winnings were generated as a result of the free chip. There were no deposits made by the player. When the casino removes the excess funds, the remainder is the maximum that can be cashed out. It is irrelevant what happens after that - the maximum is the maximum. You will find this applies at all casinos that have max cashouts.

KK - you should email a dozen or so of your casino contacts and put the question to them. I'll bet $10 of Ksech's money that all of them say they wouldn't pay.

Don't forget the player is still being paid the $750. It isn't like they are being ripped off.

I have personally never heard of anyone being paid any extra winnings in this kind of case.
 

vinylweatherman

You type well loads
Joined
Oct 14, 2004
Location
United Kingdom
@KK, how is this wrong? The FREE chip had a max cashout of 5X ($750). From my minimal experience with bonuses (from even accredited casinos) once you have made the playthrough, you've cleared the non-cashable bonus monies, you are still locked into the max cashout rule no matter how much more you play. You would still be considered playing on the free chip money since there wasn't a withdrawal or reversal of withdrawal request. Is my line of rationale skewed?

It's not skewed, but this is NOT something that ever gets EXPLAINED to a "newbie", and is by no means obvious in the terms.

The fact that an immediate confiscation of the excess winnings and original chip makes it look like the "contract" has ALREADY been terminated through an in-play adjustment. This is a recent development, and the old way was MUCH clearer because there was NO adjustment done UNTIL a withdrawal was made. This made it much clearer to the player that this adjustment was STILL going to be made later on, and would give a clear message that a withdrawal had to be made to cause this to be done.

The old system was clearer, and it WORKED, so WHY did RTG muck around with it to produce a system that fooled players because it made the adjustment in-play, but did NOTHING to make the player aware that he MUST also withdraw there & then to complete the process. Instead, the software just lets play continue, even though this is pointless.

Since this adjustment is instant and automatic, how come the software can't automatically launch the cashier with a "withdraw now" prompt to the player.

This is unique to RTG, as other casinos using max cashouts STILL make the adjustment once the player has decided to stop playing, and submits a withdrawal request.

It is the pedantic player who does everything "by the book" that gets the best deal, even though this costs the casino more, and is usually NOT the average "recreational player" that casinos like, but the savvy, possibly "advantage", player that casinos have to defend against.

This kind of thing also turns "recreational" players into "advantage" players, since after something like this happens, they do further research, and become wise to the TRUE nature of the relationship between online casinos and players, and along the way, learn many of the "clever" ways of playing with promotional offers in order NOT to get stung by something else the next time.

The OP has now learned that this is NOT simply a case of play & get paid, it is a case of read the terms, do the math, choose the offer, and choose optimum strategy to reap maximum benefit. Rather than playing on with the $750, optimum strategy is to withdraw it, and then hunt for the next offer to take advantage of, rather than just "have fun" by playing on until they feel they want to stop for the day.
 

ksech

Dormant account
Joined
Jul 27, 2007
Location
Here
Diggin' through my wallet for a tenspot...
I thought maybe I misread the OP's post and went back to read it. But there was no mention of the OP withdrawing and redepositing. So, I didn't understand where I had given incorrect information. :confused:
 

greasemonkey

Banned User - flaming
Joined
Jul 2, 2010
Location
USA
The OP mentions losing lots of money in the casino. He/she must have deposited then at some point? I'm confused LOL.
Just from reading the post it doesn't make any sense. I kinda can see when nifty explains it but it is like double jeopardy. In all RTG terms, once you complete bonus requirements then the money is yours and your free from any limiting rules.
If they took all that money out of the OP's acct already then that money is the players to withdraw OR play I would think. Why would the casino WANT the withdrawal? They wouldn't. They would surely want the OP to play and lose it back. They already took the bonus/extra winnings once bonus play was over, so to take more seems like excessive bending of the rules from a common sense perspective.
 

vinylweatherman

You type well loads
Joined
Oct 14, 2004
Location
United Kingdom
Diggin' through my wallet for a tenspot...
I thought maybe I misread the OP's post and went back to read it. But there was no mention of the OP withdrawing and redepositing. So, I didn't understand where I had given incorrect information. :confused:

He didn't - it just didn't make sense that this would be necessary since he did NOT want to stop playing at that point, he wanted more "recreation". This is a case of "rules for the sake of rules" being applied to the letter. The player SHOULD have been equally pedantic, withdrawing the $750, logging out, and depositing another $750, before continuing.

The OP mentions losing lots of money in the casino. He/she must have deposited then at some point? I'm confused LOL.
Just from reading the post it doesn't make any sense. I kinda can see when nifty explains it but it is like double jeopardy. In all RTG terms, once you complete bonus requirements then the money is yours and your free from any limiting rules.
If they took all that money out of the OP's acct already then that money is the players to withdraw OR play I would think. Why would the casino WANT the withdrawal? They wouldn't. They would surely want the OP to play and lose it back. They already took the bonus/extra winnings once bonus play was over, so to take more seems like excessive bending of the rules from a common sense perspective.

They don't normally, it costs them money. Players who repeatedly withdraw only to redeposit moments later are a right "pain" because of the extra costs. It is then the CASINO that argues "it doesn't make sense" to the player, and often charges them for the extra fees incurred. The ONLY difference here is that the casino has placed this hoop to jump through at the end of the promotion, and if the jump misses, the casino gets to keep the money if the player loses it back, yet does NOT have to pay if the player wins again.

This new system is designed to fool the non-savvy player into believing the contract is over, and the money then theirs with no further strings attached. To my knowledge, ONLY RTG has this odd system, other casinos adjust AFTER the player cashes out, so all the time the player is playing, they do so in the knowledge that they are STILL facing the removal of the bonus and capping of the winnings when they withdraw.

NOWHERE is this peculiar mechanism described, so there is no way players can learn about this from the casino's own website.

Experienced players are the ones who express surprise that a player would be caught out like this, but they benefit from the experience that a new player has yet to gain.

I certainly wouldn't be caught out, not because this has actually happened to me, but because it has been discussed before in the forum, and the mechanism explained.
 

KasinoKing

WebMeister & Slotaholic..
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@KK, how is this wrong? The FREE chip had a max cashout of 5X ($750). From my minimal experience with bonuses (from even accredited casinos) once you have made the playthrough, you've cleared the non-cashable bonus monies, you are still locked into the max cashout rule no matter how much more you play. You would still be considered playing on the free chip money since there wasn't a withdrawal or reversal of withdrawal request. Is my line of rationale skewed?
Skewed or not, in the rules or not... bottom line is, do YOU think the casino's actions are FAIR?
I don't.
Just my opinion; I don't think it's fair and I think the OP should go ahead and PAB.

I am literally just about to go out the door to go to Bryan's party in London - when I see Max I'll ask him in person what he thinks! ;)

KK
 

vinylweatherman

You type well loads
Joined
Oct 14, 2004
Location
United Kingdom
Skewed or not, in the rules or not... bottom line is, do YOU think the casino's actions are FAIR?
I don't.
Just my opinion; I don't think it's fair and I think the OP should go ahead and PAB.

I am literally just about to go out the door to go to Bryan's party in London - when I see Max I'll ask him in person what he thinks! ;)

KK

Without knowing the casino concerned, we cannot know whether this IS something clearly stated in the terms, or something the player is "just supposed to know", which would of course be unfair.

There is also the matter that something is unfair, even though it IS stated in the terms and conditions.

This is surely a system whereby the player is placed in the position of "involuntarily breaching the terms".

I didn't leave for the party, since I would so far have missed TWO couriers delivering some stuff I ordered on the internet, and if these came just now, the other item I am expecting (and which was dispatched at the same time) could well follow later on today.

Last time I wasn't in to receive a gift from an unknown casino, I never ever got it in the end because they wouldn't redeliver it, and their depot was MILES away. They couldn't tell me who sent it either.

To be honest, I thought the whole thing was a scam.
 

Jasminebed

Game old gal
Joined
Mar 13, 2008
Location
Ontario
To my mind, max cashout means just that. I've contacted CS asking if I could withdraw and reverse in the past... no go.

I must agree that it might seem a little silly on the part of the casino... but it's their house and their rules.
 

vinylweatherman

You type well loads
Joined
Oct 14, 2004
Location
United Kingdom
To my mind, max cashout means just that. I've contacted CS asking if I could withdraw and reverse in the past... no go.

I must agree that it might seem a little silly on the part of the casino... but it's their house and their rules.

So, if it is so clear cut, why the messing around?

Adjust on withdrawal, Simple. Player knows where they stand.

When they adjust during play, player is no longer sure, but often THINKS they are, so don't ask questions.

The old system worked just fine, player cashed out when they were done, and KNEW how much they would receive because of the rules.

Now, RTG fixed something that didn't need fixing, and turned a straight forward system into something far more complicated for the player to grasp.

This is not the ONLY problem with this system either, since other cases have highlighted that unless the player has sharp reflexes, they can play on past this point, and eat into a max cashout that has ALREADY been adjusted ready for withdrawal, thus they don't even get the max amount allowed.

I certainly don't see a "stop on max cashout WR" button in their autospin:rolleyes:

Cash out on the dot of meeting WR at a RIVAL casino, and they scream "abuser!" at you & kick you out! DON'T do it at RTG, and they PUNISH you for it.

These are rules designed to "screw the player", and they can get away with it using the defence "it's in the small print, tough!".

We should stand up for the newbies, as well as our own. It's a bad system, and needs to be got rid of to prevent players falling into these situations without really understanding them.

All very well smiling smugly to ourselves thinking "wouldn't catch ME out with that old trick", but there was a time when they WOULD have stitched us up good & proper with a similar ploy, and this is how players learn the TRUE nature of casinos vs players, rather than believing the bullshit about "entertainment" or "recreation" they would have us believe.

It's GAMBLING, and the pitting of skills against each other, they have NO interest in "entertaining" us for a pittance, they are after our cash, and as much of it as they can get away with. Naturally, WE are after THEIR cash, and as much as possible allowed by the rules. The "entertainment" is in pitting OUR wits against THEIRS, and figuring out which of the promotions are the "duds", and which are worth a go.

An RTG free chip under the new capping system is NOT something for the novice, since you have to disengage from "common sense", and study the offer thorougly, and track your play pretty precisely. NO room for "having a bit of fun" with your balance and thinking you will just be able to carry on until you no longer feel "entertained".
 

Scooter7

Meister Member
Joined
Jun 16, 2005
Location
Toronto
When the removal of the free chip and excess winnings is automated as described by the OP, it gives a very strong indication that the bonus play is over even though I (and most of you) understand that it is still quite possible to interpret the situation the same way the casino does. Ambiguity is not a desirable thing when dealing with financial transactions. Creating a cluster-f#^% of a PR issue becomes the likely outcome when that happens.

Casinos do b*$%$ and moan about processing fees and unnecessary deposit/withdrawal combos. That's why it makes no sense to 'force' two transactions unless they are truly trying to encourage people to keep playing without a withdrawal to put themselves in a no-lose situation (player loses-money comes back-may make another deposit OR player wins more, but is denied the winnings because of broken T&C's).

It would be nearly impossible to prove that the casino planned the no-lose scenario, but if they didn't, then it's quite a nice stroke of luck that it worked out that way;)
 

vinylweatherman

You type well loads
Joined
Oct 14, 2004
Location
United Kingdom
When the removal of the free chip and excess winnings is automated as described by the OP, it gives a very strong indication that the bonus play is over even though I (and most of you) understand that it is still quite possible to interpret the situation the same way the casino does. Ambiguity is not a desirable thing when dealing with financial transactions. Creating a cluster-f#^% of a PR issue becomes the likely outcome when that happens.

Casinos do b*$%$ and moan about processing fees and unnecessary deposit/withdrawal combos. That's why it makes no sense to 'force' two transactions unless they are truly trying to encourage people to keep playing without a withdrawal to put themselves in a no-lose situation (player loses-money comes back-may make another deposit OR player wins more, but is denied the winnings because of broken T&C's).

It would be nearly impossible to prove that the casino planned the no-lose scenario, but if they didn't, then it's quite a nice stroke of luck that it worked out that way;)

This is a RECENT development, and the system it replaced had nothing wrong with it, as players were STILL only going to get the max cashout.

Players certainly DO interpret this as meaning "bonus play is over", but THIS also means "the money left is now 100% yours, do what you want with it as we have ALREADY removed the excess winnings and bonus as per terms and conditions". There is NO mention that yet ANOTHER specific sequence of action is needed, which ISN'T automated.

I fail to see why they could not also have automated the presentation of the cashier to the player when the adjustment was done, as this would make things MUCH clearer as to the expected course of action then needed from the player.
 

Scooter7

Meister Member
Joined
Jun 16, 2005
Location
Toronto
Players certainly DO interpret this as meaning "bonus play is over", but THIS also means "the money left is now 100% yours, do what you want with it as we have ALREADY removed the excess winnings and bonus as per terms and conditions". There is NO mention that yet ANOTHER specific sequence of action is needed, which ISN'T automated.

Agreed. Personally, I believe they're aware of the potential confusion and are counting on it to either lose less or make more money. The only problem is that (as I stated), there's no way in hell that you could easily prove it.

We're left with a scenario where it's very likely that they're acting in a rogue-ish manner, but the chances of being caught are highly un-likely.
 

chayton

aka LooHoo
webmeister
PABnonaccred
CAG
Joined
Jun 5, 2006
Location
Edmonton Canada
Every RTG I play has this rule with a free chip. Once you've reached wagering and you've got the max cashout, you need to cash out - there's no use playing any more because although there's a very good chance you'll lose, there's no way to be able to win/cashout more. Also some of them don't even give you comps when you're playing on a freebie.

When RTG started implementing that "all bonus monies are removed when WR are met" I thought it was silly - that means that as soon as you meet WR you should just cashout instead of playing more - that's completely opposite to "playing with the spirit of the bonus" isn't it?

But that's the way it is - to the OP, sorry but max cashout means max cashout and I really doubt that a PAB will get you anywhere. If I were you I'd tell them thanks for the freebie and walk away with your $750 and a big smile. :D
 
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