Altercation at CAP Euro

spearmaster

RIP Ted
Joined
Jan 12, 2001
Location
Heaven
Without compromising anything, I'll tell you that you were probably looking at or for the wrong thing.

Obviously I wouldn't have said anything without good reason - so if you can't find it, it probably wasn't you LOL. In any case, I felt that some order was required so I said so, without pointing fingers or highlighting instances which I felt wasn't required. It was not done with the intention of restricting further discussion.

If you or anyone else is unsure as to what the problem might be, may I suggest reading the forum terms and conditions again? :)
 

maxd

Complaints (PAB) Manager
Staff member
Joined
Jan 20, 2004
Location
Saltirelandia
If you or anyone else is unsure as to what the problem might be, may I suggest reading the forum terms and conditions again? :)

And don't forget the value of a well-timed PM. A direct, private question to one of the mods about where the problem may lie can often get your questions answered in moments whereas the public debate can take days and have all kinds of undesirable spin-offs.
 

spearmaster

RIP Ted
Joined
Jan 12, 2001
Location
Heaven
And don't forget the value of a well-timed PM. A direct, private question to one of the mods about where the problem may lie can often get your questions answered in moments whereas the public debate can take days and have all kinds of undesirable spin-offs.

Yeah... well-time those PMs to Max, he's omnipresent :) You can feel free to PM me as well - as some members already do - but my hours are vastly different to most others so you may not necessarily get a quick response.
 

lots0

Banned User - troll posts - flaming
Joined
Jun 3, 2006
Location
Hell on Earth
Back on subject

I have one thing to say to J. Todd...

Sir, you have my respect, you have the personal restraint of the Sphinx.

If Lou had called me out... I'd have happily beat the crap out of him.
Ya... Im like that...
 

jod5413

Is That Better?
Joined
Mar 6, 2007
Location
somewhere on the planet
The past five years that I have hung around here I can hardly remember no more than one or two instances where certain threads have gotten out of hand, so in that respect I think that the forum members here, both past and present have done a purdy good job of maintaining civility without the need to be warned often.

Hey Robwin,

As someone that has lurked for at least six or more years, played on line even longer, and just decided to join and post in '07, I can certainly understand why the mods have to speak up more and more. The old time posters were a different breed than today's poster (some are still here, you know who they are). Not saying better or worse, just more into simply gambling and gambling issues. Now, it is more of a "social network" with twists and turns, many different styles of posting, many different types of thought processes from many different walks of life. Many people who have no time to research and really find out what the true issues are and/or the history behind the industry, and they "guess" and speak out. Sometimes inappropriately, myself included! :p

Just my two cents.
 

Simmo!

Moderator
Joined
May 29, 2004
Location
England
Most people are pretty respectful and sensible here it must be said which is how it should be :) And I think Spearmaster always wanted to be a traffic warden but when they rejected him, moderating was the only option left to inflict misery and practice the dark art of sadism :D
 

vinylweatherman

You type well loads
Joined
Oct 14, 2004
Location
United Kingdom
Dom, J Todd an them keep saying no 1 was hurt no punches was thrown
WTF they put this Steven kid in the police chicken wing stance an from what the Officers my daughter serves at her job say this is not a very smooth move Steven is hurting today because of a ASSHOLE named LOU
an I think the son might have a lawsuit against Cap the Hotel the private security etc if it proven he has done no wrong an from what I have read he hasnt

Lou a grown man with a heart condition yeah an I am pregnat with 8 kids on the way
Dom goes in 1 post I wasnt hit some 1 else posted didnt see where any 1 asked about you Dom
she also posted Lou isnt dead havent seen any reports of the demise of Lou

DRAMA they are trying to sidestep the issues an hope all will be forgot

I hope all the affilates Dump CAP an what ever they would do better on their own

of course this is all IMO an you affilates should be thinkin the same way

Good Luck to all

Cindy:D

WTF - this involves UK "doorstaff", who were forced to accept regulation and strict licensing because of incidents like this. Event organisers can indeed pick and choose who they admit to private events, however, they cannot order the ejection, especially in this manner, when someone has legitimate purpose to be at another venue within the same building, and/or is a paying guest.
Forget about the CAP argument, what about the hotel who allowed this assault to take place. The hotel and doorstaff should NEVER have allowed themselves to be used as a tool in a personal vendetta between two organisations. The public setting will make a face saving cover-up difficult, especially if there have been complaints made by bystanders who witnessed the event but were nothing to do with this gathering.
It is no wonder the hotel is said to have instructed the staff not to do this again, but it may be too late, they may already be receiving attention from the local authority about the handling of this affair.

It will be up to Steven to make a complaint, if he declines to do so, and settle this in private, probably nothing much further will come of this, other than an internal reprimand for the staff involved, however, Steven is in a strong position, as it seems that violence was first offered by doorstaff on Lou's orders, while Steven was apparently simply attending his own gatherings elsewhere in the hotel.

I thought this affair was simmering down, but it seems it was merely building up a head of steam fit to blow at the first weakness.

I thought CAP was the biggest, and most professional, of the various "clubs" designed to help affiliates develop their business, but the description of this affair reminds me of those old gangster movies more than a set of side events surrounding the main event at London last week.

Probably glad I WASN'T there, and not sure I would want to be either if this is going to be how things are run for the near future.

I have not seen if this has gone mainstream, e.g. local and national news, if it has, this could be bad for the industry, and if there was general press coverage, and it spilled onto the street, it has probably made it at least to local coverage. It's the kind of event that newbie reporters probably get sent to, unlikely to generate much of a story, and a bit mundane - some reporter might want to impress the boss to get a better assignment next time, and maybe will exaggerate the proceedings for some local rag circulated within London.
Any Londoners care to have a look for the next couple of days?
 

theAPCW

Dormant account
Joined
Mar 5, 2006
Location
Washington State, USA
Hello friends...

It's late here and I am up watching the Super Bowl before I head home tomorrow. I'm not going to say too much for a couple of reasons: First, because it's an extremely delicate situation, I know Michael will want most statements to come from him. And second, it's not my intentions to "stir the pot" more just as things are calming down.

I did want to stop in and thank you all for the comments and support. If anything good has come of this, at least our community has universally said that this sort of activity is unacceptable. And Lots0, it's probably best I didn't go outside with him. But the thought did cross my mind that I may have just missed a big pay day if I woulda let him hit me :thumbsup:

SwampWitch, I'm sorry you feel this may have been some sort of stunt. but I assure you this would have been far too complicated for us to pull off! LOL! And besides the fact that Michael would never entertain such a thought, CAP would never intentionally do anything to empower us.

Ted, it was great to see you again... looking forward to meeting up in Macau.

Bryan, sorry we missed each other this time. See you at CAC in the 'Dam.
 

swampwitch

ProfessionalUnderachiever
Joined
Nov 20, 2002
Location
Iowa, dammit.
SwampWitch, I'm sorry you feel this may have been some sort of stunt. but I assure you this would have been far too complicated for us to pull off! LOL!
Now now, don't sell yourself short at this late stage.

And besides the fact that Michael would never entertain such a thought, CAP would never intentionally do anything to empower us.
Uh huh. Michael didn't have a problem defending Lou when he was caught red-handed trying to sell player databases, and the GPWA has been CAP's biggest cheerleader (I must be mellowing, since I normally use the term "butt-monkey") since Michael bought the joint.

But, no matter. Within the next couple of weeks I'm sure Lou will apologize, and Michael will apologize, and CardSpike will turn out to be a misunderstanding, yadda yadda...and CAP and the GPWA will rent out one of the "coffee shops" in Amsterdam at the next conference and all differences will be bonged, I mean banged out.

Actually, that last bit might get me to show up.....:cool:
 

RobWin

closed account
Joined
Apr 24, 2004
Location
A Vault!
Now now, don't sell yourself short at this late stage.


Uh huh. Michael didn't have a problem defending Lou when he was caught red-handed trying to sell player databases, and the GPWA has been CAP's biggest cheerleader (I must be mellowing, since I normally use the term "butt-monkey") since Michael bought the joint.

But, no matter. Within the next couple of weeks I'm sure Lou will apologize, and Michael will apologize, and CardSpike will turn out to be a misunderstanding, yadda yadda...and CAP and the GPWA will rent out one of the "coffee shops" in Amsterdam at the next conference and all differences will be bonged, I mean banged out.

Actually, that last bit might get me to show up.....:cool:

Well, if that is the way it goes down then the GPWA and the APCW will lose a lot of supporters, and some hard core one's included, like me a few others I know...I hope you are wrong about that one Swampy...:cool:
 

Casinomeister

Forum Cheermeister
Staff member
Joined
Jun 30, 1998
Location
Bierland
...But, no matter. Within the next couple of weeks I'm sure Lou will apologize, and Michael will apologize, and CardSpike will turn out to be a misunderstanding, yadda yadda...and CAP and the GPWA will rent out one of the "coffee shops" in Amsterdam at the next conference and all differences will be bonged, I mean banged out...
I think you are trivializing this a bit too much. There are some serious issues that have been addressed, and a few others that still need to be dealt with.

The Cardspike and conflict of interest issues are serious. But that's something CAP needs to work out. If this is something that they want to do - that's their business. If they want to skirt around issues, and explain things with evasive answers - that's their business. It's up to webmasters and affiliate programs to make smart choices on their own and decide what or whom they wish to work with.

The drama that has excited everyone so much is really unnecessary and makes things a lot worse for people whose livelihoods are directly affected with this fiasco.

If the GPWA and CAP are willing to discuss things in an adult businesslike manner - why cut it down?
 

lots0

Banned User - troll posts - flaming
Joined
Jun 3, 2006
Location
Hell on Earth
I don't know Bryan. I think this effects everyone in the business, not just CAP, PAP and GWPA.

The drama that has excited everyone so much is really unnecessary and makes things a lot worse for people whose livelihoods are directly affected with this fiasco.
I guess I don't understand who's income has been hurt, Besides Lou and Warren?

Like you said Bryan, Webmasters and Players will make their choices, but they all NEED unbiased information on which to base their decisions.

Deciding to take things 'undercover' only makes us all look bad.
 

Casinomeister

Forum Cheermeister
Staff member
Joined
Jun 30, 1998
Location
Bierland
I guess I don't understand who's income has been hurt, Besides Lou and Warren?

I'm talking about the drama; most of the "drama" we've heard is BS (rumours and speculations). The problem is, that's what too many people seem to focus on - the drama.

BTW, when I mean livelihood, I'm meaning all aspects of one's business - not primarily income. So I include quite a few people into this equation.
 

swampwitch

ProfessionalUnderachiever
Joined
Nov 20, 2002
Location
Iowa, dammit.
If the GPWA and CAP are willing to discuss things in an adult businesslike manner - why cut it down?
Maybe because this isn't their first time at the rodeo? There's always drama between the two entities, and then they kiss and make up. Too bad if that's a trivialization on my part...it's the simple truth.

The players, and we affiliates...especially we non-superaffiliates...are better served by having more than one affy organization. For all intents and purposes, until this CardSpike fiasco, CAP and the GPWA were the same freaking organization. Monopolies suck, and believe me when I say I'm not the only small webmaster to have been screwed over by certain members of one organization, then joined a different organization in the hopes of more ethical treatment, only to find that said second organization is totally in bed with the first. There's no healthy competition in a monopolized industry, only kill or sell out.

So you'll excuse me if I'm a bit jaded, and yes, suspicious. I don't particularly want the two entities to get back to being the Amazing Mongo and His Parasitic Twin. History shows that within weeks everything will be back to the way it was.

If, in the long run, I turn out to be wrong, great. Great for the industry, great for the small guy. If I'm right, I'll just bask in my jaded self-righteousness in silence.:p
 

jetset

RIP Brian
Joined
Feb 22, 2001
Location
Earth
I think you are trivializing this a bit too much. There are some serious issues that have been addressed, and a few others that still need to be dealt with.

The Cardspike and conflict of interest issues are serious. But that's something CAP needs to work out. If this is something that they want to do - that's their business. If they want to skirt around issues, and explain things with evasive answers - that's their business. It's up to webmasters and affiliate programs to make smart choices on their own and decide what or whom they wish to work with.

The drama that has excited everyone so much is really unnecessary and makes things a lot worse for people whose livelihoods are directly affected with this fiasco.

If the GPWA and CAP are willing to discuss things in an adult businesslike manner - why cut it down?

I absolutely agree - if there was anything positive at all to come out of these embarrassing and downright shocking events it is the fact that the seriousness of the situation has at last apparently brought about the hopefully mature discussions that should have been taking place way back.

The CAP route forward will hopefully also be receiving more scrutiny from both within and outside the organisation - in this volatile and highly charged atmosphere all it will take to cause some major changes in a business sense would be for a few of the major programs and affiliates to start distancing themselves from the public and not-so-public happenings of recent months.

If CAP management haven't yet taken that on board they should not be in business at all.

What's needed now are calm and wise heads all around, with a focus on the ethical, professional and fair conduct of business.

That doesn't have to equate to a "monopoly" - there can be sensible competition without resorting to some of the shocking stuff that has come out in the wash over the last few months.
 
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lots0

Banned User - troll posts - flaming
Joined
Jun 3, 2006
Location
Hell on Earth
Bryan, I think it is unrealistic for some in the business to want to keep this quiet and undercover, after so many people have been screwed over by these guys.

As far as peoples business being hurt... well after all the dirty crap that has been going on for such a very long time, I think maybe their business should be hurt.

If a business is close enough to these guys to be hurt by all this 'Drama', maybe they made a bad choice and now they gotta pay the piper.

again just my 2 cents...
 

Webzcas

Winter is Coming!
Staff member
Joined
Mar 31, 2005
Location
Block S25, South Stand, Ashton Gate, BS3
With regards this incident. Alex has issued an apology to Steven as has Lou I believe -
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This issue is IMO now a private matter and it is not helpful or healthy that we concentrate on it. It is up for the parties concerned to deal with.

What needs to be concentrated on is the CardSpike issue and the allegations made against CAP concerning CardSpike. I am waiting for the management of Affiliate Media to comment on the pretty damning evidence linking CardSpike with Lou and Warren. I guess though sometimes silence can speak a 1000 words.

No doubt, whatever happens we will not see an immediate reaction from the affiliate community - Affiliates and Programs. More likely a measured response will prevail over the coming weeks.
 

lots0

Banned User - troll posts - flaming
Joined
Jun 3, 2006
Location
Hell on Earth
I guess I lump all these issues into one.
Cardspike and the Hotel incident as far as I'm concerned are all just part of the same bigger issue... Unethical and fraudulent behavior by someone that set themselves up as an Advocate.
 

RobWin

closed account
Joined
Apr 24, 2004
Location
A Vault!
No doubt, whatever happens we will not see an immediate reaction from the affiliate community - Affiliates and Programs.


IMO, that's the sad part that most affiliates and programs connected to CAP are not willing to immediately stand up for the greater good of this industry regarding morals and also speak out and demand proper behavior and transparency from this organization. If enough of them would do this, then it could drastically effect the outcome of this mess for the greater good.
 

spearmaster

RIP Ted
Joined
Jan 12, 2001
Location
Heaven
IMO, that's the sad part that most affiliates and programs connected to CAP are not willing to immediately stand up for the greater good of this industry regarding morals and also speak out and demand proper behavior and transparency from this organization. If enough of them would do this, then it could drastically effect the outcome of this mess for the greater good.

A number of affiliates have already done as you suggested. And a number of them are waiting for more details.

As for programs - many of them have contracts that they need to maintain - they cannot just breach those contracts.
 

lots0

Banned User - troll posts - flaming
Joined
Jun 3, 2006
Location
Hell on Earth
As for programs - many of them have contracts that they need to maintain - they cannot just breach those contracts.
Sure they can. If they want too.
It is called "cause" and it is in just about every legal contract.
No contract is going to force the casinos to do business with someone that is double dealing on them.

I guess it boils down to those that are willing to do business with an unethical and possibly criminal enterprise and those that will not...
 

spearmaster

RIP Ted
Joined
Jan 12, 2001
Location
Heaven
Sure they can. If they want too.
It is called "cause" and it is in just about every legal contract.
No contract is going to force the casinos to do business with someone that is double dealing on them.

I guess it boils down to those that are willing to do business with an unethical and possibly criminal enterprise and those that will not...

Programs would still have to prove "cause". And as I don't think you or I are privy to these contracts, you or I aren't in any position to say if these contracts can be properly terminated, or if a "cause" term even exists.
 

lots0

Banned User - troll posts - flaming
Joined
Jun 3, 2006
Location
Hell on Earth
Programs would still have to prove "cause".
Not quite. If CAP brought the action they would have to prove the Casino had no 'cause' to break the contract and CAP would be the ones bringing the action, not the casino that wanted out of the Contract.

And 'Cause' is a Legal respite to ANY bad Contract in the USA.
 

spearmaster

RIP Ted
Joined
Jan 12, 2001
Location
Heaven
Not quite. If CAP brought the action they would have to prove the Casino had no 'cause' to break the contract and CAP would be the ones bringing the action, not the casino that wanted out of the Contract.

And 'Cause' is a Legal respite to ANY bad Contract in the USA.

Just the same, a program has to analyze the situation before making any move one way or the other.

Again, as we are not privy to the contracts, we don't know which jurisdiction any such case should be heard in.
 

Webzcas

Winter is Coming!
Staff member
Joined
Mar 31, 2005
Location
Block S25, South Stand, Ashton Gate, BS3
Surely any decision would be taken after lengthy discussion and would be based purely on business and financial reasons. It would be stupid to withdraw your sponsorship/certified status if you are only 1 week into a 3 month contract for example - having already paid up your quarterly fee in advance. Having to face the very real possibility of having to issue a law suit to get said fee back.

Also I am sure most groups would like to discreetly and quietly withdraw if that is their intention, rather than leave in a blast of publicity. As I am sure all do not want to be associated with any negative publicity - which is what the whole CAP CardSpike Saga is for the industry - Damaging and not healthy.

No knee jerk reactions will be taking place by the programs. However I would not be surprised to see some kind of response over the next few weeks/couple of months.

With regards affiliates - What Spear said.
 
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