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Mr_Slot5

Senior Member
Joined
May 6, 2019
Location
Cheshire
If there's question about your affordability, then one of the questions can be how these deposits are funded and confirm all funds used have legit sources. It's these days hard to keep playing and not get SOW request at some point, getting to new casino every time when getting SOW request is an option but maybe not really convenient either.

But why?

AML directive application should not be common for people not deemed high risk...which probably applies to 80% of punters.

This is the issue with applying a non time specific blanket threshold approach.

For the vast majority of people, a wage slip should suffice.
 

pinnit2014

Meister Member
PABnoaccred
mm1
Joined
Dec 13, 2014
Location
Glasgow and Home - N Ireland
AFAIK there is, aside from certain categories of High Value goods such as antiques, no monetary amount in the AML's, yet some casinos are obviously applying their own arbitrary amounts - did Dunover not say the other day he got a SOW for 3k of deposits? That's ridiculous, more so if that 3k has been spread out over a period of time.

Casino's are probably loathe to adopt the risk based approach (which they should be doing) because it's more subjective, open to criticism etc.
 

brianmon

Ueber Meister
webby
mm4
Joined
May 22, 2013
Location
Cumbria
I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that the period for the SOW threshold can be chosen by the casino.
So some might adopt a 3k threshold over a month. Some 3k over a year, and others, 3k over the lifetime of the account.
Anyone depositing 3K over 3 or 4 years or even 3k over a year, isn't going to be doing much money laundering or depositing irresponsibly.
But it's probably a different story for someone depositing 3k every month.

If every casino is adopting different threshold and different periods. Quite a lot of them are probably causing themselves more work and expense, and customer dissatisfaction, than they need to.

If the Malta-based casinos are misinterpreting the regulations ( it seems to be the malta ones whoo are having most of the problems). Then why don't they all form some sort of association and press the UKGC for clearer guidance? They'd stand more chance as a whole, of making improvements, than just each individual group complaining. If indeed any of them have actually complained.
 

Slottery

Meister Member
PABnoaccred
MM
Joined
Aug 21, 2017
Location
Malta
But why?

AML directive application should not be common for people not deemed high risk...which probably applies to 80% of punters.

This is the issue with applying a non time specific blanket threshold approach.

For the vast majority of people, a wage slip should suffice.

You only can know it after your player proves it. There are no any casino exceptions like silently were in place for some years. They can't be sure where your money is coming if not asking you to prove it.

Like mentioned in some earlier post, smurfing is maybe biggest threats for online casinos from AML point of view and there people who deposit and withdraw from casinos never make themselves to reach any higher amounts than person with average disposable income would do but for sure under.

For many wage slip is enough but often more can be demanded, it's really case by case without able to provide exact guidelines what/where/when as these in a same moment are noted for all who are highly interested about them and how to get around.

Can only guess as not making these AML directives and who and how need to implement them to their businesses but usually these obligations are not made any easier but more other direction.
 

colinsunderland

On a Break
Joined
Jan 28, 2016
Location
uk
You only can know it after your player proves it. There are no any casino exceptions like silently were in place for some years. They can't be sure where your money is coming if not asking you to prove it.

Like mentioned in some earlier post, smurfing is maybe biggest threats for online casinos from AML point of view and there people who deposit and withdraw from casinos never make themselves to reach any higher amounts than person with average disposable income would do but for sure under.

For many wage slip is enough but often more can be demanded, it's really case by case without able to provide exact guidelines what/where/when as these in a same moment are noted for all who are highly interested about them and how to get around.

Can only guess as not making these AML directives and who and how need to implement them to their businesses but usually these obligations are not made any easier but more other direction.

A wage slip can't be enough to show affordability or for AML purposes. Which is why it shouldn't be up to a casino to do this.

I could earn £30k a year, live with my parents, not have any outgoings at all except clothes and travel to and from work.

I could earn £60k a year, live in a 6 bed house in the centre of London and pay £30k a year on my mortgage, have a personal loan costing £6k a year and car repayments costing £6k a year. Other bills, insurances etc another £6k a year.

I could deposit £15k into a casino over a year. A wage slip would show the 60k a year would be able to afford that better than a 30k one, but in reality it's the other way round.

A casino shouldn't be the one to delve deeper into things.
 

Kroffe

เ๓ ค Ŧคภςץ ๒єคг
MM
Joined
Mar 2, 2019
Location
sweden
I go to ikea for those ... after lockdown obviously lol
Nothing wrong with Ikeas meatballs.
I usually swing by Ikea for lunch if im in the area of one during lunchtime. Decent quality for a good price. =)
But dont go comparing those to the moose-masterpieces i create at home.
 

dealer wins

Meister Member
Joined
Oct 25, 2006
Location
London the sh$thole
A wage slip can't be enough to show affordability or for AML purposes. Which is why it shouldn't be up to a casino to do this.

I could earn £30k a year, live with my parents, not have any outgoings at all except clothes and travel to and from work.

I could earn £60k a year, live in a 6 bed house in the centre of London and pay £30k a year on my mortgage, have a personal loan costing £6k a year and car repayments costing £6k a year. Other bills, insurances etc another £6k a year.

I could deposit £15k into a casino over a year. A wage slip would show the 60k a year would be able to afford that better than a 30k one, but in reality it's the other way round.

A casino shouldn't be the one to delve deeper into things.

Exactly, and thats why its all unnecessary bollocks.
 

colinsunderland

On a Break
Joined
Jan 28, 2016
Location
uk
If you provide payslip for 60k and play 100/month, there most probably are no further questions.
No, I know, and thats why the system fails.
In my example above there would be £12k a year left over, take off say half for food, clothes and entertainment, leaves say £6k, £500 a month.
I could deposit £100 a month at 10 casinos, can't afford that. But working from a payslip no casino would ever know.

If they are serious about this, there should be a central agency to deal with SoW checks, it set a limit, have a database like gamstop, all casinos send details of deposits and withdrawals, and the agency send a yes/no response as to if someone can deposit. Otherwise its useless, and we get situations like Casumo who make things nigh on impossible for people to comply.

So, say the agency set an affordability amount of £5k a year. Someone deposits £3k over 10 casinos in 6 months, they only have £2k left. However, if they win £8k, thats added back and the limit is then £10k they can deposit. The advantage for players is that they only have to do it once, and you don't get dodgy casinos refusing withdrawals as you can't supply a bank statement and passport from someone you sold something to on ebay 18 months ago. The advantage for casinos is that they don't have all the extra work, and angry customers.

Thats the only effective way I can see SoW being carried out properly.
 

Slottery

Meister Member
PABnoaccred
MM
Joined
Aug 21, 2017
Location
Malta
That would fail also as people spend money on other things than gambling as well. Maybe some centralized organization that would monitor all people finances in real time could work. Could be experience to be stopped to by something when computer says no in store and remind that you only have ££ left in your monthly disposable income.
 

shadow123

Ueber Meister
MM
Joined
Mar 19, 2008
Location
midlands
They really need to factor loss/profit into affordability assesments,thats all that matters really matters
At Mecca In 3 months I have deposited 30k (which is probably why I spend most of my time locked out of the account) but have made over 35k in with withdrawals.There is no way I would have lost more than 5k in that time,I would have done an extended take a break or closed the account.Only the profit allows me to sustain the level of deposits I am making.They have all the evidence of my activities on their own system without having to ask me to provide it.
 

dealer wins

Meister Member
Joined
Oct 25, 2006
Location
London the sh$thole
Or how about revert back to personal responsibility and make the experience of using a casino enjoyable again.

There are plenty of tools for anyone who wants to self exclude, get help or cut down etc
 

Sasukdcf

Full Member
PABnorogue
Joined
Jan 3, 2015
Location
Norwich
Just to honour my word and conclude this very long thread..... which has had its ups and downs ( I’m not referring to the fisting !!!)

all monies were received within 12 hours of being verified including the extra withdrawals I made afterwards, so thank you to Jan again for any input he had in this and for letting me rant at times ( which I am aware I did, however it’s frustrating for all parties)

he did also give me a generous “ consideration “ it’s not clear if this was for the time taken to get all the required info across or not he hasn’t said however the sentiment was appreciated especially as I had given him a hard time... sadly they appear to have blocked me depositing since all this, I’ve tried to find out why via chat but they have just said site issue which I find weird, but I will leave them to sort that out, I said I would play if I felt something was done regarding my time etc... something was done so I’ll keep my word if they want me as a client... but that’s a side issue... importantly I was more wanting to get across thatonce it was resolved they were fast to pay out and in fact quicker than advertised!
 

L&L-Jan

Affiliate Manager for Accredited Casinos
Joined
Jun 15, 2013
Location
Malta
Ow no.. haha, I put in that restriction when you were undergoing verification :)

I'll sort that now, forgot about it. Sorry!

Kr. Jan
 

Luckyscouser45

Head honcho
MM
Joined
Aug 13, 2018
Location
No mans land
Having got sow from yeti for all l&l brands I was going to comply but I’ve decided not to, I’ve played at L&L sites for a couple of years, Not a massive depositor and only what I can afford to lose. Not comfortable sending documents to Malta via emails etc. Also played at PP and bet365 for many years and deposited more there and never ever been sowed. Just glad I don’t have withdrawl pending I can just call it a day on the L&L sites. I do think they should use sow only when there’s risky behaviour or very high bets and frequently. Don’t like the whole being made to feel like I’m dodgy with my average deposits and 9-5 job :-/ it is a sad day Cos I loved the sites but I’m not jumping through hoops with sensitive documents which is what I’ve seen on this thread
 

Slottery

Meister Member
PABnoaccred
MM
Joined
Aug 21, 2017
Location
Malta
There's also chance that you get it done quite easily if there are no risk aspects in your documents you provide in first and these have everything without making any new questions, but that probably never is guaranteed.

That risk behaviour only is made quite nono, if you would use some non legit cash to fund your gambling (laundering it or just playing with it or what ever non legit things), you would probably spend some time to research "how not to trigger anything suspicious" and make all transaction look sweet and clean as possible, therefore there is bit demand to get these completed for most of players at some point when playing big longer time in same place and total threshold is growing (which then could potentially all be some non kosher funds) which need to be also considered risk of some level.

Many can get these passed easily with one set of documents provided, others ending up to send more and more and some get it to mission impossible stage and don't just bother to find proof for some deposits years ago which don't feel really reasonable requests anymore.
 
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