Casino Complaint All British Casino - Deposit Witheld

shereelim13

Dormant account
Joined
Mar 21, 2016
Location
UK
I've posted my message to RyanABC, the rep for All British Casino below, followed by his response. I would like to hear the views of the casinomeister membership here. From my point of view All British Casino have a win-win situation here as I was betting more than £5. If I lost all my money, they would have kept my deposit. If I won, they voided my winnings and kept my deposit too. You can see why these terms and conditions are so profitable for the casino. I have never withdrawn from All British Casino despite depositing over £1,000, and to add insult to injury, the VIP Manager personally congratulated me on my win. It was not until AFTER I had spent time sending in my documents that my deposit and winnings were removed. I think the order of the account checks could be improved here.

I'm not challenging the voiding of my winnings. I understand I bet over the limit, but I do object to them keeping my deposit too. Their terms and conditions do not state that your cash balance is used first, when playing at the casino you only have a single balance that consists of your deposit and bonus. The terms and conditions do not state your cash can be withdrawn anytime, so I can't see how they can try and use that excuse of cash vs bonus.

Hi Ryan,

I have an account at All British Casino. My username is xxxxxx. I have an ongoing complaint, and your support team have made their position final. I have therefore been forced to look elsewhere on the internet for help and found the casinomeister forum where you are a member.

I recently deposited for a bonus you sent via email. I managed to complete the wager requirement for the bonus, but I broke your bet limit as it has recently been reduced from 10% of bonus to a fixed £5. I understand you have to void my winnings but I do not think it is right that you have kept my deposit as well.

Support have quoted the following "Clause 21" term to me: "When receiving a bonus the maximum allowed bet is £5 per spin until the wagering requirements have been met. In the event that bets of larger amounts have been made All British Casino reserves the right to forfeit the bonus and any winnings."

This term makes no reference to my deposit.

On top of this, I am a UK registered customer, and you are a UK regulated casino, bound by UK Law. In UK law, if you rescind a contract, then we are supposed to be restored to the positions we were in as if the contract was never made - that is, just before the point I received the bonus. This would leave my deposit in my account.

To resolve this complaint I would like you reinstate my deposit to my account.

Thanks
Sheree
 
Last edited by a moderator:

vinylweatherman

You type well loads
Joined
Oct 14, 2004
Location
United Kingdom
The rep is wrong. Deposit MUST be refunded. This is a case of "voiding all bets", not a case of the casino being allowed to void the bets selectively so that it comes out on top. You should either PAB, or being a UK player take this to their ADR, and in the last resort, take them to the small claims court for the return of your deposit on the grounds that they voided play due to the £5 rule.

Remember, UK law requires that the consumer is "treated fairly", and this selective voiding of bets when made from bonus funds whilst accepting the equally invalid bets when they came from cash funds is a pretty clear case of "the consumer being treated unfairly".

This is another casino that has forgotten that things are VERY different for UK players than in the old days. They should also remember that even in the old days it was pretty rare for DEPOSITS to be confiscated under these circumstances, and most casinos that operated such a policy were classed as "not recommended" here.
 

L&L-Jan

Affiliate Manager for Accredited Casinos
Joined
Jun 15, 2013
Location
Malta
Dear Shereelim,

At this moment Ryan is on Holiday and therefore he is not able to answer quickly, if you don't mind I would like to give you an answer on the complaint above:

Basically the player in this example has depleted all of their real funds before moving into the bonus funds. The player when playing through the bonus funds has broken the terms and conditions. At this point the player had already lost their deposit, and then had their bonus and winnings fortified.

In the case that the player had won with their own money before moving into bonus funds. The player would have the option to forfeit the bonus and withdraw winnings, without being tied to wagering requirements or bonus restriction (e.g. max bet of £5). We would have honoured the withdrawal request and processed the withdrawal accordingly.

Furthermore I would like to repsond to the following comments:
"Their terms and conditions do not state that cash balance is used first"
In fact this is mentioned in the intro text about the wagering requirements on the bonus page at All British Caisno.

"When playing at the casino you only have a single balance that consists of your deposit and bonus"
This is partly true. When a player is playing a game there is one balance available. Nevertheless if a player would visit the homepage the balance information presented is devided by cash and bonus funds.

"Terms and conditions do not state your cash can be withdrawn anytime"
Term six of the bonus terms state that if a player would visit the withdraw page or live casino page with bonus funds activated the bonus will be forfeit and that funds that have been won with your own money are still available.

I hope this has answered all your questions?

Kind regards,

Jan
 

lockinlove

Staring into the sun
PABaccred
PABnonaccred
Joined
Jan 17, 2014
Location
Canada
Dear Shereelim,

At this moment Ryan is on Holiday and therefore he is not able to answer quickly, if you don't mind I would like to give you an answer on the complaint above:

Basically the player in this example has depleted all of their real funds before moving into the bonus funds. The player when playing through the bonus funds has broken the terms and conditions. At this point the player had already lost their deposit, and then had their bonus and winnings fortified.

In the case that the player had won with their own money before moving into bonus funds. The player would have the option to forfeit the bonus and withdraw winnings, without being tied to wagering requirements or bonus restriction (e.g. max bet of £5). We would have honoured the withdrawal request and processed the withdrawal accordingly.

Furthermore I would like to repsond to the following comments:
"Their terms and conditions do not state that cash balance is used first"
In fact this is mentioned in the intro text about the wagering requirements on the bonus page at All British Caisno.

"When playing at the casino you only have a single balance that consists of your deposit and bonus"
This is partly true. When a player is playing a game there is one balance available. Nevertheless if a player would visit the homepage the balance information presented is devided by cash and bonus funds.

"Terms and conditions do not state your cash can be withdrawn anytime"
Term six of the bonus terms state that if a player would visit the withdraw page or live casino page with bonus funds activated the bonus will be forfeit and that funds that have been won with your own money are still available.

I hope this has answered all your questions?

Kind regards,

Jan

It would have been nice if Ryan stated this in the other thread when pressed on it? Explaining something like this goes a long way. Instead he just said he responded through PM. Would save alot of hassle if responded in public when asked in public so everyone knows theres a little more to the story then being told.
 

dunover

Unofficial T&C's Editor
Staff member
webmeister
PABnonaccred
PABnononaccred
CAG
mm3
Joined
May 22, 2012
Location
the bus shelter, opposite GCHQ Benhall
The devil is in the detail here!

Right - IF (like say at Bet-at) you can forfeit the bonus as long as you haven't touched it because you won on your cash balance (played first) then no foul. This means that although the bottom-loaded bonus is displayed in one single amount along with your deposit, it can have separate rules.

BUT - if the conditions of the BONUS balance are also applicable to the deposit amount which earned the bonus, or the terms have no specification that this is NOT the case, then the player has a valid grievance.

Yes he should have checked the terms and stopped play once he over-bet and contacted CS, but his basis for complaint is lack of clarity. It's asking for aggro giving a player say a 100% bonus on 50 quid and then expecting them to bet anyhow on the first 50 quid and then bet to rules on the bottom (bonus) 50 quid.

What if the player is on 52.50 playing on £6 bets then spins again using £2.50 of real cash and £3.50 of bonus funds? Like I said it's asking for aggro. This is why I am a bit dubious that you'd have (paraphrasing) "happily paid him had he made those big bets on his cash amount, then forfeited his bonus and withdrawn".....

Logic decrees, as Vinyl infers, that regardless of bonus/cash being counted separately the same criteria should apply to BOTH for purposes of clarity and fairness to player and casino.
 

shereelim13

Dormant account
Joined
Mar 21, 2016
Location
UK

shereelim13

Dormant account
Joined
Mar 21, 2016
Location
UK
Hi Jan, Are you also a representative of All British Casino?

Furthermore I would like to repsond to the following comments:
"Their terms and conditions do not state that cash balance is used first"
In fact this is mentioned in the intro text about the wagering requirements on the bonus page at All British Caisno.

I think you have answered your own question there. It is not in the terms and conditions, it is listed on another part of the page.

"When playing at the casino you only have a single balance that consists of your deposit and bonus"
This is partly true. When a player is playing a game there is one balance available. Nevertheless if a player would visit the homepage the balance information presented is devided by cash and bonus funds.
I'm not sure what I am meant to do here, close the slot machine after every spin and go back to the homepage? Why display the two amounts lumped together when playing?

"Terms and conditions do not state your cash can be withdrawn anytime"
Term six of the bonus terms state that if a player would visit the withdraw page or live casino page with bonus funds activated the bonus will be forfeit and that funds that have been won with your own money are still available.
As I had a bonus on my account (bonus activated), this term implies my winnings would be forfeit. I can't see where this clear distinction between deposit and bonus comes from, and it certainly is not explained in your terms.

Furthermore, term 20 states:
When receiving a bonus the maximum allowed bet is £5 per spin until the wagering requirements have been met. In the event that bets of larger amounts have been made All British Casino reserves the right to forfeit the bonus and any winnings.
I received a bonus, this term states the max bet is £5 until wager requirements have been met. There is no distinction between my deposit and bonus funds, they are both tied to this term. Which makes me wonder about the other comments from Jan:
In the case that the player had won with their own money before moving into bonus funds. ... We would have honoured the withdrawal request and processed the withdrawal accordingly.

It seems what is written in the terms, is not the same as how All British Casino want the promotion to work. Unfortunately I am not a mind-reader, but I think the terms could be made clearer.
 

vinylweatherman

You type well loads
Joined
Oct 14, 2004
Location
United Kingdom
Dear Shereelim,

At this moment Ryan is on Holiday and therefore he is not able to answer quickly, if you don't mind I would like to give you an answer on the complaint above:

Basically the player in this example has depleted all of their real funds before moving into the bonus funds. The player when playing through the bonus funds has broken the terms and conditions. At this point the player had already lost their deposit, and then had their bonus and winnings fortified.

In the case that the player had won with their own money before moving into bonus funds. The player would have the option to forfeit the bonus and withdraw winnings, without being tied to wagering requirements or bonus restriction (e.g. max bet of £5). We would have honoured the withdrawal request and processed the withdrawal accordingly.

Furthermore I would like to repsond to the following comments:
"Their terms and conditions do not state that cash balance is used first"
In fact this is mentioned in the intro text about the wagering requirements on the bonus page at All British Caisno.

"When playing at the casino you only have a single balance that consists of your deposit and bonus"
This is partly true. When a player is playing a game there is one balance available. Nevertheless if a player would visit the homepage the balance information presented is devided by cash and bonus funds.

"Terms and conditions do not state your cash can be withdrawn anytime"
Term six of the bonus terms state that if a player would visit the withdraw page or live casino page with bonus funds activated the bonus will be forfeit and that funds that have been won with your own money are still available.

I hope this has answered all your questions?

Kind regards,

Jan

This situation is also quite likely, but it's not something that will stand out because the player will get paid in any case. It's also an unusual system whereby cash and bonus is all lumped together, but whilst using their cash balance players are able to bet freely, as high as they like, and on whatever games they like; but as soon as they run into the bonus balance they suddenly have to change tack and start playing to a strict set of bonus rules. This is not how players play, many will "overshoot" when betting and losing, running into the bonus balance without realising it. Most will bust out, but a few will get lucky and win, and this will generate bad PR for the casino because not only are the winnings voided, the deposit is voided too, which is highly unusual.

I am having trouble buying into this explanation and justification, and I fear a judge would be similarly minded if it came to it. The ADR may well buy it, but this is not the last stop for a player, they can still take the matter to court where an ADR rules in favour of the casino.

It would be better NOT to mix the two amounts, and have the player use their deposit first without any restrictions. When they bust out of their deposit, the player has to leave what they are doing and re-engage with the main page in order to release their "insurance", the bonus balance. They then re-enter the casino to play with this, being reminded as they do that they are now playing to a set of rules and restrictions. This clear demarcation will also make it clear to the player that they have exhausted their deposit and are now using an "insurance" type promotion in order to try to win it back. A judge probably WILL buy into this as "consumer being treated fairly", and an ADR should have no trouble agreeing with the casino.

As for the terms and conditions, the consumer protection laws also cover these, and also how they are presented. Having them "scattered about the site" isn't going to impress the court when dealing with a case of unfair terms and conditions, and any that are found to be "hidden", unclear, ambiguous, too one sided, etc can be struck out as though they didn't exist, and the contract evaluated according to the remaining terms.

Under the consumer protection laws in the UK, it's entirely possible for a consumer to still win despite clearly having broken the terms and conditions. This would happen, and has happened, when the terms themselves have fallen foul of consumer protection laws. Many companies recently have been rewriting their terms and conditions on a regular basis, much of this has been down to a worry that their terms will fall foul of these laws and it will open up another of those reclaim bonanzas like PPI.
 

L&L-Jan

Affiliate Manager for Accredited Casinos
Joined
Jun 15, 2013
Location
Malta
Hi Jan, Are you also a representative of All British Casino?

I think you have answered your own question there. It is not in the terms and conditions, it is listed on another part of the page.

I'm not sure what I am meant to do here, close the slot machine after every spin and go back to the homepage? Why display the two amounts lumped together when playing?

As I had a bonus on my account (bonus activated), this term implies my winnings would be forfeit. I can't see where this clear distinction between deposit and bonus comes from, and it certainly is not explained in your terms.

Furthermore, term 20 states:
I received a bonus, this term states the max bet is £5 until wager requirements have been met. There is no distinction between my deposit and bonus funds, they are both tied to this term. Which makes me wonder about the other comments from Jan:


It seems what is written in the terms, is not the same as how All British Casino want the promotion to work. Unfortunately I am not a mind-reader, but I think the terms could be made clearer.

Dear Shereelim,

I'm a representative for L&L Europe Ltd and All British Casino belongs to the L&L Group. For All British Casino specific Ryan is our number one guy.
As I've mentioned he is on Holiday and I don't want this complaint to be unanswered for a day or two.

Regarding your comments:

It is correct that all our bonus terms are available on the bonus page. However, our terms and conditions state that the bonus terms are available on the bonus page plus we provide a link to the bonus so that everything can be read accordingly. In general these terms apply to all our promotional offers.

In order to keep track on the progress of your wagering requirements or to follow the development of your cash balance and/or bonus balance it would be possible to open our casino in a new tab and visit the homepage where this information is visible. To be honest I'm not aware of a game provider where in game two balances are displayed, bonus balance and cash balance. Towards our games we send your available balance which includes bonus money and cash money, therefore you have one balance in game.

I understand your feedback regarding the distinction between cash funds and bonus funds and I appreciate your feedback regarding our bonus terms. We are currently building our new website which should go live soon I shall definitely take in consideration to make our bonus terms more clear and understandable.

I hope my response answered your comments and questions?

Kind regards,

Jan
 

SpinUk

Meister Member
PABnonaccred
MM
Joined
Oct 10, 2012
Location
London
This situation is also quite likely, but it's not something that will stand out because the player will get paid in any case. It's also an unusual system whereby cash and bonus is all lumped together, but whilst using their cash balance players are able to bet freely, as high as they like, and on whatever games they like; but as soon as they run into the bonus balance they suddenly have to change tack and start playing to a strict set of bonus rules. This is not how players play, many will "overshoot" when betting and losing, running into the bonus balance without realising it. Most will bust out, but a few will get lucky and win, and this will generate bad PR for the casino because not only are the winnings voided, the deposit is voided too, which is highly unusual.

I am having trouble buying into this explanation and justification, and I fear a judge would be similarly minded if it came to it. The ADR may well buy it, but this is not the last stop for a player, they can still take the matter to court where an ADR rules in favour of the casino.

It would be better NOT to mix the two amounts, and have the player use their deposit first without any restrictions. When they bust out of their deposit, the player has to leave what they are doing and re-engage with the main page in order to release their "insurance", the bonus balance. They then re-enter the casino to play with this, being reminded as they do that they are now playing to a set of rules and restrictions. This clear demarcation will also make it clear to the player that they have exhausted their deposit and are now using an "insurance" type promotion in order to try to win it back. A judge probably WILL buy into this as "consumer being treated fairly", and an ADR should have no trouble agreeing with the casino.

As for the terms and conditions, the consumer protection laws also cover these, and also how they are presented. Having them "scattered about the site" isn't going to impress the court when dealing with a case of unfair terms and conditions, and any that are found to be "hidden", unclear, ambiguous, too one sided, etc can be struck out as though they didn't exist, and the contract evaluated according to the remaining terms.

Under the consumer protection laws in the UK, it's entirely possible for a consumer to still win despite clearly having broken the terms and conditions. This would happen, and has happened, when the terms themselves have fallen foul of consumer protection laws. Many companies recently have been rewriting their terms and conditions on a regular basis, much of this has been down to a worry that their terms will fall foul of these laws and it will open up another of those reclaim bonanzas like PPI.

^This. Small claims court is only about £50, can be done online and you represent yourself.
 

shereelim13

Dormant account
Joined
Mar 21, 2016
Location
UK
I understand your feedback regarding the distinction between cash funds and bonus funds and I appreciate your feedback regarding our bonus terms. We are currently building our new website which should go live soon I shall definitely take in consideration to make our bonus terms more clear and understandable.

Good to hear you are taking on some feedback from this situation, and acknowledging the issues with your terms. Will you be returning my deposit now?
 

L&L-Jan

Affiliate Manager for Accredited Casinos
Joined
Jun 15, 2013
Location
Malta
Good to hear you are taking on some feedback from this situation, and acknowledging the issues with your terms. Will you be returning my deposit now?

The current set up of the site is still adequate for displaying the correct information to all players.

We have taken your feedback as we do from all players, and will improve our service further. Given all of the previously mentioned and outlined reasons we will not be in a position to refund your deposit. Namely being that your deposit has been lost prior to you winning with your bonus funds. Since you have won with bonus funds and breached the bonus terms and conditions your winnings are voided.

Please be informed that if you are not satisfied with our decision the procedure is to file an official complaint as previously advised by our support team, where you can make a reference to this topic. If the complaint is not handled to your satisfaction the next step is to submit a complaint to one of our ADR's (E-cogra or the Pogg) and finally small claims court.

Kind regards,

Jan
 

vinylweatherman

You type well loads
Joined
Oct 14, 2004
Location
United Kingdom
The casino is clearly willing to defend this all the way to court. This could prove to be an interesting case as their defence is based on a non standard construct within the industry in that you can lose by playing a certain way, but you cannot win back your losses through identical playing strategy.

Whilst the deposit was initially lost, it was then won back again, so the deposit HAS actually been confiscated on the grounds of breaching the terms of play, rather than it having been lost to the casino via gameplay.

It is this construct that would need to be challenged as being "unfair" under consumer protection laws, as the defence that the deposit was initially lost and was not won back rests on this two tier set of rules applying during the same gaming session or "contract".

The claim that it is fair because you would have been paid had you won much sooner despite betting over £5 due to the ability to forfeit the bonus is hypothetical, it hasn't been tested in this case, nor has it been proven to be what actually happens when players bet over £5 and win without dipping into the bonus, and then request the option of withdrawal with the bonus forfeit.

Despite any misgivings, you would have to go via the formal ADR route before taking court action as the courts like to see that the claimant has made every effort to come to a settlement before resorting to the courts. Skip this step, and there is every chance that the court will direct that the matter first be placed before the ADR before it will agree to rule on the case.

You already have a clear "deadlock" situation with the casino as they have repeatedly stood their ground with the argument that the deposit was lost because it is deemed to have been played first, and that the bonus balance is governed by a different set of rules that means that although the deposit was won back, this doesn't count.

Now, there is a danger for the casino that if the court finds that this business model in itself is "unfair", it may actually have to pay the winnings, not merely refund the deposit.
 

shereelim13

Dormant account
Joined
Mar 21, 2016
Location
UK
Hi Jan,

Do you have a UK address I can sent papers to?

Just a quick update on this. I did not receive a reply from Jan to my question above, and from my research I don't think "All British" Casino has any offices or operations in Great Britain :confused: . So much for being "All British"...

Their terms are governed in Malta (strangely not UK for a UK Licensed Casino) so it looks like the small claims court is not an option here.
Proper Law and Jurisdiction
1. The player submits exclusively to the law of the main place of operation of L&L Europe Ltd.
2. The player hereby agrees that any disputes which may arise between the player and L&L Europe Ltd and is not conclusively resolved by reference to eCOGRA shall be submitted exclusively to the courts and tribunals of Malta.

I'm still assessing my options, and thanks for the support from all the members here so far, has given me confidence that I am in the right.
 

Jono777

Ueber Meister
CAG
mm1
mm4
Joined
May 13, 2014
Location
Wolverhampton
The 'All British' part is with reference to where this particular casino and its operations are aimed towards, IE UK Players, place of consumption rather than place of supply!

Jan is always responsive to PM's, although sometimes the odd 'nudge' if required can do no harm, lets remember these guys get very busy and don't just exist to service CasioMeister and its members.

Send her a polite reminder PM

Best of luck :thumbsup:
 

fun4all

Senior Member
Joined
Jul 29, 2014
Location
.
Their terms are governed in Malta (strangely not UK for a UK Licensed Casino) so it looks like the small claims court is not an option here.

It is most definitely an option do not worry. You are in the UK and under the new regulations everything you and the casino do now falls under UK law. They don't have to have a UK address but it is irrelevant. Send a letter (international tracked and signed) to whatever address you can find saying they have 7 days to return your deposit or you will pursue through the small claims court in the UK. If they don't pay up then please do follow through with your thread. Google money saving expert small claims guide.

You will win I am sure, please keep us updated.

You could do an ADR first. In this case it will guarantee to cost them money so they might just give it up first. Good luck, I feel you are completely in the right here regarding your deposit.

EDIT : Also regarding the terms you quoted do not worry, despite what they are trying to do there they cannot change UK law. Their relationship with you falls entirely in the UK under the jurisdiction of the UK. They cannot change that.
 
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