AGCC suspends Full Tilt's licenses

[vinylweatherman]

Now, with their silence treatment, where the whole staff is prohibited from communicating any information to players, pros, creditors or in fact anyone at all from outside the company, regularly reminding their staff of the confidentiality clause in their contracts - it's the way it rolls, each opportunity, another threat to make sure they don’t forget who they are dealing with - it’s getting worse and worse every hour, the company is in crisis and the staff are threatened that if the look to get alternative employment in the industry they have developed with the secure the families future they will be sue for all they have.

I would love to read that confidentiality clause. Other then the threats from an employer of losing your job or being sued for breach of contract, threats to employees "making sure they don't forget who they are dealing with", makes one wonder who in fact they actually are dealing with. Sounds like a mafia boss telling employees they could end up sleeping with the fishes.

They should check for "whistleblower" laws. These have been introduced in some countries in order to allow staff to report illegal activities without having to worry about being "kneecapped" by their employers through the courts. These laws would NOT apply however to leaking legal, but commercially sensitive, information.

This is an INTERNET company (thus jurisdictional issues are much more complex), so it could be easier for ex-employees to take "revenge" once they have lost their jobs, and can no longer be threatened with the "sack" for speaking out of turn. Employees can also counter-sue, and in some cases the employer will back down because the information they wanted to hide will end up being repeated in court, where it will become a matter of public record, rather than the rantings of a disgruntled ex-employee.

I doubt the USA would extradite an employee who goes to the DoJ to "spill the beans".

 

[jetset]

Neither link now works. Have 2+2 silenced this former employee

I've just tried the link again myself and it worked fine?

 

[vinylweatherman]

I've just tried the link again myself and it worked fine?

Working now, although they point to a locked thread, with the discussion having been moved to a new one headed by a summary. It seems the thread just got so large, and the new one already has over 100 pages. Maybe linking to "single post" rather than the thread is what causes problems when trying to click through.

If true, the allegations make Alderney look even WORSE, since all this went on for YEARS, right under their noses. Rather than winding the company up, they allowed these SAME people to simply pay the outstanding license fees, money they DIDN'T have from company funds, but had to take from an already underfunded pool of money that belings to players. Thus, Alderney got 100% of their money, with other creditors likely to end up with little or nothing. Alderney should have put PLAYERS first, and NOT taken money from the old company UNTIL a deal had been made that got players paid. They could simply have promosed that new investors could start with a "clean sheet" so long as players got paid, with Alderney writing off the unpaid fees or pursuing the original owners for them. Alderney would have ended up with MORE money, since the new investor would presumably pay for their own license, and would have the money to do so.

The management should face CRIMINAL charges, since it looks like they knowingly siphoned money and benefits from a company that was already unable to meet it's liabilities to players. The board and owners STILL dined on lobster even when they KNEW the company was on it's knees and were making such drastic cutbacks that staff were leaving through lack of confidence and low moral.

Alderney should send in a team of auditors to look for evidence of misappropriation of funds, and arrest those in charge who presided over all of this. There is already enough evidence to prove that players' funds were misused to fund company activity, and a further offence of "knowingly trading whilst insolvent" may well be supported by evidence brought to light from an audit of the accounts. A criminal investigation would also neuter attempts by the owners to bully employees to keep quiet about what they know.

 

[4 of a kind]

It's sad when issues like this are brought out of the closet. Ultimately the innocent players losing their money are the ones that are impacted the most.

Yet, on the positive side its these same issues once enough of them have been accumulated, that will force strict regulations and enforcement to be put in place, not only to protect the players, but to protect the operators from themselves. Greed when compared to a compulsive gambler share many of the same traits.

 

[threescatters]

And total amounts frozen for FTP is 160m dollars if anyones interested.

This is not true. It is what FTP wants everyone to believe but the way they worded it gives it away.

What they said was the total amount seized up to and including blackfriday FOR THE TWO YEARS PREVIOUS was $150m. They had numerous other (reasonably public) seizures the past few years which has been included in this total. Therefore the amount actually frozen on black friday is way way less than that. FTP were trying to pass the buck onto the DOJ there when they did NOT have anywhere near all the players money pre black friday anyway.

 

[Tengil]

This is not true. It is what FTP wants everyone to believe but the way they worded it gives it away.

What they said was the total amount seized up to and including blackfriday FOR THE TWO YEARS PREVIOUS was $150m. They had numerous other (reasonably public) seizures the past few years which has been included in this total. Therefore the amount actually frozen on black friday is way way less than that. FTP were trying to pass the buck onto the DOJ there when they did NOT have anywhere near all the players money pre black friday anyway.

The 160M was not taken from their statement. Frozen and/or not accessible by FTP, some banks froze account voluntarily that werent included in the DOJ "list".

And they didnt say that the 115M included amounts frozen on Black Friday, they said "two years preceding Black Friday". Its only what Noah thinks (and he doesnt know how much was frozen) which should be taken as official.
And they only mentioned US bank accounts and that includes mostly processor funds AFAIK. They had way more non-US than US accounts frozen on BF.

So it may be true or it maybe false but one shouldnt have a guy whose ego has blown trough the roof as the only source.

 

[threescatters]

The 160M was not taken from their statement. Frozen and/or not accessible by FTP, some banks froze account voluntarily that werent included in the DOJ "list".

And they didnt say that the 115M included amounts frozen on Black Friday, they said "two years preceding Black Friday". Its only what Noah thinks (and he doesnt know how much was frozen) which should be taken as official.
And they only mentioned US bank accounts and that includes mostly processor funds AFAIK. They had way more non-US than US accounts frozen on BF.

So it may be true or it maybe false but one shouldnt have a guy whose ego has blown trough the roof as the only source.

Hi Spiderlegz,

1) The bank account that was frozen voluntarily by the bank itself was a single bank account at Bank of Ireland. You are right they froze this without the DOJ asking as a snap safety measure. This has now however been reopened apparently.

2) Yeah you are right the statement says "two years preceding black friday". It is deliberately vague about how much was actually frozen because of black friday itself. You can be sure that they did not have enough to cover player funds before that day anyway and this is the crux of the argument I was trying to make. I am sick of the "DOJ has player funds" crap FTP lovers are trying to get away with. Wrong, they do not have anywhere near the amounts player funds should add up and it was FTP that spent/gave to owners/mismanaged the player fund balances.

Thanks for posting on this spider, I didnt realise more non us funds than us funds were frozen? Can you elaborate on this anymore?

 

[Tengil]

Hi Spiderlegz,

1) The bank account that was frozen voluntarily by the bank itself was a single bank account at Bank of Ireland. You are right they froze this without the DOJ asking as a snap safety measure. This has now however been reopened apparently.

2) Yeah you are right the statement says "two years preceding black friday". It is deliberately vague about how much was actually frozen because of black friday itself. You can be sure that they did not have enough to cover player funds before that day anyway and this is the crux of the argument I was trying to make. I am sick of the "DOJ has player funds" crap FTP lovers are trying to get away with. Wrong, they do not have anywhere near the amounts player funds should add up and it was FTP that spent/gave to owners/mismanaged the player fund balances.

Thanks for posting on this spider, I didnt realise more non us funds than us funds were frozen? Can you elaborate on this anymore?

The point 1 is assuming that there were only 1 account in Europe that was voluntarily frozen. I doubt that.

Point 2 I mostly agree. Im more inclined to think that the main problem is the deposits shortfall of (according to Noah who took it from the Todd Terry et al’s class action lawsuit) 128M of which only 9M is recoverable. Add poor management and even worse accounting and "its problem".

Again AGCC apparently didnt see any problem in this if they even knew or cared. Guess being the biggest licensee gives you some perks.

Doubt that there are really any FTP fanboys (most probably just software fans) out there anymore, some just seem to be overoptimistic. They had by far the best software tough (IMO) and Rush but some former employee said that half of the developement team has left which further lowers the value of FTP.

About US and non-US funds. FTP was operating in Ireland and had their servers at Guernsey so its quite reasonable to assume that they had way more funds in their European accounts. The list of the bank accounts (

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) in the DOJ indictment also further strengthens that view. Of course one cant know 100% sure but there is no logical reason to believe otherwise.

If you want some really laughable comments check what KGC has stated about Cereus... They dont even need to do the spin themself as KGC does the job for them.

 

[threescatters]

Hi again spiderlegz,

Well actually I think its very unlikely there was more than 1 bank account frozen voluntarily. That one that was snap frozen and later reopened was so widely reported and focused on I believe we would have heard of any others, and we never have.

Then again neither of us know for sure so we are both just speculating. Certainly any voluntarily frozen ones will have been reopened by now anyway as FTP got the DOJ to confirm to BOI that that account was ok, which they duly did.

On the second thing you mention of course the shortfall in non collected deposits does not help matters. The widely reported number is $60m but again we dont know for sure, it could even be more. I dont believe even if you had handed 60million to FTP as cash on the 10th april before blackfriday they would have had every cent of every players balance. They wouldnt even have been close. Looking at the figures mentioned by people in the know (not noah, I agree with your assessment of him) it certainly seems that way. NO MATTER WHAT it is FTP that put players money at risk, and they deserve all the blame simply for that.

I completely agree with you about the software. It was online poker at its best. I am not so sure they fully owned rush poker. From what I remember it was a group of programmers created that and tried to sell it to stars first who turned it down. Dont quote me on that though. If FTP do own the complete rights and patent to that then its their biggest asset.

Finally, totally agree about KGC. Just a joke.

Thanks for posting on this spiderlegz, I dont like to post on 2+2 much but I appreciate you posting about it here.

 

[Tengil]

Hi again spiderlegz,

Well actually I think its very unlikely there was more than 1 bank account frozen voluntarily. That one that was snap frozen and later reopened was so widely reported and focused on I believe we would have heard of any others, and we never have.

Then again neither of us know for sure so we are both just speculating. Certainly any voluntarily frozen ones will have been reopened by now anyway as FTP got the DOJ to confirm to BOI that that account was ok, which they duly did.

On the second thing you mention of course the shortfall in non collected deposits does not help matters. The widely reported number is $60m but again we dont know for sure, it could even be more. I dont believe even if you had handed 60million to FTP as cash on the 10th april before blackfriday they would have had every cent of every players balance. They wouldnt even have been close. Looking at the figures mentioned by people in the know (not noah, I agree with your assessment of him) it certainly seems that way. NO MATTER WHAT it is FTP that put players money at risk, and they deserve all the blame simply for that.

I completely agree with you about the software. It was online poker at its best. I am not so sure they fully owned rush poker. From what I remember it was a group of programmers created that and tried to sell it to stars first who turned it down. Dont quote me on that though. If FTP do own the complete rights and patent to that then its their biggest asset.

Finally, totally agree about KGC. Just a joke.

Thanks for posting on this spiderlegz, I dont like to post on 2+2 much but I appreciate you posting about it here.

There could have been other bank accounts frozen that werent in the DOJ list. Reasons why it wouldnt have been reported is that sums were small or FTP didnt want anyone to know.

The deposit shortfall seems to be 119M (128-9)

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Seems to be true.
It was a huge gamble made by FTP that went south and players are the ones ultimately paying the price.
128M is over 80% of what is said to be owed to US players (~150M).

And yes FTP and their execs deserve all the shit that is being thrown against them.

And about the software, euro sites have so crappy software that its no surprise that basically only 888poker has gained any long-term traffic increase after BF. Players have gone back to PS. I only play on euro sites because of +60% flat RB.

 

[jetset]

Update

FULL TILT’S WOES CONTINUE WITH ANOTHER CLASS ACTION (Update)

Canadian consumer group files in Superior Court of Quebec

Beleaguered online poker group Full Tilt faces another legal obstacle with the Canadian consumer group, Groupe des droits des consommateurs, announcing today that it has filed a national class action suit against the company on behalf of players who have been unable to reclaim their money following the U.S. Department of Justice action earlier this year, dubbed as "Black Friday".

A group statement made to the Toronto Sun newspaper said: "The class action involves Full Tilt Poker's illegal freezing of clients' money that's kept in accounts available through the website www.fulltiltpoker.com."

This latest action, which has to be approved by the Canadian courts, brings to three the lawsuits filed against Full Tilt with regard to unpaid player funds. The first filed in June 2011 on behalf of U.S. Players only (Todd Terry et al.) and the second filed in August 2011 on behalf of anyone whose accounts on Full Tilt Poker have not been paid back (Plaintiffs - Zayn Jetha and Donald Whelan). Both suits were filed in the United States District Court for the Southern District of New York (see previous InfoPowa reports).

In the meantime Full Tilt will undergo the continuation of the Alderney Gambling Control Commission's deliberations on the suspension of its licence, due to be held in London on September 19.

 

[Wisenheimer]

FULL TILT’S WOES CONTINUE WITH ANOTHER CLASS ACTION (Update)

Canadian consumer group files in Superior Court of Quebec

Beleaguered online poker group Full Tilt faces another legal obstacle with the Canadian consumer group, Groupe des droits des consommateurs, announcing today that it has filed a national class action suit against the company on behalf of players who have been unable to reclaim their money following the U.S. Department of Justice action earlier this year, dubbed as "Black Friday".

A group statement made to the Toronto Sun newspaper said: "The class action involves Full Tilt Poker's illegal freezing of clients' money that's kept in accounts available through the website www.fulltiltpoker.com."

This latest action, which has to be approved by the Canadian courts, brings to three the lawsuits filed against Full Tilt with regard to unpaid player funds. The first filed in June 2011 on behalf of U.S. Players only (Todd Terry et al.) and the second filed in August 2011 on behalf of anyone whose accounts on Full Tilt Poker have not been paid back (Plaintiffs - Zayn Jetha and Donald Whelan). Both suits were filed in the United States District Court for the Southern District of New York (see previous InfoPowa reports).

In the meantime Full Tilt will undergo the continuation of the Alderney Gambling Control Commission's deliberations on the suspension of its licence, due to be held in London on September 19.

I've read that today as well. I love how some of the Canadians are making up random big digits to make a profit. The only internet poker games worth playing are rakefree anyway. Especially after this whole fiasco...you'd be surprised how much money you can save on rake.

 

[jetset]

Update

Disappointing news from AGC that the September 19th hearing will be held in camera again - supposedly in the best interests of the players The Alderney commissioners do not seem to appreciate how damaging this secrecy is to their credibility as regulators.

Even their own regulatory director, Andre Wilsenach disagrees with this procedure.

Pocket Kings, the owners of FTP, have also issued another exclusive statement detailing their predicament. It appears from this that they still have not found investors and have now engaged a company to assist them in doing so.

In the meantime they continue to struggle with substantial financial problems, and it looks like further retrenchments may be expected:


AGCC SAYS FULL TILT HEARING TO BE HELD IN PRIVATE

“Tribunal conducting a difficult balancing exercise of the interests of the various parties”

It's been an eventful day for industry observers following the ongoing Full Tilt Poker saga with the release of a Full Tilt Statement and the Alderney Gambling Control Commission announcing a private hearing on September 19 2011.

The Full Tilt Poker statement released exclusively to Poker Strategy.com reads as follows:

"On April 15th 2011 the United States Department of Justice unsealed a federal indictment against a number of individuals employed by major online poker operators. After the issuance of that indictment and a related civil case brought by the United States government, Full Tilt Poker withdrew from the US market. Then in a related action, on June 29th, 2011, Full Tilt Poker had its operating licenses suspended by the Alderney Gambling Control Commission.

“As a result, Pocket Kings Ltd. (provider of marketing and technology services to Full Tilt Poker) has adopted a cost optimization program and estimates that they need to reduce their costs by approximately €12m. This program is intended to streamline the company's operations in order to better position itself for future growth and profitability in Full Tilt Poker’s markets outside of the U.S.

“If all of the required cost savings were to be achieved through redundancies, approximately 250 positions could be affected; however the exact number cannot be confirmed until the conclusion of a consultation process with its workforce.

“Notwithstanding the foregoing, Pocket Kings firmly believes it has a very strong future in Full Tilt Poker’s Non-US Markets, and is fully committed to ensuring Full Tilt Poker restores the site and repay players in full. To this end, Full Tilt Poker has retained Sea Port Group Securities, LLC as its financial advisor with regard to raising capital and/or assisting in securing a strategic partner in order to fund continued operations of Full Tilt Poker's non-U.S. business. The Company is in active discussions with several parties and will provide a further statement in due course."

“Sea Port Group Securities, LLC is a credit focused Investment Bank founded by Michael Meagher and Stephen Smith and is described as "a firm unique in its ability to connect clients with diverse credit opportunities and create value."

“The Alderney Gambling Control Commission (AGCC) released its latest statement with regard to Full Tilt Poker's much anticipated hearing scheduled for September 19, 2011 in London. The Commission has notified interested parties that the tribunal has ruled that the hearing will not be open to the public but will commence in private "in camera", to the disappointment of the AGCC's Executive Director, André Wilsenach.

The AGCC's statement reads:

"The Commissioners of AGCC forming the tribunal dealing with the regulatory hearing into the affairs of FTP have decided that the hearing will continue on Monday 19th September 2011 but that it be held 'in camera'.

“This determination was reached following a pre-hearing application by FTP to further adjourn the hearing.

“André Wilsenach, Executive Director, stated: "I am pleased that the FTP hearing will continue as scheduled, as was argued on my behalf. However, I am disappointed with the tribunal's decision that, notwithstanding my arguments to the contrary, the hearing will be held in private. I believe the public has a right to know the reasoning behind the decisions to suspend FTP's licences and call a hearing, and to hear the evidence that will be put forward on my behalf.

“It is my understanding that the tribunal conducted a difficult balancing exercise of the interests of the various parties, taking into account the legal arguments for and against further postponing the hearing, and for and against allowing the public to attend the proceedings."

“As a consequence of the tribunal's decision members of the public will not be able to attend the hearing. A further statement will be made at the earliest possible opportunity.

“Issued by: Andre Wilsenach (Executive Director, AGCC)"

 

[vinylweatherman]

How can it be "in the interests of all parties" where ONE of these parties, the players, have been TWICE excluded from the process.

Even if they manage to survive, do they REALLY believe that non-US players will flock to join such a SECRETIVE operator when there are others available that have not gotten themselves into such a mess. If they fail to survive, and players end up not getting paid, it will be the AGC that will lose credibilty among the player community.

Eventually, the minutes of these hearings will end up in the public domain, and judgement will be biased by the knowledge that any important facts that emerged were intended to remain hidden from the players.

 

[threescatters]

Yes the AGC is clearly a poor regulator. They failed to ensure FTP met the demands of their regulation (Keeping enough liquid cash at all times to cover player balances) and now they are holding everything in secret after claiming it would be public. The players are the ones getting shafted here whilst the AGC and FTP cover their asses. This is hugely damaging for the AGC imo. If I was another company licenced by the AGC I would be pretty pissed off atm.

 

[Tengil]

As much as AGCC is to blame they still have handled it better than KGC who still lets Cereus operate in addition to releasing some false statements.

How can it be "in the interests of all parties" where ONE of these parties, the players, have been TWICE excluded from the process.

Even if they manage to survive, do they REALLY believe that non-US players will flock to join such a SECRETIVE operator when there are others available that have not gotten themselves into such a mess. If they fail to survive, and players end up not getting paid, it will be the AGC that will lose credibilty among the player community.

Eventually, the minutes of these hearings will end up in the public domain, and judgement will be biased by the knowledge that any important facts that emerged were intended to remain hidden from the players.

You would be surprised.
The new owner/operator would have to provide serious proof that player funds are safe. Their software is easily the best and they have Rush in addition. Would probably almost instantly jump to second biggest site as the competition from others than PS is weak.
And dont forget that the majority of players dont have big rolls there and there would probably be some nice incentives for players.

But thats a huge "if".

 

[threescatters]

As much as AGCC is to blame they still have handled it better than KGC who still lets Cereus operate in addition to releasing some false statements.

Very true.

 

[vinylweatherman]

As much as AGCC is to blame they still have handled it better than KGC who still lets Cereus operate in addition to releasing some false statements.




You would be surprised.
The new owner/operator would have to provide serious proof that player funds are safe. Their software is easily the best and they have Rush in addition. Would probably almost instantly jump to second biggest site as the competition from others than PS is weak.
And dont forget that the majority of players dont have big rolls there and there would probably be some nice incentives for players.

But thats a huge "if".

This is to their advantage, but good software is no good if players don't feel their funds are safe. If the impression that "nothing has changed" emerges, the competition will see an opportunity to gain ground, perhaps by upgrading their own software to give players what they miss at FT.

If the old owners are seen to get off lightly and carry on as before, players are not going to feel as safe as they once did. It will need new ownership, new management, and a clear impression that the "old guard" who created this mess are gone for good. Players are also going to want to know what this secrecy was all about.

Given that this is dragging on so long, the competition are the ONLY outlet for players who want to play poker NOW! This is an opportunity for the competitors to impress these FT refugees so much that they never want to return to FT even when it is operating again.

 

[Tengil]

This is to their advantage, but good software is no good if players don't feel their funds are safe. If the impression that "nothing has changed" emerges, the competition will see an opportunity to gain ground, perhaps by upgrading their own software to give players what they miss at FT.

If the old owners are seen to get off lightly and carry on as before, players are not going to feel as safe as they once did. It will need new ownership, new management, and a clear impression that the "old guard" who created this mess are gone for good. Players are also going to want to know what this secrecy was all about.

Given that this is dragging on so long, the competition are the ONLY outlet for players who want to play poker NOW! This is an opportunity for the competitors to impress these FT refugees so much that they never want to return to FT even when it is operating again.

Thats why I wrote that the new operator would have to present proof that player funds are safe. The old owners and execs arent going to be involved in the new company if that scenario becomes reality.

Upgrading the software isnt done in a whimp and certainly isnt cheap, ask Betfair. The competitors havent gained much of any traffic increase other than the short spike in traffic after BF. Most have now lost it back to PS.
The "eurosites" (excluding PS) are so far behind in software and have low traffic that the only site that ever could compete with the "new" FTP (big if again) for the second spot is Party when they get the Bwin player pool (pretty much half of Ongame and the majority of the fish).

The big network (big as in amount of skins) model is not working hence why Party is the only serious competitor in the long run IMO.

 

[jetset]

Independent report on the manner in which Alderney Gaming Control Commission handled the Full Tilt Poker debacle here:

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