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Ace LIve Casino Wouldn't Pay €7000

Discussion in 'Casino Complaints - Bonus Issues' started by toutou77, Sep 6, 2013.

    Sep 6, 2013
  1. toutou77

    toutou77 Dormant account PABnononaccred

    Plaine Magnien
    Acelive Casino sent me an exclusive offer of 500 for 500 in the mail.
    They sent after I lost before in their casino and they could see exactly how I play and my play style which was all ok according to their terms and condition.
    I placed a risky bet with the 1000 I had and won big then I continued over 100 a spin all in their live roulette to complete over 40,000 in wagering and won 7000.
    The bet at the beginning was a risky bet while the wagering bets were less risky but still on 12 numbers or less over 100 per spin which is still very risky.
    It is not against their terms so they had to bring the "We reserve the right" well known bullshit.
    Again, I say I played the welcome bonus exactly the same but they still wanted me back with an exclusive offer coming from the casino manager Gordon Allan.
    These people will steal your money once you win and once you lose, avoid this deceptive operation.
    Dear S

    In relation to your membership on Ace Live Casino we have carefully studied your recent gaming activity and have determined that you are clearly not a recreational player but rather abusing our bonus offers for profit. Your wagering behavior is in violation of our Bonus Terms & Conditions, which you agreed to upon registering your account.

    Below you can find reference to the term you violated:

    11.1 All our promotions are designed for those genuine players who may be interested in continuing their membership and playing at the casino and are not averse to betting with and gambling their own money. Any and all promotion may be considered void at any moment to those persons or groups suspected of abuse or having a record of promotional abuse or fraud at Ace LiveCasino or with any of their merchant affiliates. Any winnings accrued by such persons or groups shall be considered null and void and shall be withheld.

    In summary:
    - You only deposit when there is a 100% match bonus available.
    - After depositing and receiving your bonus you wager your entire balance on 1 or 2 spins of roulette in an effort to maximize a win with bonus funds. This is very unusual bankroll management for a genuine player and is classic behavior of bonus abusers.
    - If you win your first few spins, you seek only to meet the wagering requirement at which point you request a withdrawal, profiting from the use of bonus funds.

    Since May you have deposited €1,000 via Neteller and received €1,100 in bonuses. While playing our games you have made a €5,400 profit since May by abusing our generous bonuses and at this point we are closing your account indefinitely. We will refund your €1,000 of Neteller deposits so that you remain financially neutral. All further winnings have been voided.

    I would like to say that we sincerely regret having to take this decision, which is not taken lightly but given the above transgressions we have no choice in order that we meet the compliance regulations stipulated clearly in our terms and conditions.

    We have spent an extensive amount of time reviewing your activity and this decision is final.


    John Sedgwick
    Ace Live Casino Senior Compliance Officer
  2. Sep 6, 2013
  3. dionysus

    dionysus can turn wine into water CAG MM

    I'm a Canucklehead
    I'm not privy to all details, but if the story is on the up and up, it is pretty bad - the casino has the right to disallow you any future promotions, as is their prerogative especially if you primarily take only 100% offers....but if there is no max bet rule in place, they should pay you, then go ahead and close your account or deny promotions.
    2 people like this.
  4. Sep 6, 2013
  5. dionysus

    dionysus can turn wine into water CAG MM

    I'm a Canucklehead
    well, quick look at their site, you should ask for your deposit back at least if theyre trotting out and quoting rules:

    7.5. AceLive Casino is intended for recreational players only and any players found to be abusing any rule or regulation, professional bettors, syndicates, or any Person having systematic betting strategies will be subject to having their account suspended, their earnings removed and their deposit refunded.
  6. Sep 6, 2013
  7. Sovietsky

    Sovietsky Senior Member

    If I play 5 times on red and 5 times on black that would be considered as a betting strategy, no?
    2 people like this.
  8. Sep 6, 2013
  9. toutou77

    toutou77 Dormant account PABnononaccred

    Plaine Magnien
    There is no max bet rule and they shouldn't make a big deal when a player continue to bet around 120 a spin on 12 numbers or less and wager over 40,000. This kind of bet is still risky.
    Even if I placed a $1 a spin after the big win , it is not against their terms but I placed around 120 on 12 numbers or less.
  10. Sep 7, 2013
  11. Nifty29

    Nifty29 Dormant account

    Turn right, then right. then right again
    Let's cut to the chase here mate.

    You're an advantage player. You know it, and I know it. I'm certain you do this at every casino, and probably have done so for quite some time. The strategy you employed is NOT what your average Joe would use...in fact it is pretty much ONLY advantage players that would bet their entire balance on the first bet. So, let's not pretend you're all innocent and stuff. You know what you were doing.

    As such, you would also know that what you were doing was VERY risky, and I don't mean in a gambling/bet sense. Just about every online casino on Earth would consider your play to be that of an advantage player and "bonus abuser" (I use quotations because I don't believe bonus abuse exists, but casinos DO). Hence, you would also know that there is ALWAYS a risk that you will not be paid if you play this way....the advantage player accepts this as "the cost of doing business".

    I assume that you did NOT read the terms and conditions BEFORE you agreed to them. I make this assumption based on the idea that anyone with any sense at all, after reading said terms, would NEVER bet like you did and think there was no risk of breaching them. In fact, it is pretty much "bonus abuse 101" when it comes to such terms.

    Whilst I may not agree with the non-specific nature of these rules, the facts remain that:

    1. You agreed to be bound by them

    2. You could have clarified with management that your method of play was acceptable BEFORE you played

    3. The time to decide the terms were unacceptable to you was BEFORE you played

    4. You took an "extra gamble" that your play would not violate the terms. You lost.

    The term basically states that the casino can decide what is abusive and what's not....and you said "OK" to that by registering your account. A crappy term....but you agreed to abide by it.

    Bottom line is that it is basically YOUR fault. Whether the casino itself is crap or rogue etc is a totally seperate matter. Once you signed up and took their bonuses you acknowledged that they might be rogue but you were going ahead anyhow.

    The question I'd ask those who often go right to "its all the casinos fault they are rogue etc" is simple:

    After reading those terms, would YOU bet your whole balance on your first bet, and then cover 1/3 of the table with smaller bets to meet WR? (Honest answer folks....seriously).
  12. Sep 7, 2013
  13. toutou77

    toutou77 Dormant account PABnononaccred

    Plaine Magnien
    Nifty, you are right and you are wrong

    Because you are wrong more than you are right let me start with the wrong

    1. I did read their terms, in their terms they specify players that play low risk as bonus abusers and not player that risk much of their funds

    2. Advantage player will not play as I played, the reason is simple - advantage player will play aggressive to be bust at any point in order not to fulfill the wagering but just build as much as possible from a bonus, reducing the bet just decrease the expected value, something you may know or now you know

    3. You are wrong about the fact I thought I wouldn't be paid betting like that. Many players use the bonus to increase their winnings in such a way and reduce the bet after they win big. If no max bet in the terms feel free to do it.

    4. You are wrong about accusing me here while Ace Live enforce spirit of the bonus rule . You shouldn't accuse me for anything when it is not in the terms.

    5. you are wrong when you say I was pretending, where exactly did you see I am trying to pretend to be a stupid gambler ?

    You are right about one thing - I played the bonus in such a way the casino is going to lose in the long run but this is no big deal, many players play like that and get paid every day and get paid and everybody is happy. So you were right I am an advantage player but the way I played it is far from how a real advantage player would do it.

    Just remeber it is stupid to reach high balances when you come to take advantage of a bonus. I came to risk and play and as I said I coninued to risk the funds in the process of wagering.

    When you deposit 500 and get 500 bonus you start with a 1000 so what is wrong in playing aggressive

    By the way, as far as I remember, I didn't play the whole balance at a single bets and not even in 2 bets another thing you are wrong.

    So as a taxi driver told me in Thailand - you don't know you don't talk
  14. Sep 7, 2013
  15. Nifty29

    Nifty29 Dormant account

    Turn right, then right. then right again
    So as my experience in online gambling tells me - you play like that you might not get paid.

    Thanks for confirming you are an advantage player. It means you should know better, and most likely do. Not every AP plays to the absolute letter I.e. max bets all the way. Sure its the best way, but not the only way....after all, YOU did it, right?

    Why is it "stupid to reach high balances etc"? Sounds like you only apply that Thai cabbies advice when it suits. Another example is this "low risk" guff you're on about....it wasn't in the term they quoted, so who cares? Under that term in the email, they can pretty much take your winnings whenever they choose...and YOU AGREED TO IT. If you DID read the terms, then you didn't do it very carefully. I wonder what your Thai taxi driver would say about that :rolleyes:

    I also bet you played the same way with your other bonuses there....which seems to be a big part of the reason they invoked that rule.

    Players such as yourself make me laugh....not because you lost your winnings, but because you fully accept awful terms to get your hands on a juicy bonus, and then cry about it when they take your winnings away under one of those terms. If you don't LIKE the terms then DON'T PLAY. It's not rocket science.

    You tried to milk their bonuses, and got caught out by their "you are not allowed to milk our bonuses" rule. Tough cookies. Rules like that exist because of players such as yourself. Remember that.

    Good luck getting paid!
    1 person likes this.
  16. Sep 7, 2013
  17. toutou77

    toutou77 Dormant account PABnononaccred

    Plaine Magnien
    Their terms is nothing special but a standard terms every casino has .

    They knew exactly how I play, why did they send an exclusive offer designed specially for me, this is what they said in the Email they sent ?

    I am sure they know what you know but they still sent an exclusive offer.

    And again what is the big deal, I didn't bet the whole balance at a single spin so why to make a big deal from somebody who deposit 500 get 500 start with 1000 and reach 7000 after 40,000 which is a lot of wagering ?

    If they don't pay me they should be rogued here do you agree ?
  18. Sep 7, 2013
  19. hakapuku

    hakapuku Banned User - repeated violations of rule 1.14 (tr

    Ouh those players wishing to win at online casinos! They must be punished! Only those who want to lose, lose and lose should be allowed to play at the casinos. Because it is only the casinos who have a right " to milk players' deposits" and never the opposite.
    P.S. I think that the ideal player (as casinos and NIfty see him) is the one that after hitting a big win at slots- asks casino to remove the winnings from his balance since it never was his intention to win anything).
    3 people like this.
  20. Sep 7, 2013
  21. KasinoKing

    KasinoKing WebMeister & Slotaholic.. CAG MM PABnonaccred webmeister

    House-Husband and Casino Advisor
    Bexhill on sea, England
    I have to party disagree with Nifty on this one. This we agree on:
    Yes players should always read the T&C's before they start.
    No they should not deliberately break any specific rule.
    Yes "advantage players" are what make casinos put all these convoluted terms in place to start with.

    The player took a HUGE risk of losing his whole deposit (and bonus) on his first spin. I would guess the bet must have been no more than an even-money chance - otherwise there would be no point doing it.
    There was no SPECIFIC rule disallowing this style of play - "spirit of the bonus" rules just don't wash, as Casinomeister himself states.
    The casino ALLOWED him to place the huge opening bet and the subsequent very large bets. If they don't want players betting like this, then they should limit the bet sizes.

    This is the classic win-win scenario for the casino:
    Players bet their whole balance on one spin and lose - the casino wins.
    Players bet their whole balance on one spin and win - the winning are confiscated for "spirit of the bonus" bullshit rules - the casino wins.

    It's not the players who cause all these "bonus abuse" problems: players try to win - that's the whole point of gambling isn't it?
    The problems are all (and I mean ALL) caused by the casinos not making their bonuses "un-abusable".
    And the REASON they chose not to make them un-abusable, is because it puts them in the win-win position described above.

    Bottom line in this case, is the player should be paid in full, and then excluded from the casino.

    I suggest the payer should Pitch-a-Bitch.

    16 people like this.
  22. Sep 7, 2013
  23. albrco123

    albrco123 "Wish i could Re-" Member

    As KK said, the Casino was in a Win-Win situation here, I doubt if the OP had lost on this 2nd deposit that the Casino would have excluded him and refunded the deposits.

    Difficult to call them Rogue though as from what I understand they did refund all deposits and the OP did fall foul one of the Terms (no matter how lousy a term it is), surely the "fairest" course of action would be to payout in full and then exclude the OP.


    1 person likes this.
  24. Sep 7, 2013
  25. Balky

    Balky Senior Member

    What I am missing in the casinos explanation and terms is a clearly written definition of advantage play. Denying to pay out winnings based on suspecting advantage play is not acceptable and a "spirit of the bonus" term. Since apparently no rule was broken, the casino has the obligation to pay the winnings. If they dislike his playing style they can ban him or close his account afterwards. Just my personal opinion.

    Last edited: Sep 7, 2013
  26. Sep 8, 2013
  27. toutou77

    toutou77 Dormant account PABnononaccred

    Plaine Magnien
    I am able to read info about pitch a bitch but I can't find a link to the form
  28. Sep 8, 2013
  29. thenry14

    thenry14 Experienced Member PABnonaccred

    This and that
    The link to PAB is in the PAB FAQ. If you have read the FAQ you must have missed it, and you may have missed other important information about the PAB process. I recommend you read the FAQ again to find the link and read the rest of the FAQ.
    2 people like this.
  30. Sep 8, 2013
  31. Jasminebed

    Jasminebed Grumpy old gal

    Not in workforce
    1 person likes this.
  32. Sep 8, 2013
  33. skiny

    skiny Banned User - violation of <a href="http://www.cas

    Doing everyone else's job.
    I'm probably just nit picking here but I'm not too fond of casinos deciding who or what is a recreational player. In this case they're probably right in assuming the OP is a bonus hunter looking for casinos with big bonuses and no max bet rules but it's a fairly an indefinable term. Everyone who gambles is gambling to win and there are no professional roulette or slot players. Regardless of your betting strategy you still have a fairly good chance to lose when you deposit, bonus or not.

    Well, the OP would probably be happy to continue with his membership as long as they keep handing big bonuses without max bet rules and the fact that these are deposit bonuses means he is playing with his own money at least in part. The problem is I don't see mention any broken terms. Just a dislike for the way the player placed his bets. That's not bonus abuse. I can see where the casino might feel the OP is an advantage player but then that's another difficult to define term that I'm not real fond of. Everyone who takes a bonus is supposed to be taking advantage of it. If there was no advantage to taking it, why is it being offered?

    Terms have to be well defined and not open to interpretation after the fact. Casinos are well within their right to arbitrarily decide who they give bonuses to and who they want playing at their casino but they're not within their right to arbitrarily decide who they're going to pay and who they're not. Decisions not to pay players have to be based on very specific rules. An exact list of things players are allowed and not allowed to do. This might sound daunting but the reality is the list shouldn't be very long since the only real issues a casino should have while giving a bonus is how much the player has to wager, how much the player is allowed to bet per wager and what games the player is allowed to play. Anything above and beyond that should be completely unnecessary.

    So don't offer him any more bonuses.

    That's a good way of losing your entire deposit in a hurry too. I'm fairly certain the casino would have no complaints if this was the outcome.

    The OP made a real money deposit. He's a genuine player.

    There's no such thing as bonus abuse.

    If anyone has a high enough balance after meeting the wage requirements they're well within their right to make a withdrawal and most people would agree that playing on usually results in an eventual zero balance. If players aren't supposed to profit from the use of bonus funds why the hell are they being offered? Even mentioning that part was just silly.

    Abusing your "many" generous bonuses? Why does it take many bonuses to decide they're being abused? If the OP has made a €5,400 profit by taking these bonuses why was another one offered? If you're not happy with the way a player is profiting from your bonuses you stop offering them. You don't stop paying him.

    If you can't figure out how to set up a deposit bonus so you don't get robbed by these types of players then hire someone who can. Or join a reputable casino, take their bonus offers and copy them. That way you don't get robbed by bonus hunters and you might even win something.
    7 people like this.
  34. Sep 10, 2013
  35. MisterBJ

    MisterBJ Account suspended until further notice - please co

    The OP should be paid IMHO. The casino was willing to give him $500 of their money to wager, along with $500 of the OP money. The casino could have easily limited the bet size either by software or by writing it in their terms. They chose not to do neither. This maybe a costly lesson for the casino, and maybe they will correct themselves. But to stand on a win/win clause is unacceptable. In spirit of the bonus is complete Bullshit. I go to land casinos all the time. I'm giving vouchers where I can go to a table, and play the entire voucher on 1 hand, regardless of the value. If the bonus would have been $20 and a $20 deposit; And the OP placed in all on 1 bet and won. Finally cashing out $100. I bet the casino wouldn't have a problem paying the OP. This is what's wrong with the state of online gambling. There are just too many willing to take and not give.
    1 person likes this.
  36. Sep 22, 2013
  37. toutou77

    toutou77 Dormant account PABnononaccred

    Plaine Magnien
    Gambling Grumbles blacklisted Ace Live, Thepogg told me 25th he is doing so and he has no expectation from these people.

    Max from Casinomeister think I broke their terms although I never admit I broke any of their term.

    I wrote Max 2 email but he ignores me
  38. Sep 22, 2013
  39. Nifty29

    Nifty29 Dormant account

    Turn right, then right. then right again
    Max will NOT be ignoring you. He isn't that kind of guy.

    Are you using hotmail or yahoo or something?

    Remember, he may not be online weekends.

    If Max thinks you broke the terms, then that's good enough for me....but let's see how the PAB ends up. Which reminds me...why are you discussing your dispute in the forums when you have a PAB in progress?

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