Absolute Poker is absolutely rigged. (New evidence, near certain proof its rigged).

pokeraddict

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Aug 3, 2002
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Las Vegas
KGC claims in an earlier statement they own AP. Now they are fining AP $500,000. Are they fining themselves? Maybe I misunderstood?

Obviously there are massive details left out and covered up. Who's surprised? KGC and AP obviously don't take it seriously. Why should they when people still play there and affiliates continue to support them sending unknowing players to these thieves?

Right now there isnt a more secure room online that AP and UB.
The above quote was made on CAP in a disgusting post and has been echoed by the likes of G911. When affiliates make comments like this and continue to support rogues it shows you just why rooms like AP don't have any reason to change.
 

KellyBlend

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Sep 28, 2007
Location
Germany
The Kahnawake Gaming Commission (KGC) announced today an audit into the current and historic activities of Absolute Poker and interaction with its gaming and financial systems. As a KGC licence holder Absolute Poker is obliged to adhere to the Regulations Concerning Interactive Gaming.

Absolute Poker has agreed to fully cooperate with the KGC and / or its agents.

Mr David Montour, the Commissions Chairman, said, This week allegations of impropriety have been bought to the attention of the Kahnaw:ke Gaming Commission. We have appointed experts to conduct a thorough audit of all circumstances, provide findings and recommendations to the Commission. The audit will not be restricted to examining theories circulating in Internet chat rooms and fora.

.........

Mohawk Territory of Kahnawake
17 October, 2007
Annotation:
The technique to limit the scope of an audit subsequently is one possibility for the auditor to change the wording of an audit report.
 

GaryWatson

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Jun 15, 2007
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Europe
No matter what the outcome of the report, I have seen enough to avoid them like the plague. Maybe I am being narrow minded but when I deposit money, Its my money (until the likes of pokeraddict takes it off me). I want a site that is honest all of the time, not just some of the time. yeah, Lots0, whitewash but what can we do other than warn others. Too many brown paper bags in the industry.

I think the US made a stupid move last year, but something has to be done & the current regime is a joke.
 

KellyBlend

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Joined
Sep 28, 2007
Location
Germany
We in Europe have more or less the same situation than in the US or even Canada. I think that it would be the right decision to force the KGC, to do the right things in the right direction.
 

mussy

Dormant account
Joined
Jun 19, 2003
(cut and pasted from pokerati)

(JANUARY 11, 2008) Absolute Poker (AP) issued the following statement today in response to the Kahnawake Gaming Commissions (KGC) release of its report In the Matter of Absolute Poker Investigation Regarding Complaints of Cheating.

When Absolute Poker notified the KGC of the security breach in our system, we had every expectation that the Commission would undertake a comprehensive and fair investigation. After reviewing the published report, we recognize the completeness and accuracy of the KGC conclusions, and we accept without reservation the KGCs findings and sanctions. Most importantly, we are pleased, after these many months, that Absolute Poker can finally put behind it a most distressing and regrettable experience for the Company, its employees, and its customers.

The KGC points out that AP has taken the appropriate actions to address the vulnerability in its systemsand to prevent its systems from being compromised again AP has appointed a team of both internal and external members to improve controls and install safeguards, and accepts the audit findings as an opportunity to improve our internal practices and guarantee the safest playing environment in the industry.

We are pleased that the KGCs findings of fact point out that there is no evidence to indicate that the impugned activities were initiated or sanctioned by APor were intended to benefit AP, as a corporate entity. The report also states that AP made expeditious efforts to appropriately reimburse all playerswith interest who were affected by the cheating.

The Company also regrets the inadvertent deletion of certain gaming logs and records during the course of the investigation, although AP is relieved that these deletions did not, according to the KGC, prevent the Commission from obtaining sufficient information

Having experienced first-hand the devastating impact of a security breach, we fully appreciate the importance of trust and security for AP itself and the broader industry. A secure site goes to the heart of player confidence, and we are more committed than ever to ensuring that confidence. To that end, we have taken it upon ourselves to convene on January 18, 2008 the first of a series of poker security summits. AP will invite respected and independent members of the poker community to focus on innovative and cutting-edge ways to further improve APs security and enhance its transparency.

As AP has repeatedly stated in the past, we regret the damage done to our players and to our own reputation by this incident. We acknowledge that the Company did not act with sufficient speed to uncover the fraud; however, once we were convinced of the veracity of the allegations, we moved quickly to inform the KGC and to reimburse affected players. While AP is paying a severe penalty for the fraud perpetrated upon the Company and its customers, we are gratified that we can now close the book on this sordid affair and return our full focus to providing the safest, most secure, and most eenjoyable poker playing experience in the industry.
 
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GaryWatson

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Jun 15, 2007
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Europe
Its laughable. stealing from players is one thing. What stuck in my throat was the theft from charity. now there is low & just scraping the barrel. To be honest I just consider the whole saga sickening
 

Self Made

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Aug 7, 2004
Location
United States
The thing that struck me about the report (along with the lack of detail we would like to see) was that they didn't make any mention of punishment of the person/people who destroyed evidence. Sanction 1(c) talks about removing the person responsible for the impugned activities. But the definition of impugned activities in the first paragraph only seems to refer to the cheating. Of course it's possible they were the same person.

And what about the choice of words "mind and management?" If they're just an employee, you fire them and that's the end of it. But if they were an owner they could still have an influence on "mind."

Was the guilty party AJ Green, or whatever his real name is, as I've seen reported? I don't know the evidence well enough to express an opinion on that.

KGC claims in an earlier statement they own AP. Now they are fining AP $500,000. Are they fining themselves? Maybe I misunderstood?
As discussed earlier in this thread, it was Joe Norton, not the KGC, that claimed to own Absolute.
 

jetset

RIP Brian
CAG
Joined
Feb 22, 2001
Location
Earth
ABSOLUTE POKER ACCEPTS KGC FINDINGS

Damage control on steroids as online poker site tries to regain credibility

Absolute Poker was perhaps predictably in full damage control mode in responding over the weekend to the Kahnawake Gaming Commission findings on its cheating scandal (see previous InfoPowa reports) In a statement released to carefully selected media, the troubled site acknowledged "...the completeness and accuracy of the KGC conclusions."

Judging by initial reactions on player message boards there are many that will argue that statement. Numerous posts have been made criticising the KGC for the lack of detail in its published findings regarding those responsible, how the scam worked and what action has been taken against the fraudsters.

The main penalty imposed by the Commission requires Absolute Poker to pay a fine of US$ 500 000 within 60 days, and the firm has to foot the bill for the investigation by Gaming Associates triggered by the Commission. It will also be required to place a deposit, the value of which is not disclosed, with the Commission for 2 years against future conduct, and will be randomly audited at its expense. Other more precautionary restraints include a requirement to implement a "continuance compliance program" which is not detailed, remove permanently from office those responsible for the debacle, and activate a remedial program.

The Absolute Poker statement accepting the KGC findings and penalties says: "After reviewing the published report, we recognize the completeness and accuracy of the KGC conclusions, and we accept without reservation the KGC’s findings and sanctions. Most importantly, we are pleased, after these many months, that Absolute Poker can finally put behind it a most distressing and regrettable experience for the Company, its employees, and its customers."

The company goes on to use the opportunity to reiterate that it has paid off those players prejudiced by the cheating, repaired the vulnerability in its systems which it claims made the scam possible and has appointed a team "to improve controls and install safeguards."

The statement lays emphasis on the findings that "there is no evidence to indicate that the impugned activities were initiated or sanctioned by AP…or were intended to benefit AP, as a corporate entity" and the "inadvertent deletion of certain gaming logs and records during the course of the investigation."

Absolute Poker also uses the statement as a platform to announce that it is to introduce a series of "poker security summits" starting January 18 to which "respected and independent members of the poker community" will be invited in order to "focus on innovative and cutting-edge ways to further improve AP’s security and enhance its transparency."

Concluding with a general apology, Absolute Poker's statement says it regrets the damage done to its players and to its reputation by the incident.

"We acknowledge that the Company did not act with sufficient speed to uncover the fraud; however, once we were convinced of the veracity of the allegations, we moved quickly to inform the KGC and to reimburse affected players. While AP is paying a severe penalty for the fraud perpetrated upon the Company and its customers, we are gratified that we can now close the book on this sordid affair.”

The KGC findings released Friday included the following:

* From August 14 2007 over a period of 6 weeks certain player accounts were used to cheat other players in live games at Absolute Poker using software that enabled the cheaters to view the hole cards of their opponents, resulting in unfair play.

* The accounts responsible for the cheating are named as Graycat, Payup, Steamroller, Potripper, XXCashmoneyXX aka SupercardM55, Doubledrag and RonfalcoXXB aka Romnaldo. AP has been directed to remove the individuals behind these account names from playing any role in future AP affairs.

* Persons "associated with Absolute Poker's operations" deleted certain key gaming logs after the cheating, a move which hampered but did not preclude a finding being reached. Other than this, AP cooperated during the investigation.

* Gaming Associates found no evidence that AP as a corporate entity was involved in the cheating either at director or "principal ownership" level.

* However, the unidentified principals behind Absolute Poker failed to contact the KGC within 24 hours of discovering the incident as required by licensing regulations.

* Gaming Associates found that AP made "expeditious efforts" to appropriately reimburse those players prejudiced, with interest. KGC urges any aggrieved player not yet paid to contact the Commission, which will ensure the complaint is addressed by AP. There is a 60 day window for this, commencing 11 January 2008.

* The finding certifies that Absolute Poker has taken appropriate but unspecified action to address the vulnerability in its systems.
 

jetset

RIP Brian
CAG
Joined
Feb 22, 2001
Location
Earth
Here's a random thought....does anyone think that the Kahnawakes might use their US$500 000 windfall from this affair to revamp and energise a more player-sensitive complaints system????
 

Keyser

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Sep 7, 2006
Location
USA
This would get an F in grade school

I have read the GA report, which took me all of 2 minutes.

This is what I learned:
AP had employees who deleted records which hindered their "investigation".

What I didn't learn:
What exactly the breach was
When did it start
How did it happen
How long did it go on for
How widespread was it
How much money was stolen
Who was reponsible and who was involved (And no, listing of a few account names don't count)
Who in AP knew what was going on
Who in AP should have known about it but didnt
A detailed account of when AP learned of what was going on and how they reacted to it
What was done to the people that were involved, and what future actions might be taken
What actions will be taken to prevent such an occurrence from repeating itself

Honestly, what was the point? At least pretend that you care!

If you want to see what a similar investigation should look like, see the Thornburgh report on the Dan Rather CBS fake memos scandal (Yes, I read the whole thing, despite the fact that it was slightly longer than the GA report :)
 

KellyBlend

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Joined
Sep 28, 2007
Location
Germany
Imho it is also important to understand that an auditor ordinarily does only a lot of normative-actual value comparisons, fixes certain random checks and checks the results of remarkable phenomena in more detail. He goes forward in essential things differently than a detective who assumes criminal energy by a much higher extent. And this is also the reason why in most audit reports you find a caveat like for example, "beyond this, it was not our task to find further dulose actions". To be honest, this case should release under criminal aspects further inquiries by Canadian detectives. I do not wish this Absolute Poker, but this company would have earned such an examination. And perhaps such an investigation would be in best interest of Joe Norton or Absolute Poker as a corporate identity to clean the mess. We all know that we have already a similar case on ub.
 

GaryWatson

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Joined
Jun 15, 2007
Location
Europe
1. That only suitable persons and entities are permitted to operate within Kahnawake;
2. That the games offered are fair to the player; and
3. That winners are paid.
4. That cheats are protected.
5. That the general public are idiots.
 

NASHVEGAS

Banned User - flamming, disrespecting admin,
Joined
Dec 10, 2006
Location
MERS
1. That only suitable persons and entities are permitted to operate within Kahnawake;
2. That the games offered are fair to the player; and
3. That winners are paid.
4. That cheats are protected.
5. That the general public are idiots.
Standard operating procedure seems to me (do not single Kahnawake out but they will prolly win the MVP for 2007)......Btw, you left out #6 but your point is spot on regardless!
 

mussy

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Joined
Jun 19, 2003
New Doubts About UB

I'm not sure whether this should have a thread all of its own, but doubts are resurfacing over UB [owned, of course, by the people who own AP]. Some may recall that I posted a PocketFives piece by gank some weeks back, but had to backtrack because it became unclear how reliable it was.

Now there is a
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, and one
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. They revolve mainly around somebody called NioNio, who took a lot of money from highstakes players at UB, only to disappear apparently within days of the Absolute scandal breaking in full. He didn't just stop playing, the account was closed. It might be the employee's son mentioned in the gank piece, although it might be something else entirely. Other possibly suspicious accounts are being named, too.

None of the HH have so far looked terribly suspicious, but the win rate is extraordinary, apparently, and the sudden disappearance clearly looks odd, especially the timing of it.

Phil Hellmuth (who is associated with UB) has been quoted from chat sessions as saying that there is nothing to it, that NioNio is actually a well-known player. A lot of reputable posters view NioNio as suspicious, though.


EDIT: I should have said that some parts of gank's piece have been disputed, and I still don't know how reliable it is.
 
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SeattleSinner

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What really got to me was the line in the report on the first page second paragraph. "As a result of received complaints, the Commission initiated an investigation into AP's operations." This is totally untrue. Kahnawake was called in my AP themselves when they finally admitted the cheating. This is also laughable considering any complaint I have ever made to Kahnawake would be and has been ignored.

Unfortunately I think this just demonstrates the further need for a reputable body like the U.S. government to step into the online gaming world to regulate. If this does not happen innocent unsuspecting consumers will continue to be cheated in a known or unknown fashion.
 

GaryWatson

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Unfortunately I think this just demonstrates the further need for a reputable body like the U.S. government to step into the online gaming world to regulate. If this does not happen innocent unsuspecting consumers will continue to be cheated in a known or unknown fashion.
I wouldnt want the US government in to regulate anything. They have little respect for international laws & this is an international issue. i think that would be a step in the wrong direction.
 

KellyBlend

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Germany
Why not? The U.S. have already other international treaties with some Mohawks. The Mohawks have a certain right to do business like other countries, but they have to accept also international law, common business practices and ethics; and they have to improve their online gambling regulations (not only on paper - but in practise). I think they would be very interested to agree upon a gambling treaty with the U.S., even if they have to comply with severe additional requirements. We in Europe wait on something like that.

However, I see the problem more with the U.S. than with the Mohawks. The U.S. have more or less the same problem than we in Germany because the legalization of gambling falls under the heading of states rights as guaranteed by the U.S. Constitution and not under U.S. federal law. And the states want to collect taxes and to protect their own gambling business. Each state has other regulations or considerations. Therefore, Barney Franks Proposal was imho a joke which helped him to get some House votes. This is my evaluation of the U.S. scenery - from the far distance.

Online Poker is now banned in Germany. All German States signed a new common law. However, more or less the majority of German players still plays online poker. We wait and see what will happen in the near future.

According to my view the best way would be the UK approach. And I cannot understand why U.S. players are not allowed to play on a poker site with a proper EU-license. I think this will be a major discussion in the near future, too.
 

GaryWatson

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I think any green light for the US would spell bad news for anyone outside the US. I think to allow a country like the US to have full regulatory powers would be a bad move

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I consider the UIGEA more of a ploy to steal control. I consider the UK as a more stable option & thats not because I am based in the UK. Ideally it should be an iinternational thing. Laws vary from country to country.

Our biggest issues.....

Dishonest sites.
Sites held accountable to no-one but themselves.
False & misleading terms.
Full public disclosure of ownership

I think sites should be run like banks & held accountable as such. Each participating country should have a rep to ensure their own laws are covered & a voting system in place for universal issues. Kahnawake to be scrapped for being a shell of a company. Bring in true regulators or keep it as it is, the ones in place are nothing more that a licence to print money. they are actually worse than that because they lead players into a false sense of security.
 

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