A random question on the randomness of random RNG

spinner0206

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Ok all you meisters....I'm gonna be honest here, I can cook ( good I mean..) I can write ( stories, poems, songs I mean ) and I'm pretty darn artistic, ( painting, drawing, creating, I mean ) BUT I DO HAVE TECHNICAL ISSUES WITH THE WAY MY BRIAN WORKS.



You see, I try to imagine how this RNG is supposed to work, I mean we all know it works for s$&t !! But I mean how is it supposed to work??



To tell the truth I get a feeling like the fate of my play is decided upon from the moment I make my deposit. Like making the deposit is clicking the " win ", " lose" button instead of each individual spin.



At a land based casino you can walk away and change your machine and feel like you are starting " fresh " ( cept for the 50.00 you already dropped..LOL). But when your playing online, can you do anything to change things up really??



Is it time...if you are having a really sucky run...can you log off for a couple of hours and get a completley different play if you come back a few hours later???



How do I get a new machine??



I've seen you all posting it.......How at the beginning, while working through the playthrough of the bonus...we get some great hits, we see some action, surprize and some real randomness!! As the playthrough wears itself down...the play goes from good ( or at least o.k.) to bad, to sucky, to suckiest!!



Isn't it supposed to be possible, for instance, to have played through $100.00 with crappy play and suddenly some amazing randomness kicks in AND then the good play kicks in out of nowhere??



I never have that happen, you know, going bad to good or great...but shouldn't that be possible with all the randomness???



I hope some of you can understand my simple, untechnical, query here.



If I log on..play...and log off....come back...am I right back at the same sequence of play I was going to be in the first place...that would mean my play is decided and it can't change.

If you can have the randomness click in, why do they always say not to worry if your disconnected, the casino will remember where you were?? How can it if it is all random??



Another example, sometimes when nothings happening, I wait for a bonus round ( you know, one where you have to pick your mulitpliers or spins...and then I log off so when I come back I can start with a bonus round...but that bonus is going to be the exact same it was going to be if I'd stayed and played it an hour ago ( that part I get, the bonus round was decided when I hit the bonus round...) but what about the spin after that..is it going to be the same spin it would have been an hour ago or will it be different???



Well, some of you should have some fun with this one....



Oh, and one more...if I'm having a really fantastic run playing 25 cent bets is it going to change the great run by upping the bet? Does it start a whole new sequence because it knows you just increased the wager? I have had some really great continuous win runs with small bets and yet whenever its 1.00 I notice the win runs are not so long and not so great..and when I finally seem to hit a winning run I'm afraid if I increase the bet ( the little man inside sees this and shuts me down....)



Is everyone still with me...or did I loose everyone at " I have technical issues with the way my brain works...LOL "



ANYONE????:lolup:
 

KasinoKing

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Well to me a RNG is just that - a Random Number Generator.
That's all it does - generates a random number which the software uses in the manor it is programmed for.
What I'm trying to say is the RNG itself does not effect in any way whether the slot or other game will be in loose or tight mode - only the software (if programed that way) could effect it.

Basically it boils down to one simple question: Do you trust the software to give you a completely random game or not?

Unfortunately the answer is not a simple as the question because it's virtually impossible to prove if you're getting a totally fair game.
Because of this you will get wildly varying views from different players; some convinced it's rigged, some convinced it's fair and (probably the majority) somewhere in the middle.

So what can you do?
Well IMO if you think the softwares are rigged - don't play online.
It's as simple as that.

KK
 

maphesto

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To add some, KK has already told you the important stuff.

Online casinos claim that their software is totally based on random, these words from me is based upon the fact that they are telling us the truth. Of course we trust them, don´t we? :D

When RNG really isn´t rigged or weighted in any way at all every single spin is independent from earlier spins.

It doesn´t matter if the last spin gave the player jackpot.

To tell the truth I get a feeling like the fate of my play is decided upon from the moment I make my deposit. Like making the deposit is clicking the " win ", " lose" button instead of each individual spin.

Well, we all recognize this. :) But it´s an illusion. Of course there are some players who think that the RTP dippers from day to day at RTG casinos. I don´t.

At a land based casino you can walk away and change your machine and feel like you are starting " fresh " ( cept for the 50.00 you already dropped..LOL). But when your playing online, can you do anything to change things up really??

Same answer, every single spin on any machine is independent from all earlier spins.
You don´t have to change machine if you believe in the RNG.
If you are in some kind of doubt, leave the casino and return the day you feel happier. :)

Of course many players think that it´s rigged same days they are getting speeding tickets or overcooked pasta for dinner. :D

Is it time...if you are having a really sucky run...can you log off for a couple of hours and get a completley different play if you come back a few hours later???

Well, it´s strange isn´t it?;) But then you know it doesn´t say win or lose the same second you deposit! Right? :)

If you are coming to this conclusion, just log off and return later. :thumbsup:


How do I get a new machine??

As said, return later.

Isn't it supposed to be possible, for instance, to have played through $100.00 with crappy play and suddenly some amazing randomness kicks in AND then the good play kicks in out of nowhere??

It happens. Quite often actually.


If you can have the randomness click in, why do they always say not to worry if your disconnected, the casino will remember where you were?? How can it if it is all random??

The game remember if you hit the bonus game and what you chose if it´s a picking game.

If you have 3 spins left on a free spin round those will remain and all those three are random.

Another example, sometimes when nothings happening, I wait for a bonus round ( you know, one where you have to pick your mulitpliers or spins...and then I log off so when I come back I can start with a bonus round...but that bonus is going to be the exact same it was going to be if I'd stayed and played it an hour ago ( that part I get, the bonus round was decided when I hit the bonus round...) but what about the spin after that..is it going to be the same spin it would have been an hour ago or will it be different???

The spin after the bonus round is a new spin and has nothing to do with earlier play.

Oh, and one more...if I'm having a really fantastic run playing 25 cent bets is it going to change the great run by upping the bet? Does it start a whole new sequence because it knows you just increased the wager? I have had some really great continuous win runs with small bets and yet whenever its 1.00 I notice the win runs are not so long and not so great..and when I finally seem to hit a winning run I'm afraid if I increase the bet ( the little man inside sees this and shuts me down....)

Same here, it really doesn´t matter if you have increased or decreased your bet.
Every single spin is totally independent from earlier spins.

If, only if, you find things like:

* If I win much at the first free spin out of 15, the other 14 goes crappy...

* I only see the wilds on a non winning line..in 50 spins..and every time I win it´s a smaller win than my bet..

* I hit the free spins with 4 scatters(when it´s enough with three) and the win was crappy..

* My free spins retriggers and retriggers...but my total win after 40 free spins is tripled my bet..

etc. you´ll know that´s these thing are only illusions. :D
 

silcnlayc

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KK: Well IMO if you think the softwares are rigged - don't play online.
KK, I have no beef with you but I am going to put my 2cents in worth here...instead of telling others (not just you but everyone that keeps saying this) not to play online...why can't you just say play elsewhere?? Why must it always be don't play online?

We do not feel all casinos are off their games, only a few of them..and to tell someone this is a little arrogant to me..Just because you (a general you) feel that the games are ok, does not make it ok to act superior. Like we, (a general we)that feel the casinos have changed are stupid or something and can't figure that out ourselves, to quit playing at the said casino? Yes, the other shoe gets old too as one said when players say they feel something is "off", well saying don't play online is old too...it is like being condescending to another that cannot decide for themselves how to act..

There, that is off my chest...a nice way would be to say, well, just change games and see if it feels any different, if not..move on to another, or just ignore the poster...saying quit playing online over and over again, really says nothing and makes it sound as if you are lumping ALL casinos in the same pot, not us. And we players really are not as stupid as some of you choose to think. Some of us have moved on and quit many of the casinos we feel have changed , so to say this , really says nothing we haven't already done ..

Just my thoughts...

.
 

spinner0206

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Thanks for the feedback folks. I've been reading all the " discussions " of course and I have to admit, a bit of it gets a little to high tech for me. I only know what I've experienced of course.
With me, it most always does pretty well, SOMETIME HOT, when the bonus money is playing and gets totally cold as the wagering requirements are made. Like wise I notice that when the bonus's are hit, in later play, there are a fraction of what the bonus paid when I still had bonus to playthrough. On the few occasions I try with no bonus.....well, I personally have never had any no bonus deposit take off running.
Well, whoever likes it or not, I definately see clusters of wins ( and long, long clusters of losses, so yeah, the idea of randomness intices me, but it does not ring true in the play I have seen.
I wish it did. I guess us non believers, will eventually quit and give up trying to prove that randomness does indeed exist....don't you realize we want to believe it??
 

KasinoKing

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KK, I have no beef with you but I am going to put my 2cents in worth here...instead of telling others (not just you but everyone that keeps saying this) not to play online...why can't you just say play elsewhere?? Why must it always be don't play online?

We do not feel all casinos are off their games, only a few of them..and to tell someone this is a little arrogant to me..Just because you (a general you) feel that the games are ok, does not make it ok to act superior. Like we, (a general we)that feel the casinos have changed are stupid or something and can't figure that out ourselves, to quit playing at the said casino? Yes, the other shoe gets old too as one said when players say they feel something is "off", well saying don't play online is old too...it is like being condescending to another that cannot decide for themselves how to act..

There, that is off my chest...a nice way would be to say, well, just change games and see if it feels any different, if not..move on to another, or just ignore the poster...saying quit playing online over and over again, really says nothing and makes it sound as if you are lumping ALL casinos in the same pot, not us. And we players really are not as stupid as some of you choose to think. Some of us have moved on and quit many of the casinos we feel have changed , so to say this , really says nothing we haven't already done ..

Just my thoughts...

.
We can have different opinions - that's fine! :thumbsup:

I group all casinos together by the same software for a reason and frankly I'm surprised you (global you, not just you) don't do the same; I mean, (just using MG for an example here) if you believed just one MG casino had the ability to "Rig, fiddle with, adjust (whatever you want to call it) their games, then don't you think it reasonable to assume that ALL MG casinos could do the same thing as they have the same software?
And if that was the case, would you be happy to carry on playing at an MG casino never knowing if they were going to "flick the switch" at any moment?

Just to make my standpoint clear; I am not saying that any casino softwares are 100% fair - because there is simply no way for me to prove that.
I just chose to trust the ones I play; if I lose I just accept that's one of those things, and if I win.. same as.
Believe me, I lose a LOT, but I just never complain about it.

As for "us" telling "you" what to do - well what do you expect?
If you posted that for the third time this week you had banged you head against a wall and it really hurt, what advice would you expect others to give:
Keep banging your head on that wall and maybe one time it wont hurt.
Or stop banging your head on that wall!

KK
 

kakata

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between women drinking and gambling, I was able to work my position all the way up from nothing, to a state of......extreme poverty....lol:D
 

gdbruyck

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Randomness Control

Basically it boils down to one simple question: Do you trust the software to give you a completely random game or not?

Unfortunately the answer is not a simple as the question because it's virtually impossible to prove if you're getting a totally fair game.

BetVoyager Casino "uses unique Randomness Control technology based on the SHA-256 algorithm (the Secure Hash Algorithm family). This system gives players a 100% guarantee that the casino can't affect the game process during play and lets our players confirm the random nature of every game."
You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.


This statement implies that online casinos can monitor a player's betting patterns and, eventually, can tilt the odds in favor of the house when playing for real money!
 

rockycatt

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ok very simple here it's impossible for it to be 100% random if the house has a predetermined edge realy its that simple :)
 

Mavin1

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We can have different opinions - that's fine! :thumbsup:

I group all casinos together by the same software for a reason and frankly I'm surprised you (global you, not just you) don't do the same; I mean, (just using MG for an example here) if you believed just one MG casino had the ability to "Rig, fiddle with, adjust (whatever you want to call it) their games, then don't you think it reasonable to assume that ALL MG casinos could do the same thing as they have the same software?
And if that was the case, would you be happy to carry on playing at an MG casino never knowing if they were going to "flick the switch" at any moment?


Just to make my standpoint clear; I am not saying that any casino softwares are 100% fair - because there is simply no way for me to prove that.
I just chose to trust the ones I play; if I lose I just accept that's one of those things, and if I win.. same as.
Believe me, I lose a LOT, but I just never complain about it.

As for "us" telling "you" what to do - well what do you expect?
If you posted that for the third time this week you had banged you head against a wall and it really hurt, what advice would you expect others to give:
Keep banging your head on that wall and maybe one time it wont hurt.
Or stop banging your head on that wall!

KK


I do understand what you are saying KK, but if you consider that we are told that casino's/reps or whomever don't have the ability to change things on their end, that only the software provider can, then we are left wondering just what is truthful and what isn't.

In the not so long ago thread regarding Casino 33 and the rep Casino Jack making the statement that he could adjust the RTP upon request for those that would pm him their favorites, then do we assume all RTG casinos truly are able to do this individually or the software provider does it for them? So, already having had my doubts about RTG, this only made me more suspicious of the entire RTG software and every casino that uses it.

Then we have the incompetent actions of Tradition being caught in a situation that has left players of Rival with serious doubts as well. Supposedly the fiddling with the games was done here by a supposed "new employee", at this individual casino. But are we to assume that the whole Rival software has this capability individually or does it happen again from the top. So of course, strike another software off my list of places that I trust.

Then how many times have we heard that a new casino is really hot, untill the honeymoon is over. Things are so hot at first, then the play just goes south. Who's at fault here, the software provider, the casino itself or the players?

Yet we are still reminded that nope the software providers are the only ones that can make changes. So what are players supposed to believe? Since true transparency is obviously not going to happen, then I as a player let my play records speak for themselves. If I don't get a fair return that is even partially equal to my no returns, then yes I do move on. But with the thought of stop playing if you are not happy, well that's all fine and well, but if every player would do this then casinos would dry up and blow away, affiliates would lose half or better of their income, reps would be looking for employment elsewhere and so on, but we the players in the end are not really hurt by any of this as we can just move on somewhere else or just quit playing altogether and spend our money on other things.

So I guess what I am trying to point out, is that with all the complaints or concerns or questions we may have, that only somewhat get answered, is that we in the end are not the ones that will ultimately be affected. Afterall, we are only spending our money. However, Software providers, casinos and their reps, affiliates, all have an investment at stake.

This is not meant in disrespect to KK by any means.

Just my opinion.
 
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KasinoKing

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BetVoyager Casino "uses unique Randomness Control technology based on the SHA-256 algorithm (the Secure Hash Algorithm family). This system gives players a 100% guarantee that the casino can't affect the game process during play and lets our players confirm the random nature of every game."
Well it sounds all fine and dandy I'll agree.
But it is only of any use if you understand how "Randomness Control technology based on the SHA-256 algorithm" works. I've read through all the gumph several times and it might as well be written in Martian for all the sense it made to me! :oops:
I just don't get how it proves the games are 100% random.
How do we know the "SHA-256 algorithm" isn't rigged?

I do understand what you are saying KK, but if you consider that we are told that casino's/reps or whomever don't have the ability to change things on their end, that only the software provider can, then we are left wondering just what is truthful and what isn't.
That is exactly my point; none of us know if the software is fair or not, so each one of us has to chose what we personally believe.
I chose to trust the softwares at the casinos I play.

In the not so long ago thread regarding Casino 33 and the rep Casino Jack making the statement that he could adjust the RTP upon request for those that would pm him their favorites, then do we assume all RTG casinos truly are able to do this individually or the software provider does it for them? So, already having had my doubts about RTG, this only made me more suspicious of the entire RTG software and every casino that uses it.

Then we have the incompetent actions of Tradition being caught in a situation that has left players of Rival with serious doubts as well. Supposedly the fiddling with the games was done here by a supposed "new employee", at this individual casino. But are we to assume that the whole Rival software has this capability individually or does it happen again from the top. So of course, strike another software off my list of places that I trust.
Another perfect example!
It looks like you chose to believe Casino Jack was telling the truth and that Tradition Casino were lying.
Why is that?
Could it be because thats what you want to hear - that both casinos are "cheating" their players?

Personally I believe it's the other way around, Jack was fibbing and Tradition were honest enough to admit their incompetent screw-up.

This is not meant in disrespect to KK by any means.
And I certainly didn't take it that way! We all have slightly different opinions & beliefs - and that's a very good thing. Can you imagine how incredibly dull & boring this forum would be if everyone totally agreed with everyone else about everything! :eek:

And while were on the subject, I want to tell you Mavin you are one of the posters here I respect the most; Your posts are always intelligent, well thought out, objective and interesting. I always look forward to reading your latest contribution! :thumbsup:

KK
 

Lucky Loser

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Okay my understanding of RTP randomness is this.

As a very generalised example a slot machine is programmed during its lifetime for X number of spins (say 1 billion) and over this period gives a return of say 96%.
.
  • Out of the 1 billion spins the top pay will be awarded 1000 times;
  • The 2nd top pay will be awarded 10,000 times;
  • The 3rd top pay will be awarded 100,000 times and so on.
The result of each spin is totally random, but within the pre-programmed parameters. So hypothetically you could get the top pay 1000 times in a row then never again during the 1 billion spin cycle.

For example, I was playing a land based slot one day and got the top pay of 10,000 coins. I kept playing and got the same pay again on a different line 2 spins later - totally random. You could play the same machine for the next 6 months and not get it.

From what I know about Aussie slot machines, and I don't expect online slots to be any different, the RTP can be changed by the operator.

As long as casinos are transparent about their RTP and are independently audited by reputable organisations this is no biggie for me. Unfortunately many are not, so stick to the big names who have commercial reputations to protect.
 

maphesto

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The result of each spin is totally random, but within the pre-programmed parameters. So hypotheically you could get the top pay 1000 times in a row then never again during the 1 billion lifetime spin cycle.

There is no such spin cycle as in a lottery with 1000 tickets.


With total random it´s like this on a slot machine:


They calculate the RTP mathematically with reel layout and paytable.

In this way they can see if it by theory is one 10 00$ win out of 1 billion spins.

In real there can be 5 of those wins in a row..

Every single spin is by random even if there has been 50 of those 1000$ win before.

It´s the same thing even if there has been 100 spins in a row without a win. Next spin can be a winner, or it can be number 101 in a row...
 

Lucky Loser

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Your analogy is not a good one to use and I dont understand your argument.

Slots cannot be totally random because they could throw up the top pay each time or greatly in excess of the RTP ? They are random to a certain extent within a group of pre-determined parameters.

Yes, I agree reel layouts are pre-programmed and tie in with the above. Each symbol has X times a chance of occuring on any given line. Some symbols have more chance of occurring on a line than others.
 

maphesto

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Slots cannot be totally random because they could throw up the top pay each time. They are random to a certain extent within a group of pre-determined parameters.

I gave you the explanation of "total random" and I also said that there is no cycle.

I didn´t say that the slot machine is total random. ;)

Read this post and you will find the theory of another member in doubt.

I certainly liked that post. :)
 

zap987

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The RNG does one thing, it generates numbers which are random. Anything anyone believes about rigged games in casinos would be in regards to how those numbers are used (or not used at all) to get a result for the player.
 

Mavin1

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Well it sounds all fine and dandy I'll agree.
But it is only of any use if you understand how "Randomness Control technology based on the SHA-256 algorithm" works. I've read through all the gumph several times and it might as well be written in Martian for all the sense it made to me! :oops:
I just don't get how it proves the games are 100% random.
How do we know the "SHA-256 algorithm" isn't rigged?


That is exactly my point; none of us know if the software is fair or not, so each one of us has to chose what we personally believe.
I chose to trust the softwares at the casinos I play.


Another perfect example!
It looks like you chose to believe Casino Jack was telling the truth and that Tradition Casino were lying.
Why is that?
Could it be because thats what you want to hear - that both casinos are "cheating" their players?

Personally I believe it's the other way around, Jack was fibbing and Tradition were honest enough to admit their incompetent screw-up.


And I certainly didn't take it that way! We all have slightly different opinions & beliefs - and that's a very good thing. Can you imagine how incredibly dull & boring this forum would be if everyone totally agreed with everyone else about everything! :eek:

And while were on the subject, I want to tell you Mavin you are one of the posters here I respect the most; Your posts are always intelligent, well thought out, objective and interesting. I always look forward to reading your latest contribution! :thumbsup:

KK


Ooops, no no, I totally didn't believe Casino Jack for a minute. I never trusted him because of the way he was always spamming the forum making statements such as, "We had so many winners, payments were delayed", keeping his casino out there for a long run of free solicitation. I had tried them on the free chip and then they were unistalled forever. The ongoing deterioration of him, his casino he represented and the thread that he kept bumping up was more than enough for me.
As for Tradition, I find it hard to comprehend that any reputable casino would allow a trainee to tamper with anything. However after awhile I stopped following the thread, so I may have missed something.
But was just pointing out that incidents like these from individual casinos can tarnish a whole industry and software providers should monitor regularly how their product is being used. If they expected higher standards from the people that use their product then maybe we wouldn't have so many rogue casinos mixed in with the reputable ones.
I feel that there are also to many new casinos popping up too frequently and believe this is putting a serious strain on the reputable casinos that have done the ground work, put in the miles, to build a solid reputaton that players can trust. It's like they are getting lost in the stampede.
With all my bitching and moaning about RTP, I feel the conclusion I have come to is that the competition is out of control and this is having a major impact on the solid well standing casinos and what affects them trickles down to affect reps, affiliates and lastly the players.
I don't know how Software Providers determine to allow a new casino to open, but feel they should put them on a probation period of 2 years, where they are monitored in every aspect until they have proven they are responsible, professional and keep quality not quantity in the product.

Just a side note to you KK, the respect is mutual. edit; Even when you get my dander up. ;)
 
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Lucky Loser

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I gave you the explanation of "total random" and I also said that there is no cycle.

I didn´t say that the slot machine is total random. ;)

Read this post and you will find the theory of another member in doubt.

I certainly liked that post. :)

My apology for the misinterpretation.

My understanding is slot machine outcomes tie in with reel layouts and the laws of probability.

Each symbol has a certain chance of appearing on any given spin and some symbols are far more common than others so certain results are also more common. Over a big cycle like 1 billion spins you would expect the probability of the combinations occuring to be consistent, but the result of each spin is still random.

For example

If you flip a coin it could land on heads twenty times in a row and you would not think it was rigged, because it could happen. The result is totally random and within defined parameters of either heads or tails. If you do this 1 billion times you should get a 50/50 outcome due to the laws of probability and would fall off your chair if you got a 55/45 result.

Similarly, this should apply to slots. Each spin has a chance of X combination occuring and over a very big cycle you should be able to confidently predict the number of times that combination will occur (eg. over 1 billion spins the top pay we will be awarded 1000 times, the 2nd top pay 10,000 times and so on).

Whether my understanding is correct or not is another matter altogether. I have always been a bit suspicious that slots automatically rebalance after a big win due to my often repeated experience of being the victim of a slot vacuum cleaner. Suddenly the slot goes totally cold and nothing hits until all your money is gone.

I also remember reading an article years ago that slot companies were not allowed (in Aus at least) to program slots that intentionally came up with near misses so players thought a big win was just around the corner and would keep feeding the machine. So who knows how they are programmed and how random it all is.
 

4 of a kind

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The bottom line here is that we could all go back and forth with our own theory's, and assumptions on how any one game online may or may not work.

I'm certain no one even really cares as long as it is fair, which brings us to the million dollar unanswered question. Are online games fair?

Everyone wants proof when accused of cheating online. I want proof that it's fair online.

If you had the easy choice to make, would you feel safer playing in Vegas or online regardless what game it is you choose to play?
 

RobWin

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The bottom line here is that we could all go back and forth with our own theory's, and assumptions on how any one game online may or may not work.

I'm certain no one even really cares as long as it is fair, which brings us to the million dollar unanswered question. Are online games fair?

Everyone wants proof when accused of cheating online. I want proof that it's fair online.

If you had the easy choice to make, would you feel safer playing in Vegas or online regardless what game it is you choose to play?

So how do you know that the games in Vegas are fair? Just because the gaming control board sets the minimum RTP at 75% there, does that still make it fair?

It is odd though that casinojack is no longer with RTG or rather an RTG Casino any longer after he made those statements here regarding setting the RTP percentages, isn't it...;)
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