A perfect rigged slot - this is how you make it!

[3Dice]

KimSS,

Alternatively, let me describe the test you could run on your playcheck data to check whether or not an algorithm like the one you describe has been used.

You suggest that a casino would influence when wins are awarded. That implies that the spacing of the wins after the 'tampering' is no longer uniform. The best way to determine if that is the case is by measuring the distribution of the spacing of the wins. One way to do this that results in a graph that you can 'visually' check is the following :

1. express all wins in multiples of the betsize.
2. create categories for each ocuring winsize (2xbet, 3xbet etc)
3. for each category calculate the average nr of spins between two wins in that category
4. for each category construct a distribution graph, with #occurences on the y-axis and on the x-axis the nr of spins.

All the graphs constructed in step 4 should be bell curves around the average from step 3, when provided with sufficient data. (you can make less detailed categories by grouping if you don't have enough data). If your theory is correct you will find win categories (the higher ones) that would show anomalies there.

Cheers,

Enzo

 

[casinojack]

Thanks, that is a good start, but it is a trivial example of a PARS sheet. That slot doesn't have free spins, bonus rounds, scatter symbols, or other things that players claim can be fixed. More typically, PARS sheets have several sheets in them with the calculations for the various features.

By the way, I am very good friends with the mathematician who did that sheet.

--Eliot

Well is the only thing I had that I know had been made public before...

ill dig some more..

 

[steinhaug]

@Eliot Jacobson

This do sound like a fun task, it would be fun as a spare-time project to try and make such a piece of software (should I say proof of conecpt) just to see how hard it would be to beat the system of providing credible data.

I understand that the most easy task would be reverse engineer a known slot. A usual 9 liner would be easy, I do not need a par sheet since we know the reel bands, we also know that randomly positioning all the reels all the time gives 95% or so payout. I assume I would need the following:

1. The flawed RNG, which you feed with lines and betsize, returns reel positions.
2. The bank, polls the game engine and reflects the bank. Also stores stats for the player, and for you to check.
3. The autoplayer which you configure how to play (for easy access).

The three different pieces of software has nothing to do with each other, they are independent tools so to speak.

In the end the randomness of the reels is what gives the payout, I do not feel I need to understand the PAR to make this work? Maby I do, again - I will look into this if I deside to do this.

Also, I would need some help by some friends knowing c++, however my skills are in logic so the accuall c++ would not be my expertice anyway. What I need to look into is how big the task is, if I get anyone to share my interest in this - also what I in the end get out of it, which is nothing exept persuing my nemesis in life - gambling.

To be honest, persuing this any more really defies the purpose since I am thinking of stopping casino games all together. However - it would still be of great interest, however being able to fool someone like you still doesnt proove anything at all, other that it's possible which is something we already know it is.

@ Enzo

You probably seen my other post lately, I have alot of what you are saying already graphed into my multichart. It is very easy to add more calculations into it, or more charts for that matter. However this is timeconsuming.

I also did some runs 2 years ago, analyzing the randomness of reel positions looking at how the reels connected to eachother, say that the first 4 reels lined up and check how the last reel was random (looking to see if the symbols accually giving a good pay were harder to get...). However I only had a some 250.000 spins of data so nobody would accually look into it, to few spins of data.

It's a hard game, since I would need a few million spins to have any accual data. And to be honest I am not willing to deposit enough to get a credible amount of data for deeper testing.

I will however have some words with some friends of mine, if this could be a fun sideproject to do. There are several ways of accomplishing such a testsystem. But I doubt I really have any interest in prooving anything at all, and we should all know by now that completing this project would cosume a few 100 hours of private betatesting before it would be ready for a live-test by any of you.

I will have to think about this, if I even have the time or if this is anything I would like to do at all (as we are talking for real now, and not just theory! I get tired of even thinking of the hours that this project would consume, for nothing other than proving a point!).

 

[maxd]

So if I understand this correctly, there are no rig-threads allowed in the mainstream fora unless proven? Not even speculation?

Forget it. No one seems to give a toss about the point I'm trying to make here and I don't care enough about this to fight over it. If this is what you guys want to spend your time on fill your boots.

Thread moved back to 'Online Casinos'.

 

[thelawnet]

Kimiss,

I don't know if you've seen a PARS ("paytable and reel strip") spread sheet. This is the mathematical model on which modern slots are built, in both land and i-casinos. These models are done in Excel, and the design and programming of the slot follows the specifications of the PARS.

If you haven't seen a PARS sheet, I suggest you contact one of the major slot manufacturers and see if you can get a legacy copy of one. This will give you a good foundation on which to proceed with your arguments.

If you've seen such a sheet, and still wish to pursue your arguments, then please produce complete code written in C++ that I can compile from the command line in Linux using the g++ compiler that you believe passes all the statistical tests conducted on such programs, but is not fair for some reason that only you know. I will run it through my suite of tests, and we'll see what we get. In particular, assume we have a slot with 48 reel stops per reel, 3 reels, and that the reels are equally weighted so that each stop occurs with equal probability, that is, each reel satisfies the most basic of statistical tests independent of the other reels, a chi-squared test on the distribution of each stop. Your program should produce a single line of data in CSV format: X,Y,Z per spin, with each of X,Y,Z between 0 and 47, representing the stop for that reel. I will run it and produce some number of millions of rounds to generate data to test, but I will not give you any more specifics in advance. However, the data is the only thing I will use to determine fairness, I will not inspect your code. I will provide my ftp site to you so you can upload your files. It can also be written in C or Java, but PHP won't do. No manufacturer that I know of programs their slots in PHP.

Best regards,

Eliot

A few things to say here:
* the OP's theory is nonsense. Casinos have no reason to do this. If they want to make more money, they change the paytable/reels/whatever. Slots are great from this perspective. Why would they want to cheat?
* online gaming is basically unregulated, and the type of testing you describe is not testing that I have seen casinos claim they do, so the idea that the OP's theory would not work because it would be caught by appropriate third-party testing rather pre-supposes that such third-party testing takes place.

But anyway, please, ENOUGH OF THE CONSPIRACY THEORIES ALREADY. Slot machines are a licence to print money as it is. No need to cheat.

 

[hippo925]

IMHO, i think this thread is extremely interesting! Especially with the input of the very knowledgeable people already represented in this thread. It will always be very difficult to discuss matters that are usually considered "secretive" in nature... and let's be honest, a lot of people don't really want to know too much detail because it may be so contrary to what they have been led to believe.

Even IF something is true, people don't want to be made to feel stupid or deceived. People don't want to know that bonuses are predetermined. People don't want to know that a slot is not completely random. People don't want to know that they never really had a chance, people don't want to know that some program was determining things outside of the random number generator and PAR sheets...etc. (just examples, by the way)

It's the idea that ignorance is bliss.

I personally don't think online casinos "cheat," but it may be dependent on what your definifion of "cheat" is. "Decepetive" may be a better word.

IF casinos use software that tend to work "differently" than what we think, but still gives you a 95% return in the long run... is it "cheating?" Some people would say yes, others would say no.

For video slots, i was ALWAYS under the impression that a slot was designed by way of reel strips and a random number generator that chose 5 numbers, one for each reel. BUT we know that isn't true in the case of dynamic weighting. For the life of me... I can't think of ONE good reason why that would be! This alone makes me question certain things.

It may not just be a matter of obvious "cheating" by software, but more of deceptive practices that could be seen as "cheating" from a players perspective.

In my other thread, i brought up the "scratch-ticket" type slots used in certain jurisdictions. This method could EASILY be used in online slot software, but would it be "cheating?" Probably not from the casinos point of view, but maybe from the player's.

Another example, if we know that a pick-em bonus is pre-determined and whatever you chose didn't matter...is that cheating? How do you know it isn't similar when you press the "spin" button? (versus picking barrels, shooting ducks, etc....)

And let's be honest, Kimss theory, true or not, conpspiracy or not.... Is it really that hard to believe that it is POSSIBLE? Or is it as ridiculous as, let's say.... A casino software that skews the double up on a video poker game to ONLY the house's favor? Hmmmmm..... Oh... i forgot, that was a software or upgrade "error."

PS..... Anyone seen or have an example of a PAR sheet for a online slot? If they work like vegas slots than surely there has to be examples of them....just wondering.

 

[Eliot Jacobson]

@Eliot Jacobson

This do sound like a fun task, it would be fun as a spare-time project to try and make such a piece of software (should I say proof of conecpt) just to see how hard it would be to beat the system of providing credible data.
...

I have no idea how to build a program of the type you described in your pseudo-code. I think that before you can talk about what is possible, you need to prove you can do what is being done. Take a PARS sheet and write the code. Then take the next step, write a program that passes the statistical tests, looks and feels like the PARS, but cheats. I'd really like to see it. I know you have often written here that you beleive that this is what's going on in some casinos. You have also repeatedly stated your credentials. Now I am offering you the chance. So do it! Write the code and test me.

however being able to fool someone like you still doesnt proove anything at all, other that it's possible which is something we already know it is.

I believe quite strongly that it's not possible to fool me, that's why I want to see you try! I could use the education. I need to know that my tests aren't working on all data sets so I can upgrade them and help my clients produce even more fair products. Your program could enlighten me, so please, write it! And if I am enlightened, you may help the entire industry: I desparately want you to fool me, that's how strongly I believe in fairness.

As far as this specification:
>The autoplayer which you configure how to play (for easy access).

I don't want an autoplayer. Much better would be a command line argument that simply produces that many lines of CSV output corresponding to game play. I would prefer it to compile in Ubuntu, but I have access to other Linux environments if needed. If you are only able to do this in PHP because you don't know other languages, I will accept a PHP product, as long as it works from the command line in Linux.

Your challenge is to use the credentials you have repeatedly touted to create a program that meets the specifications of a PARS sheet in terms of player interaction and does what you say it is possible to do. You started this thread by saying "this is how you make it" and then provided pseudo-code. So you claim to know how to do it. So do it.

Short of producing the code, I'm not sure there's much more to discuss.

Best regards,

Eliot

 

[4 of a kind]

Short of producing the code, I'm not sure there's much more to discuss.
Best regards,
Eliot

Give it a go Kimss. You sure sound like you understand all this gibberish. If you need motivation, how about becoming my new hero for one?

 

[4 of a kind]

Eliot,
I got this info off your website, and I'm not sure if I understand this correctly. You state additional wages are not considered such has a double down in BLACKJACK, or like in LET IT RIDE, where you make the initial bet with the option to add two more of the same bets during the same hand, only the initial bet is counted.

My question is, what would stop the online casino from rigging the additional add on bets outcome? If I lost $75.00 in a double split during a $25.00 starting hand of BJ, your saying you only record a $25.00 loss. If I start a hand of Let it Ride with $100.00 dollars, and flop 3 to the flush and raise, then next card is 4 to the flush, raise again and lose a total of $300.00 dollars, again you only record $100.00 dollars being lost. I understand players can do all kinds of crazy additional senseless bets, but an experienced gambler knows exactly how to play to gain their best possible odds.

So when you do these tests you never double on eleven or split 8's in BJ against a dealers 6, or never raise during a hand of Let It Ride? Is your test being done with only the initial bet never pressing another bet? If this is how it's done then maybe I should never make the additional bets online to achieve your confirmed payout percentages.

There have been many claims here that the double bet option during video poker along with the computer auto hold cards during video poker are rigged. Are these options of play offered by the casino ever considered for testing?



Quote From Website:
Amount Wagered by Player This is the amount of the initial wager by the player. Many games allow or require additional wagers to be placed after the initial wager. For example, Three Card Poker requires a Play wager for the hand to compete. Blackjack allows additional wagers for doubling or splitting. For purposes of computing the RTP, these additional wagers are not considered.

Total Amount Wagered by Players For the period over which the audit takes place for a specific game, each initial wager for each round by each player is tallied to give the total amount wagered by all players.

Amount Returned to Player Conceptually, this is the net amount the player wins (positive number) or loses (negative number) in a round.

For most table games, if the player wins the round then his original wager is returned. The amount wagered is not counted in the return, just the net amount won. If the player loses, then the amount returned is a negative number -- he loses the total amount wagered for the round, again this is the player's net result for the round. One way of thinking about the return for table games is that it equals (total amount returned) - (total amount wagered).

 

[mac-online]

Theory or not, I don't have a clue, it's way over my head, but the thread is interesting, so hang with it. It's a good read.

I agree. I have been on this forum a very short time. But I see most of the conversations here slantedntword this topic of Casino Cheating or conspiracy. Getting to the end of it would place the whole industry on a solid moral foundation. Proving that it could be done is a step in the right direction. But to nail the coffin you would need a monitoring system that would give the players a simple proof when they have doubts. Graphs and data on sections of play such as one player or bets over a certain amount would be needed. Then this info would need to be posted by a third party over partisipating casinos in a simple way.

In my opinion a proven honest casino would be popular. Once it was set up perhaps more casinos would partisipate.Eliot Jacobson's knowledge of systems is impressive and o is kimss, But it is something most of us can not follow. The monitored graphs would need to be easy to undertsand to non program oriented persons.

Keep it going guys.

 

[mac-online]

I believe quite strongly that it's not possible to fool me, that's why I want to see you try! I could use the education. I need to know that my tests aren't working on all data sets so I can upgrade them and help my clients produce even more fair products. Your program could enlighten me, so please, write it! And if I am enlightened, you may help the entire industry: I desparately want you to fool me, that's how strongly I believe in fairness.
Eliot

I believe you. But honesty needs to be displayed to the public in a simple format. This is the key to a well founded reputation. I feel I wear the same white hat as you. It looks good on people and is worth more (in monetary terms) than bad behavior at the end of the day. But it takes a certain type of intelagence to understand this concept. A one time proof in a forum is the first step forward. But results of on going play need to be publicly posted and undertsood.
This is my train of thought for the last few days.

 

[BlueSky]

Forget it. No one seems to give a toss about the point I'm trying to make here and I don't care enough about this to fight over it. If this is what you guys want to spend your time on fill your boots.

Thread moved back to 'Online Casinos'.

Thanks

 

[mannie2009]

To make my words a little easier to understand, let me write a logical example. This could be programming in any language, however I hope you have a basic understanding on how programming works - and this example would only be the low-end logic oversight.

Proove my logic wrong - how would you detect that this system was rigged?

Basic assumption of a slot:

function slot(){
  get_numbers();
  compute_spin();
  update_balance();
  update_graphics_with_numbers();
}

function get_numbers(){
  // Return random numbers
}
function compute_spin(){
  // Calculate if the spin is a win or not
}
function update_balance(){
  // new bank balance
}
function update_graphics_with_numbers(){
  // Updates the GUI, what we persieve as the game infront of us.
}

Also - note that the get_numbers(); function is most likely proprietary, and inside a company like MG this function
is most likely only known by a few. We will never know the story here, we will only know the outcome...

However we already know that all your history is stored by the playcheck data. If you ever asked CS for a dumpt of your data
you will see thay have a nice overview on lots of % payouts, deposits, manager bonus +++ at their disposal. So infact - the
system already have all the calculated stuff freely available at their need, so It is fairly easy to tweak the system
and still it is impossible to detect the rigged system.

Let's assume we tweak the get_numbers() to something like this:

function get_numbers(){
  //This function is really extended by the really_get_numers()
  // Remember this function is proprietary, so nobody knows what is happening
  // here. It might aswell be something as this.
  // New logic in place is:
  var userstate = compute_play_mode(); // Three states: default, loser and winner
  if(userstate == winner)
    var maxwin = compute_winner_max_win();

  if(userstate==default)
    return really_get_numers();
    
  var rnd = really_get_numers();
  var win = calculate_winX_compared_to_bet_size();

  if(userstate==winner AND win >= maxwin){
    return really_get_numers();    
  } else if(userstate==loser  AND !win){
    return really_get_numers(); 
  } else {
    return rnd;
  }
}
function compute_play_mode(){
  // Poll earlier playing data and descide if we have a winner or a loser
  // at the moment. This would be a complicated part of the system with
  // alot of weighted triggers depending on this and that. However the
  // general idea is here.
}
function compute_winner_max_win(){
  // Calculate, depending on previous function what wins we will ignore if
  // they would occure.
}

function really_get_numers(){
  // Return random numbers
}

This would be perfect for audit, peferct for all since all numbers are 100% random in the players end.
However you clearly see that the system is rigged, and the casino assures steady players getting more luck when
losing and harder time when winning! In the end a quicker way to meet expected 95%.

Surly if compute_play_mode() results were based on passed performances
the auditors would stamp on this.

If your having a bad streak your previous history should not be crossed checked by the software. Although this may be good for the player as the system may give him better odds of winning.

Think about the opposite, if the player is doing well, would the logic dull down the odds of winning further. Win or lose it should be calculated in a random fashion.

Although I'm not saying your wrong in the slighest it's jusy my view.

Who knows how the logic is written, I for one would love to know

Mannie

 

[thelawnet]

I believe quite strongly that it's not possible to fool me, that's why I want to see you try! I could use the education. I need to know that my tests aren't working on all data sets so I can upgrade them and help my clients produce even more fair products. Your program could enlighten me, so please, write it! And if I am enlightened, you may help the entire industry: I desparately want you to fool me, that's how strongly I believe in fairness.

In point of fact, one of your clients did in the past release a cheating game to its users. (Testing was at the time done by Michael Shackleford)

While I have confidence in the validity of your statistical tests, and generally speaking in online gaming, I do not believe that most casinos are subject to external tests as stringent as those you are describing.

Moreover, as online gaming is essentially unregulated there is nothing stopping an online casino doing what English Harbour did, and releasing an untested or indeed rigged game. In comparison with the status of a financial auditor auditing a company in any developed country, services like yours exist not so much to audit, but to test whatever data the casino chooses to release to you.

Again that's not to say that I believe that online casinos are cheating, but rather that the 'safe gaming' assurances that they are not are far from watertight.

You challenge the OP to provide data to prove his (rather ridiculous) scheme can defeat your tests, but why would he? As a casino operator it would be much simpler to switch the data he sent you. Why go the hard route?

I'm not criticising your service - I think if in the future the US came up with a credible system of regulation then your service would be much more useful - as legally enforced gaming testing, rather than the present scheme where casinos can individually decide what, if any, testing to do.

On the regulation issue - consider Wagerworks, owned by IGT, and regulated in Alderney, one of the more stringent jurisdictions: it has three rigged slot machines - see https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/threads/wagerworks-megajackpots-are-fraudulent-rigged.30090/. I haven't received a reply from Wagerworks about how and why they are doing this, but suffice to say that IMO in online gaming you just have to take things on trust.

Similarly, Boss ran a game for months that played differently from advertised: no audit caught that.

PS. I wrote this post watching the Millionaire ad at the top:

A candidate for

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.

I think....

 

[Eliot Jacobson]

My question is, what would stop the online casino from rigging the additional add on bets outcome?

The answer is that although the additional wagers for doubles and splits are not counted in the RTP, the data from those doubles and splits does appear in the log files and is audited for fairness alongside everything else.

The RTP is simple accounting; the way it is computed is:

RTP = (Total amount won) / (Total initial amount wagered).

A full audit looks at the actual results of all play; every outcome of every aspect of the game. RTP is one measure of fairness, obviously the RTP should be approximately (100% - House Edge) with perfect play by the player. For games with no strategy (like Keno and slots) this gives a fairly accurate picture, though the outcomes of the RNG are still audited in full. For blackjack and other strategy games, the audit procedure covers the strategic decisions.

There have been many claims here that the double bet option during video poker along with the computer auto hold cards during video poker are rigged. Are these options of play offered by the casino ever considered for testing?

I test for the double bet option fully every month at each casino I audit. This is very easy. For the computer auto-hold cards, that's a recommendation. Recommendations are not recorded in the logs. Only the final player actions are recorded. If the auto-suggestions are rigged, that would show in the audit of the complete log files for VP as a skewed distribution of player final hands and that would easily be picked up by the audit.

Forgive me if I don't respond to any more questions in this thread.

Best regards,

--Eliot

 

[chayton]

Kimss - your original post reminds me of what the "Start your own casino" bunch were doing. Or maybe still ARE doing.

The software is very good, with great control over the profit/winnings. It has the ability to change the winning % per game/table in real-time. Also you can withdraw the profit and limit player's winnings. Games are completely random, if the winning is within the limit. If the bet is causing winning over the set limit, the generator is generating another number until the winning is within the limit (or player loses).

 

[Janek12]

Why only Betvoyager has randomness control?

As regards the issue of whether the RNG-based software of online casinos cheats or not (note that I am not questioning the casinos but the software!), I have only one question: Why is randomness control only provided by Betvoyager and by no other casino software provider, as far as I know? WHY???!!!

 

[hippo925]

As regards the issue of whether the RNG-based software of online casinos cheats or not (note that I am not questioning the casinos but the software!), I have only one question: Why is randomness control only provided by Betvoyager and by no other casino software provider, as far as I know? WHY???!!!

Thank you for this post. That was an incredible read on the betvoyager website. What a great way to introduce more "randomness" to an online game. You can actually "change" the linear aspect of the random number generator! In other words... the random number generator picks a linear group of numbers and you can interupt that "set" and totally change the future outcomes! Very interesting!

 

[hippo925]

Thank you for this post. That was an incredible read on the betvoyager website. What a great way to introduce more "randomness" to an online game. You can actually "change" the linear aspect of the random number generator! In other words... the random number generator picks a linear group of numbers and you can interupt that "set" and totally change the future outcomes! Very interesting!

Now i know this is a fantastically interesting point, so maybe someone can explain it better than i have? I mean.... this is really interesting! I don't think i was able to explain it very well.....the implications....wow!