A Challenge to All Casinos

falderal

Dormant account
A very simple challenge to all Casino Managers:

Publish your odds tables for each and every slot machine.

I bet we'd all like to see exactly what our chances are of getting three cherries or hitting the big one. Come on, I dare you - let us in on this big secret.

A further challenge to Price Waterhouse Coopers:

Show us your math.

Come on, it's nothing any schoolteacher wouldn't ask for: how did you get your answer? Is bonus money really played through the same software and settings? Is an aggregate made of uncashable bonus winnings and real cash winnings? Come on - I double dare ya' !!

Accusations have flown for years folks, now's your chance to dispel the myths - or prove the conspiracy theories. Are you up to the challenge?
 

dickens1298

Dormant account
Why would they? If they could seduce players to part with their money with vague T&Cs, poor reputations, or incredibly high WRs, then I'm sure they believe that there is truly a sucker born every minute. And guess what - many players are proving them true.

falderal said:
A very simple challenge to all Casino Managers:

Publish your odds tables for each and every slot machine.

I bet we'd all like to see exactly what our chances are of getting three cherries or hitting the big one. Come on, I dare you - let us in on this big secret.

A further challenge to Price Waterhouse Coopers:

Show us your math.

Come on, it's nothing any schoolteacher wouldn't ask for: how did you get your answer? Is bonus money really played through the same software and settings? Is an aggregate made of uncashable bonus winnings and real cash winnings? Come on - I double dare ya' !!

Accusations have flown for years folks, now's your chance to dispel the myths - or prove the conspiracy theories. Are you up to the challenge?
 

largeeyes

Dormant account
You are asking them to do something a brick and mortar casino would not be expected to do. Why should they be held to higher standards than a highly regulated casino?
 

chalupa

Experienced Member
Actually brick & mortar casinos generally are regulated as to minimum payoffs for any slot machine.

And many B&M casinos do advertise special "99% payback" or similar machines, and are then required by law to back that up.

I think a smart marketing move by an online casino would be to do the same thing. Do away with gimmicky bonuses, and simply offer good games with good payouts and fast cashouts. Wow, what a concept.

An online casino should be able to provide good games very profitably compared to a B&M casino given their much lower overhead. They could lower their overhead even further by firing half their customer support staff after getting rid of bonuses and the associated confusing terms and conditions. :)

On the other hand, as dickens points outs... I would imagine the prevailing attitude right now is that if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
 

caruso

Banned User - repetitive violations of 1.6 - troll
falderal said:
A further challenge to Price Waterhouse Coopers:

Show us your math.
LOL, There is no math. PWC have been faking "payout reports" for online casinos for about 10 years now. This is one cosy relationship of five-figure back-handers you won't see disturbed any time soon.
 

Black21Jack

Dormant account
caruso said:
LOL, There is no math. PWC have been faking "payout reports" for online casinos for about 10 years now. This is one cosy relationship of five-figure back-handers you won't see disturbed any time soon.
I would like to see your solid evidence that this is happening. You must have documentation, as well as relationships with 'insiders' at the company who have been offering you information to be able to make such a claim. You should not be keeping this evidence secret, this is huge. You could bring about the downfall of a major corporation. I strongly suggest that you inform the relevant authorities of your discoveries.
 

gfkostas

Ex-Bonus Whore
Black21Jack is right.You should bust them up caruso.
 

falderal

Dormant account
.

Dickens1298: Why would they? If they could seduce players to part with their money with vague T&Cs, poor reputations, or incredibly high WRs, then I'm sure they believe that there is truly a sucker born every minute.
Casinos currently compete with each other for business. I'm offering a new arena. The suckers will likely ignore the odds in favor of big bonuses anyway.

largeeyes: Why should they be held to higher standards than a highly regulated casino?
In a free market, any business is held to the customer's standards, however fickle.

chalupa:I would imagine the prevailing attitude right now is that if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
It all depends on the definition of "broke". I suggest that although things are working fine for the casinos, there is, to my knowledge, no truly independant or governmental auditing system to ensure the accuracy of casino payout claims. Online casinos situate themselves in locations where such responsibilities do not exist, or are not enforced.

In general, I am only suggesting the disclosure of verifiable, non-prejudicial information. Nothing different than is required in cereal-box contests. If it's required for Toucan Sam and his Froot Loops, then why not Froot Loot and Microgaming?

You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.


You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.
 
Last edited:

chalupa

Experienced Member
If it's required for Toucan Sam and his Froot Loops, then why not Froot Loot and Microgaming?
Because Toucan Sam is watched by his uncle of the same name. :)
 

caruso

Banned User - repetitive violations of 1.6 - troll
PWC have been called on to produce evidence to back up their "verification" claims - if not the actual processes which lead to the reports, then at least the actual figures and the mathematical tests used in the processes. Apparently, this isn't on their agenda, or the wall of silence would have been broken at some point. Something would have been offered if there was anything to offer, particularly with the extra exposure offered by Ecogra. Yet we have nothing - because there is nothing.

I've no idea how much Microgaming, Boss or whoever else pay for this corrupt service; I guess the figure is greater than $9999 and under $100,000 per casino, so five-figures is a reasonable approximation - but that can only be speculation since noone from MG, Boss or PWC is about to tell me.
 

jetset

RIP Brian
CAG
caruso said:
PWC have been called on to produce evidence to back up their "verification" claims - if not the actual processes which lead to the reports, then at least the actual figures and the mathematical tests used in the processes. Apparently, this isn't on their agenda, or the wall of silence would have been broken at some point. Something would have been offered if there was anything to offer, particularly with the extra exposure offered by Ecogra. Yet we have nothing - because there is nothing.

I've no idea how much Microgaming, Boss or whoever else pay for this corrupt service; I guess the figure is greater than $9999 and under $100,000 per casino, so five-figures is a reasonable approximation - but that can only be speculation since noone from MG, Boss or PWC is about to tell me.
I was going to leave this ancient and contentious argument alone in the interest of forum peace, but once again these unbacked speculations by Caruso oblige me to point out that they are just that - unbacked speculation.

PwC is big enough to answer for themselves if they want to, so I'm not going to argue their stance that their processes are proprietary and specialised, for which they receive commercial reward. I too would like to see them come here and blow some of these radical assumptions out of the water, but it's their business and their decision on whether to do it.

And I don't believe Caruso has answered Black21Jack's relevant questions here:

QUOTE: I would like to see your solid evidence that this is happening. You must have documentation, as well as relationships with 'insiders' at the company who have been offering you information to be able to make such a claim. You should not be keeping this evidence secret, this is huge. You could bring about the downfall of a major corporation. I strongly suggest that you inform the relevant authorities of your discoveries. UNQUOTE
 

tim5ny

Quit Gambling
caruso said:
PWC have been called on to produce evidence to back up their "verification" claims - if not the actual processes which lead to the reports, then at least the actual figures and the mathematical tests used in the processes. Apparently, this isn't on their agenda, or the wall of silence would have been broken at some point. Something would have been offered if there was anything to offer, particularly with the extra exposure offered by Ecogra. Yet we have nothing - because there is nothing.

I've no idea how much Microgaming, Boss or whoever else pay for this corrupt service; I guess the figure is greater than $9999 and under $100,000 per casino, so five-figures is a reasonable approximation - but that can only be speculation since noone from MG, Boss or PWC is about to tell me.

Maybe it's time to close the casino accounts. Doesn't sound like you're having fun anymore.
 

GrandMaster

Ueber Meister
CAG
falderal said:
A very simple challenge to all Casino Managers:

Publish your odds tables for each and every slot machine.

I bet we'd all like to see exactly what our chances are of getting three cherries or hitting the big one. Come on, I dare you - let us in on this big secret.

A further challenge to Price Waterhouse Coopers:

Show us your math.

Come on, it's nothing any schoolteacher wouldn't ask for: how did you get your answer? Is bonus money really played through the same software and settings? Is an aggregate made of uncashable bonus winnings and real cash winnings? Come on - I double dare ya' !!

Accusations have flown for years folks, now's your chance to dispel the myths - or prove the conspiracy theories. Are you up to the challenge?
You can analyze slot machines yourself, see
You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.
.
 

Agamemnon

Dormant account
Well, for what it's worth, I just wrote to PWC and asked them to explain their guidelines.
Let's see if they get off their throne and respond.

BTW I think that issuing this challenge is a great idea. Obviously, any casino that chooses so can withhold the data, but stating the data would make me more inclined to frequent a particular casino.
Also, it would settle an issue to which I've never received a satisfactory answer:
Take any given MG slot, say CabinFever, does it pay set up by the same percentages at any MG casino, or do operators have leeway with setting percentages?
Meeting this challenge would answer this question.
 
Last edited:

winbig

Keep winning this amount.
Not to mention that if reputable casinos started posting this (and backing it up), others will either have to follow suit or lose (new user) business, plain and simple.
 

nafanny29

Dormant account
It would be really interesting to find out exactly PWC check and analyse (assuming they do actually check the data :eek: )

Even if it turns out that they check every little detail it still wont stop the "rigged V fair" arguments which I can see going on until the end of time :D
 

Agamemnon

Dormant account
GrandMaster said:
You can analyze slot machines yourself, see
You do not have permission to view link Log in or register now.
.
OK. However duplicating this method would only give the result for your session. I'm not sure what would qualify as a sufficiently large sample.
I've had huge sessions culminating in a large win. Can I draw conclusions off that?
In the case of some of the more popular MG slots you have literally thousands of players gambling at any given moment. How does one define his sample?
Am I missing something?
I'd love to get your feedback Grandmaster as I often consider your arithmetic input definitive.
 

knowlesm

Dormant account
Black21Jack said:
I would like to see your solid evidence that this is happening. You must have documentation, as well as relationships with 'insiders' at the company who have been offering you information to be able to make such a claim. You should not be keeping this evidence secret, this is huge. You could bring about the downfall of a major corporation. I strongly suggest that you inform the relevant authorities of your discoveries.
And please PM me before you do that so I can find a new job first.
 

falderal

Dormant account
.

If you're implying that you're an employee of PWC, knowlesm, then I'm sure many here have some valid questions for you.

I'll get it going with:

1) Why not publish the means your numbers are derived?

2) If the software uses a true random number generator, then why would there be a risk in publishing it?

3) What government body or organization audits the calculations and certifications made by PWC?
 
Top