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A Challenge to All Casinos

Discussion in 'Online Casino and Poker Complaints - old section' started by falderal, Apr 5, 2005.

    Apr 5, 2005
  1. falderal

    falderal Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Webmaster
    Location:
    Canada
    A very simple challenge to all Casino Managers:

    Publish your odds tables for each and every slot machine.

    I bet we'd all like to see exactly what our chances are of getting three cherries or hitting the big one. Come on, I dare you - let us in on this big secret.

    A further challenge to Price Waterhouse Coopers:

    Show us your math.

    Come on, it's nothing any schoolteacher wouldn't ask for: how did you get your answer? Is bonus money really played through the same software and settings? Is an aggregate made of uncashable bonus winnings and real cash winnings? Come on - I double dare ya' !!

    Accusations have flown for years folks, now's your chance to dispel the myths - or prove the conspiracy theories. Are you up to the challenge?
     
  2. Apr 5, 2005
  3. dickens1298

    dickens1298 Dormant account

    Location:
    LA, California
    Why would they? If they could seduce players to part with their money with vague T&Cs, poor reputations, or incredibly high WRs, then I'm sure they believe that there is truly a sucker born every minute. And guess what - many players are proving them true.

     
  4. Apr 5, 2005
  5. largeeyes

    largeeyes Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Engineer
    Location:
    North America
    You are asking them to do something a brick and mortar casino would not be expected to do. Why should they be held to higher standards than a highly regulated casino?
     
  6. Apr 5, 2005
  7. chalupa

    chalupa Experienced Member

    Occupation:
    Loaf
    Location:
    USA
    Actually brick & mortar casinos generally are regulated as to minimum payoffs for any slot machine.

    And many B&M casinos do advertise special "99% payback" or similar machines, and are then required by law to back that up.

    I think a smart marketing move by an online casino would be to do the same thing. Do away with gimmicky bonuses, and simply offer good games with good payouts and fast cashouts. Wow, what a concept.

    An online casino should be able to provide good games very profitably compared to a B&M casino given their much lower overhead. They could lower their overhead even further by firing half their customer support staff after getting rid of bonuses and the associated confusing terms and conditions. :)

    On the other hand, as dickens points outs... I would imagine the prevailing attitude right now is that if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
     
  8. Apr 5, 2005
  9. caruso

    caruso Banned User - repetitive violations of 1.6 - troll

    Occupation:
    Casino apologist
    Location:
    England
    LOL, There is no math. PWC have been faking "payout reports" for online casinos for about 10 years now. This is one cosy relationship of five-figure back-handers you won't see disturbed any time soon.
     
  10. Apr 5, 2005
  11. Black21Jack

    Black21Jack Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Courier driver
    Location:
    Toronto, Ontario, Canada
    I would like to see your solid evidence that this is happening. You must have documentation, as well as relationships with 'insiders' at the company who have been offering you information to be able to make such a claim. You should not be keeping this evidence secret, this is huge. You could bring about the downfall of a major corporation. I strongly suggest that you inform the relevant authorities of your discoveries.
     
  12. Apr 5, 2005
  13. gfkostas

    gfkostas Ex-Bonus Whore

    Occupation:
    IT
    Location:
    UK
    Black21Jack is right.You should bust them up caruso.
     
  14. Apr 5, 2005
  15. falderal

    falderal Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Webmaster
    Location:
    Canada
    .

    Casinos currently compete with each other for business. I'm offering a new arena. The suckers will likely ignore the odds in favor of big bonuses anyway.

    In a free market, any business is held to the customer's standards, however fickle.

    It all depends on the definition of "broke". I suggest that although things are working fine for the casinos, there is, to my knowledge, no truly independant or governmental auditing system to ensure the accuracy of casino payout claims. Online casinos situate themselves in locations where such responsibilities do not exist, or are not enforced.

    In general, I am only suggesting the disclosure of verifiable, non-prejudicial information. Nothing different than is required in cereal-box contests. If it's required for Toucan Sam and his Froot Loops, then why not Froot Loot and Microgaming?

    You must register/login in order to see the link.

    You must register/login in order to see the link.
     
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2005
  16. Apr 5, 2005
  17. chalupa

    chalupa Experienced Member

    Occupation:
    Loaf
    Location:
    USA
    Because Toucan Sam is watched by his uncle of the same name. :)
     
  18. Apr 5, 2005
  19. caruso

    caruso Banned User - repetitive violations of 1.6 - troll

    Occupation:
    Casino apologist
    Location:
    England
    PWC have been called on to produce evidence to back up their "verification" claims - if not the actual processes which lead to the reports, then at least the actual figures and the mathematical tests used in the processes. Apparently, this isn't on their agenda, or the wall of silence would have been broken at some point. Something would have been offered if there was anything to offer, particularly with the extra exposure offered by Ecogra. Yet we have nothing - because there is nothing.

    I've no idea how much Microgaming, Boss or whoever else pay for this corrupt service; I guess the figure is greater than $9999 and under $100,000 per casino, so five-figures is a reasonable approximation - but that can only be speculation since noone from MG, Boss or PWC is about to tell me.
     
  20. Apr 5, 2005
  21. jetset

    jetset Ueber Meister CAG

    Occupation:
    Senior Partner, InfoPowa News Service
    Location:
    Earth
    I was going to leave this ancient and contentious argument alone in the interest of forum peace, but once again these unbacked speculations by Caruso oblige me to point out that they are just that - unbacked speculation.

    PwC is big enough to answer for themselves if they want to, so I'm not going to argue their stance that their processes are proprietary and specialised, for which they receive commercial reward. I too would like to see them come here and blow some of these radical assumptions out of the water, but it's their business and their decision on whether to do it.

    And I don't believe Caruso has answered Black21Jack's relevant questions here:

    QUOTE: I would like to see your solid evidence that this is happening. You must have documentation, as well as relationships with 'insiders' at the company who have been offering you information to be able to make such a claim. You should not be keeping this evidence secret, this is huge. You could bring about the downfall of a major corporation. I strongly suggest that you inform the relevant authorities of your discoveries. UNQUOTE
     
  22. Apr 5, 2005
  23. tim5ny

    tim5ny Quit Gambling


    Maybe it's time to close the casino accounts. Doesn't sound like you're having fun anymore.
     
  24. Apr 5, 2005
  25. GrandMaster

    GrandMaster Ueber Meister CAG

    Occupation:
    Mathematician by day, online gambler by night.
    Location:
    UK
    You can analyze slot machines yourself, see You must register/login in order to see the link. .
     
  26. Apr 5, 2005
  27. Agamemnon

    Agamemnon Dormant account

    Well, for what it's worth, I just wrote to PWC and asked them to explain their guidelines.
    Let's see if they get off their throne and respond.

    BTW I think that issuing this challenge is a great idea. Obviously, any casino that chooses so can withhold the data, but stating the data would make me more inclined to frequent a particular casino.
    Also, it would settle an issue to which I've never received a satisfactory answer:
    Take any given MG slot, say CabinFever, does it pay set up by the same percentages at any MG casino, or do operators have leeway with setting percentages?
    Meeting this challenge would answer this question.
     
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2005
  28. Apr 5, 2005
  29. winbig

    winbig Keep winning this amount.

    Occupation:
    Bum
    Location:
    Pennsylvania
    Not to mention that if reputable casinos started posting this (and backing it up), others will either have to follow suit or lose (new user) business, plain and simple.
     
  30. Apr 5, 2005
  31. nafanny29

    nafanny29 Dormant account

    Occupation:
    financail adviser
    Location:
    London, England
    It would be really interesting to find out exactly PWC check and analyse (assuming they do actually check the data :eek: )

    Even if it turns out that they check every little detail it still wont stop the "rigged V fair" arguments which I can see going on until the end of time :D
     
  32. Apr 5, 2005
  33. Agamemnon

    Agamemnon Dormant account

    OK. However duplicating this method would only give the result for your session. I'm not sure what would qualify as a sufficiently large sample.
    I've had huge sessions culminating in a large win. Can I draw conclusions off that?
    In the case of some of the more popular MG slots you have literally thousands of players gambling at any given moment. How does one define his sample?
    Am I missing something?
    I'd love to get your feedback Grandmaster as I often consider your arithmetic input definitive.
     
  34. Apr 5, 2005
  35. Vesuvio

    Vesuvio Dormant account

    Location:
    UK
    Careful - remember employing support staff is one of the few 'social benefits' of on-line casinos ;)

    http://www.casinomeister.com/forums/showthread.php?p=56923#post56923
     
  36. Apr 6, 2005
  37. knowlesm

    knowlesm Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Actuary
    Location:
    Chicago
    And please PM me before you do that so I can find a new job first.
     
  38. Apr 7, 2005
  39. falderal

    falderal Dormant account

    Occupation:
    Webmaster
    Location:
    Canada
    .

    If you're implying that you're an employee of PWC, knowlesm, then I'm sure many here have some valid questions for you.

    I'll get it going with:

    1) Why not publish the means your numbers are derived?

    2) If the software uses a true random number generator, then why would there be a risk in publishing it?

    3) What government body or organization audits the calculations and certifications made by PWC?
     

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