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Bonus Complaint 888 locks my account after wagering. deposit returned 1200 profit gone!

Discussion in 'Casino Complaints - Bonus Issues' started by Droste01, Aug 27, 2012.

    Aug 27, 2012
  1. Droste01

    Droste01 Dormant account PABnononaccred

    Occupation:
    working in IT
    Location:
    Nijmegen
    hi everyone,

    this is my first post here, found this forum after googling for my problems with 888.com.

    I signed up and got the 140 euro bonus after making a deposit. I mostly play Blackjack and not really read the T&C very carefull. Got lucky on BJ but after reading the T&C again saw that BJ doesn't count that much for the wagering requirement... (only like 5% i think?)

    So i continued to wager on slots and was so lucky to don't loose that much on the slots, even made a gain on it! Very lucky me:notworthy:notworthy

    After finishing my wagering i uploaded my Drivers licence to pre-approve my account for withdrawal. Documents got approved by email and couple of days later tried to login to cashout my balance. To my surprise my account was temporarily locked!
    This was on 14th of august, immediately sent an email but got no response (they have 72 hours time frame to respond). Got no response, sent a new email on 21th of August, also no reply at all.

    Today i sent another email asking what is going on and asked: "Where are you licensed so i can file an complaint regarding your way of working?"

    Suddenly i have a reply within 2 hours saying this: (why can i they reply suddenly within 2 hours....?? because i ask where i can file an complaint??)
    "We have taken the decision to end your membership with ourselves.

    This decision was taken after a detailed review of your game play. Our review revealed that you are employing a gaming strategy in order to maximize the return from your game play, and the amount of bonuses you receive. This is against our Terms and Conditions, and we will be revoking your membership due to this.

    As a gesture of goodwill due to the delay in responding to you regarding the status of your account, we have now processed a withdrawal of your deposited amount of 140EUR back to your Neteller account."

    What can i do? I haven't broken any rule, and what kind of strategie are they talking about.

    Should i contact 888.com again or anything else?
     
  2. Aug 27, 2012
  3. IanO

    IanO Regular Human

    Occupation:
    Marketing and promotions
    Location:
    Ireland.
    Try the Rep.

    Hi Droste01,

    The best place to start would be a PM to the casino rep for 888, who you can find here: http://www.casinomeister.com/forums/members/rachel888.html

    Send her a PM and then give her a couple of days to look into your issue and respond then go from there.

    Welcome to Casinomeister. :)
     
    2 people like this.
  4. Aug 27, 2012
  5. Droste01

    Droste01 Dormant account PABnononaccred

    Occupation:
    working in IT
    Location:
    Nijmegen
    Thanks for that! sent a message to her, but i also hasn't been on this forum since 14th august... (My first email also was on 14th august, but probably just coincedence...)
     
  6. Aug 27, 2012
  7. IanO

    IanO Regular Human

    Occupation:
    Marketing and promotions
    Location:
    Ireland.
    I would not worry too much about that. Most reps like myself will get an alert when a message is PM'd to us here. Plus, I occasionally drop by briefly without logging in and Rachel may have done the same. She's an active rep so she'll be stopping by before long I'm sure.
     
    1 person likes this.
  8. Aug 27, 2012
  9. vinylweatherman

    vinylweatherman You type well loads CAG MM

    Occupation:
    STILL At Leisure
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    This looks like a "spirit of the bonus" confiscation, so a PAB is well worth pursuing. Cassava have a history of doing this, even though no terms were actually broken. To defend their decision, they will need to demonstrate that you broke a clear term, such as betting more than an allowed maximum when playing on a bonus.

    If you bet your entire bankroll on the first hand, you probably have broken such a max bet term - you will have to show that no such term exists.
     
  10. Aug 27, 2012
  11. rainmaker

    rainmaker I'm not a penguin CAG webmeister

    Occupation:
    -
    Location:
    -

    Yeah, Rachel is very helpful and a great rep for 888. I am sure that she will take a look at this case quite quickly.

    OP: 888 was accredited on Casinomeister only a few weeks before they were removed. I think that many players around the world are enjoying playing at 888, but I personally would not play there as they have a tendency to mess things up. I would advise you to check out the accredited section next time you want to find a new favorite casino.

    But again...Rachel is great :D
     
  12. Aug 27, 2012
  13. Droste01

    Droste01 Dormant account PABnononaccred

    Occupation:
    working in IT
    Location:
    Nijmegen
    already got a reply from Rachel! Nice quick response. Gave her all the details and she will be look into it.

    Regarding the max betsize:
    - i think i betted 100 hands or something on BJ
    - but there is nothing mentioned about max betsize in the casino.
    - if there is no mention of it how should you know what "the good spirit of the bonus" is. That can be anything from betting max 0,1 or playing a wrong strategy on blackjack... Or you need to whistle when you are behind the game and they want a record of that... Can be anything...
    - if there a bet limits, they should implement it in the software and not in the Terms & Conditions... I work in the IT and it's so easy to make a max betsize when a bonus is involved...

    well have to wait on the outcome, but online casinos......:confused::confused::eek:
     
  14. Aug 29, 2012
  15. Droste01

    Droste01 Dormant account PABnononaccred

    Occupation:
    working in IT
    Location:
    Nijmegen
    Rachel can't be of any help.....

    "They have advised though that they are unable to consider reopening your account due to the patterns of game play that you have exhibited - but they have refunded your initial deposit so that you have not lost any of your own money through your account. Unfortunately they are not going to reconsider and continue with your account membership. This is due to the gaming strategies that they reviewed on your account, with regards to the wagering of the initial welcome bonus, which is considered a pattern of abuse.
    "

    what a complete nonsense, what is the pattern of game play that is NOT allowed and why arent' these mentioned in their T&C if they are NOT allowed.

    Also asked the CS team of 888 to a contact person or their regulator, they just ignore that question.

    Going to contact Gribraltar gaming commision... or should i first PAB?

    How is it possible that online casinos get away with this, and i may be "happy" that i not have lost any of my own money....

    Never play at 888.com, shame on you 888...
     
  16. Aug 29, 2012
  17. Nifty29

    Nifty29 Dormant account

    Occupation:
    PAID CASINO SHILL
    Location:
    Turn right, then right. then right again
    The terms state:

    In other words, if they don't want to pay you, they just won't.

    It's a horrible term, but you accepted the terms when you deposited, so you have nobody to blame but yourself.

    If you don't want to be bound by such terms, be more careful about where you play.

    My feeling is that you put in some big BJ bets to build your bankroll and play the rest off on slots. Nothing illegal about that, but just about every casino will ban you as a result....but I'm sure you know that, as this isn't something a newb does.
     
  18. Aug 29, 2012
  19. vinylweatherman

    vinylweatherman You type well loads CAG MM

    Occupation:
    STILL At Leisure
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    A classic "spirit of the bonus" confiscation. Forget their regulator, use the PAB here. If this is confirmed as merely a "spirit of the bonus" thing, rather than you having violated any terms, or made any misrepresentations, this case could contribute to them being the subject of a "casino warning".

    Had you broken a term, they would have said so, and you would be able to see from your play which term this was.

    The 888 stable have a long history of this bullshit, but recently decided to turn over a new leaf and become accredited here. This didn't last as they were not prepared to stop spamming players with offers that were misleading, and which in some cases lured players into breaking "spirit of the bonus" terms by taking them up.

    They are a very big group, and seem to view themselves as "above the law", walking out rather than adhere to standards of behaviour that become too inconvenient for them to follow. They remain big by having a very aggressive marketing strategy that yields a steady supply of new players. Coupled with their "spirit of the bonus" confiscations, it keeps the money rolling in. It would be a simple matter for them to use a "strictly slots only" welcome bonus, but this would make it much harder to declare play as "abusive" since there is no real slot strategy as there is with Blackjack.

    You could ask for a copy of your play history, and if you don't want to PAB for the winnings (they won't take you back in any case), you can post it here so that we can see on what basis they feel your play violates their "spirit code".

    BTW, when they became accredited, there was a bit of an outcry from some members who couldn't believe this notorious outfit had somehow changed their ways enough to warrant it. These same members have been vindicated.

    It rather looks like accreditation was a marketing stunt with no real commitment to change for the long term. If you lose and play "stupidly" you will be treated well, and paid without fuss. However, the same can be said of most rogue outfits, where players only find out who they are really dealing with the day they have that great run of luck and withdraw a considerable sum that the operator thinks will not be coming back to them.
     
    6 people like this.
  20. Aug 30, 2012
  21. KasinoKing

    KasinoKing WebMeister & Slotaholic.. CAG MM PABnonaccred webmeister

    Occupation:
    House-Husband and Casino Advisor
    Location:
    Bexhill on sea, England
    If it were me - I would definitely PAB first.
    The Gaming Commission might be able to help - but I'm pretty sure it would take MUCH longer than the PAB process.

    KK
     
  22. Aug 30, 2012
  23. vinylweatherman

    vinylweatherman You type well loads CAG MM

    Occupation:
    STILL At Leisure
    Location:
    United Kingdom
    They side with the casino when the claim is "the spirit of the bonus has been violated", hence the player just waits a long time before they too get violated.

    A PAB may be quicker, provided Max doesn't have too big a backlog, and we all know what Bryan thinks of casinos that void winnings for "abusing the spirit of the bonus".
     
    1 person likes this.
  24. Aug 31, 2012
  25. Droste01

    Droste01 Dormant account PABnononaccred

    Occupation:
    working in IT
    Location:
    Nijmegen
    thanks for the suggestion, filed a PAB. Hope it works out otherwise will contact GRA!
     
  26. Sep 1, 2012
  27. msblast

    msblast Banned User - violation of <a href="http://www.cas PABnononaccred PABnoaccred

    Occupation:
    work on cemetery
    Location:
    germany-netherlands-border
    grab a 50bmg rifle and visit them personally
     
  28. Sep 1, 2012
  29. ThePOGG

    ThePOGG Meister Member webmeister

    Occupation:
    Casino Affiliate
    Location:
    UK
    A very large number of casinos have similar terms - in fact 'spirit of the bonus' terms are just about universal. The difference between a reputable venue and a rogue venue is that a reputable venue will pay the winnings if no specific term has been broken, then either bonus bar the player or lock their account. A rogue venue will use this rule to justify 'lose but can't win situations' where they'd be happy to keep your funds if you lose, but won't pay if you win.

    The rule is technically there and the player has technically agreed to it, but as the playing party in this instance couldn't know in advance what would cause this rule to be enforced it would not be technically legally enforcable in any contractual situation in the majority of western legal systems. Contract law simply doesn't allow for such vague and one-sided terms.

    That said, it does sound on the surface like the player was using the classic sticky up the balance before clearing the wagering requirent. However, if 888 don't like this style of play they need to add a clearly defined max bet rule rather than enforcing vague and unfair terms.
     
    4 people like this.
  30. Sep 2, 2012
  31. Azriel47

    Azriel47 Banned User - Multiple forum accounts - flaming -

    Occupation:
    I.T Technician
    Location:
    Wellington
    Sounds Typical Confiscate the winnings lock the account pffft ...about to open up on one myself stay on their case sounds like you got royally done there.
     
  32. Sep 3, 2012
  33. Droste01

    Droste01 Dormant account PABnononaccred

    Occupation:
    working in IT
    Location:
    Nijmegen
    filed a PAB using the webform, but did not get any confirmation by email.

    Is this normal? Or should i file again?
     
  34. Sep 3, 2012
  35. Nifty29

    Nifty29 Dormant account

    Occupation:
    PAID CASINO SHILL
    Location:
    Turn right, then right. then right again
    What email provider did you use?
     
  36. Sep 3, 2012
  37. maxd

    maxd Complaints (PAB) Manager Staff Member

    Occupation:
    The PAB Guy
    Location:
    Saltirelandia
    It's my belief that this is not true, or at least not the whole truth. Rachel was the primary force behind the 888 Accreditation proposal and I am convinced that her efforts were genuine. We told her early on what would be required of 888 and she thought she could get her management people on-side. Unfortunately that didn't happen so the whole effort was doomed. Senior 888 management may have had a cynical view of the Accreditation process, I am quite certain Rachel did not. The failure was their doing, not hers.

    PAB received. I'll be contacting you via email shortly.
     
    5 people like this.
  38. Dec 18, 2012
  39. kvbrock82

    kvbrock82 Dormant account

    Occupation:
    N/A
    Location:
    Malta
    Have you been through the bonus abuse terms and conditions? Are there any at all? :confused:

    That strategy is one used by advanced players but generally frowned upon by casinos. In fact, a casino that doesnt cover itself by clearly outlining this particular strategy as a method of abusive play is opening itself up to a ton of bonus abuse.

    If you start wagering on a game like blackjack, where using perfect strategy could narrow the margin down to virtually evens, and by staking a large hand of say close to 100% of the player's bankroll and winning, the player could easily put themselves into positive expectancy, meaning a guaranteed cashout using the free funds given by the casino. The reason why an aggressive gameweight will be placed on a game like blackjack is because of its minuscule casino margin, forcing the player through a reasonable amount of volume in order for the margin to begin to take effect. If the player decides to stake most of their bankroll and wins on the low margin game, and then proceeds to play a higher casino margin game like slots with a 100% game weight, the player will then be able to turn over the bonus easily once he brings down his average hand value drastically to as close to perfect RTP as he can.

    Heres an example:

    Deposit 500, get 500 bonus at a 60x bonus wagering requirement.
    Gameweights set are 2% for Blackjack and 100% for slots.
    Total wagering requirement = 500x60 = 30,000

    Player stakes ALL his bankroll including bonus on BJ, winning. Therefore, the player now has 2000 bankroll. In order to clear the bonus wagering, he will have to wager the 30,000 wagering requirement at a 2% gameweight, meaning he has to wager 1,500,000 if he continues on the same game(Blackjack). If the player continues upon this route, he has to take into consideration the fact that single deck blackjack casino margin is approx 0.13% using perfect strategy, meaning he is EXPECTED to lose 1,950 of that 1,500,000(0.13% of 1,500,000 = 1,950) he is being forced to wager. Therefore, he is expected to be out of bankroll should he even come close to completing the mindnumbing volume to be wagered. Switching to slots at this stage(now that he has doubled his bankroll to 2000) with a 100% gameweight will leave him with almost only 30,000 to be wagered, meaning if he lowers his hand value to say €1 in order to try and hit optimal RTP%, and taking for example a 5% casino margin slot game, he should end the process losing about 5% of the 30,000 he has to wager for the bonus, which is 1500, putting him into a mathematical positive expectancy as he is profiting €450 due to using the free funds the casino provided the player to extend his gameplay in a way that guarantees a cashout simply through manipulative use of calculated wagering of bonus funds.

    It wouldnt be a problem if the player switched to a higher casino margin game(including 100% game weight) if the player decided to maintain his very risky €1000 per hand gameplay on the higher margin games, but bringing his hand value down drastically in order to aim for perfect RTP is what would get him in hot water.

    Really, it all comes down to whether the casino has stated that this tactic is not allowed to be employed when using the bonus funds provided!
     

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