"888 has opened you an account..."

rainmaker

I'm not a penguin
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Dec 28, 2010
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I have not used 888.com in years, but I do have an account there.

Today I got another promotion mail from 888. They have actually opened an account for me at another casino, Casino-On-Net.com.



Spam888.JPG
 

rainmaker

I'm not a penguin
Joined
Dec 28, 2010
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I was curious about the account that they have opened for me at another casino, so I downloaded Casino-on-Net.

And yes, the account is in my name with my personal information. Ready to be used for deposits and play.

For information, 888.com is the casino listed in the accredited section. But they have many "in-house brands such as i) 888, (ii) Casino-on-Net, (iii) Pacific Poker, (iv) 888sport, (v) 888ladies, (vi) 888games, (vii) 888casino, (viii) 888poker, (ix) 888pachinko and (x) Reef Club Casino"

Casino-On-Net and most of the "in-house-brands" are not accredited on Casinomeister.

So be aware. If you open an account at the accredited 888.com casino, then they may open accounts at other casinos in your name without your permission.

My opinion is that this is unacceptable for an accredited casino.
 
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1366613

Senior Member
Joined
May 29, 2008
Location
A
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My opinion is that this is unacceptable for an accredited casino.
:eek::eek2:

Im with you that is unacceptable :eek:. And they create another account for you. I had an account at 888, but i closed it. And i didnt received any email about new account.
 

Rachel888

Dormant account
Joined
Oct 5, 2010
Location
Herzliyah, Tel Aviv, Israel, Israel
Thanks Rainmaker,

This is an issue that has been resolved in the past, we do cross market amongst our in house brands. We are not giving your personal details to anyone outside of 888 or it's in house brands.

If you were to receive an email saying that we had opened an account for you at a casino that has no relation to us, I would then worry.

So I thank you for your concern about sharing details, but we have been very open about the fact that we share details amongst our in house brands such as Casino On Net.

If you don't want the account or the free money in it you are free to close it.

Regards,
Rachel
 

chuchu59

gambling addict
PABnonaccred
CAG
PABinit
Joined
Sep 26, 2004
Location
SOMEWHERE IN ASIA
Thanks Rainmaker,

This is an issue that has been resolved in the past, we do cross market amongst our in house brands. We are not giving your personal details to anyone outside of 888 or it's in house brands.

If you were to receive an email saying that we had opened an account for you at a casino that has no relation to us, I would then worry.

So I thank you for your concern about sharing details, but we have been very open about the fact that we share details amongst our in house brands such as Casino On Net.

If you don't want the account or the free money in it you are free to close it.

Regards,
Rachel

I would not expect this sort of reply from an accredited group. It seems dont really understand Rainmaker's concern judging by your tone.
 

maxd

PAB (Complaints) Manager
Staff member
Joined
Jan 20, 2004
Location
Saltirelandia
My opinion is that this is unacceptable for an accredited casino.

FWIW, Bryan has been flagged on this. I expect he will weigh in as soon as he's back online and up to speed (returning from holidays).
 

vinylweatherman

You type well loads
Joined
Oct 14, 2004
Location
United Kingdom
Thanks Rainmaker,

This is an issue that has been resolved in the past, we do cross market amongst our in house brands. We are not giving your personal details to anyone outside of 888 or it's in house brands.

If you were to receive an email saying that we had opened an account for you at a casino that has no relation to us, I would then worry.

So I thank you for your concern about sharing details, but we have been very open about the fact that we share details amongst our in house brands such as Casino On Net.

If you don't want the account or the free money in it you are free to close it.

Regards,
Rachel

This is EXACTLY the kind of thing that gets players into trouble with the white label brands, so the main brand should NOT be legitimising this kind of behaviour in this way. Doing this teaches players that they are not only allowed to have accounts at as many Cassava powered casinos as they want, but that this is SO desirable a behaviour that the casinos don't just wait for players to do it, they do it FOR the players, and then tell them afterwards. The email also more or less rams the welcome bonus down the recipients throat, which is the REAL issue with the white label casinos, where it is players that claim a bonus at more than one white label that get pretty harsh treatment, even though AGAIN it is cross marketing, but among the white label brands, that causes the problem.


The PROPER way for an accredited casino to do this is to send an invite to the player, and let them make up their own mind as to whether to take it up and register their own account. If players are now reluctant to take up cross marketing offers, 888 only have themselves to blame for how they treated players in the past who were lead by such cross marketing into situations where they had winnings confiscated by breaking "unwritten rules" about taking up welcome bonuses at sister casinos.
 

rainmaker

I'm not a penguin
Joined
Dec 28, 2010
Location
-
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Yes chuchu59, I was really surprised to se the arrogant tone in the 888 reps reply. They clearly do not understand the issue here. This is of course not only about "sharing details".

We know that they cross promote. And that is OK within certain limits. But here they have not only shared details for promotional purposes, they have even used these personal details to create an account at another casino without my knowledge and consent. And that is my concern, not that they have shared details between in-house brands.


.
 
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chuchu59

gambling addict
PABnonaccred
CAG
PABinit
Joined
Sep 26, 2004
Location
SOMEWHERE IN ASIA
.

Yes chuchu59, I was really surprised to se the arrogant tone in the 888 reps reply. They clearly do not understand the issue here. This is of course not only about "sharing details".

.

Yes its really disgusting as they seem to be saying you should be grateful to them for gifting you free money.
 

rainmaker

I'm not a penguin
Joined
Dec 28, 2010
Location
-
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Maybe I will recieve another promotion mail from them again soon saying:



Congratulations! We are now forcing you to play even more!

We have opened another two new accounts in your name at Reef Club Casino and 888poker.com. You now have a total of 4 accounts in 4 different 888 casinos. We do not know if you play poker. But as mentioned, a brand new poker account is also ready for you.

Do you feel a bit feminine sometimes? Not a problem! Next week we will open a brand new account at 888ladies.com for you, so stay tuned!

conditions: by reading this e-mail, you are agreeing that we, the company can do whatever we want



:lolup:
 

Repro

Dormant account
PABnonaccred
PABnononaccred
Joined
Sep 15, 2010
Location
Netherlands
IMO this is bizar and completely unacceptable. This is exactly one of the things why i would never signup at those guys.
 

LHofsdal

Ueber Meister
MM
Joined
Jan 9, 2010
Location
NY
What in the world?

Are you kidding me? It is one thing to share information with in house casinos. It is another thing to OPEN a brand new casino account WITHOUT a players permission.

This is totally unacceptable and the replay from the rep is also. It seems they are just trying to brush it under the carpet, so to speak. What gives them the right to open an account at a casino that is in house without permission. And from an accredited casino, this is soooooooooooo wrong on so many levels. Then have the reps says if you don't want the account just close it. It should not have been opened in the first place!!!

Come to think of it, Villento brands have done the same thing with Vegas2web. I never signed up with them and when Villento pulled out of the US market, I got e-mails from Vegas2web and my account was already set up. I sent off an e-mail stating how upset I was to have all my information sent to a place I did not know and have an account set up without my permission. Asked for my account to be closed. It took almost a month to get it and closed and I still get e-mails almost on a daily basis from them.

Thanks for bringing this to our attention Rainmaker, this is one place I will always avoid now if it gaming because legal in the US!

LH
 

Rachel888

Dormant account
Joined
Oct 5, 2010
Location
Herzliyah, Tel Aviv, Israel, Israel
Hi everyone,

I do apologize for what came off as arrogant, and now that I am re-reading what I wrote it was a bit harsh.

You know that I have always been helpful, and yes 888 has had issues in the past and have been learning from past mistakes.

I did bring up this issue and it will be discussed further, in no way do we want our players to feel violated.

I thank you all for your input it has been taken into consideration, as I have said before your continued feedback is always important.

Regards,
Rachel
 

GrandMaster

Dormant account
Joined
Jan 21, 2004
Location
UK
I can see a massive can of worms here. What happens if the customer does not read this e-mail or does not take up the offer and forgets about this account, then opens a new account? Will he be banned for having multiple accounts and have his money confiscated?
 

vinylweatherman

You type well loads
Joined
Oct 14, 2004
Location
United Kingdom
I can see a massive can of worms here. What happens if the customer does not read this e-mail or does not take up the offer and forgets about this account, then opens a new account? Will he be banned for having multiple accounts and have his money confiscated?

It is very likely that this kind of email will end up in spam filters, and even if spotted there, the recipient will discard it based on the subject line alone. If common sense prevails, it should not be a problem, but it WILL show on the records as a duplicate account, and the player will be asked to "explain" this other, unused account if any issues arise in the future that leads to them being scrutinised by security. Naturally, the player will know nothing about this other account, and will say so, BUT security will then assume that he is lying, as the records are clear, and thus the player will be assumed to be lying about everything else said in their defence.

There are already threads about players who are accused of having multiple accounts, but where only one has been "active". Often the story is that a "bug" lead them to believe the registration failed, so they simply tried again later (in the same way that the infamous "Neteller timeout" bug generates the "your deposit was declined, try again later", when infact the deposit WORKED, but a casino side bug caused the final step to fail).
Other duplicate accounts can be traced to casinos opening accounts on behalf of a player, but at the time being unwanted by the player and forgotten about.

This means that such players get lumped in with the fraudsters who deliberately create a string of accounts until they get one where the "freebie" generates a withdrawable win.


The Villento case was worse, because in that instance they DID sell on the players to a third party (another operator prepared to take US players), who used the information to open accounts for the player, rather than simply send them an invite. This also screwed AFFILIATES who could have made commissions by sending these Microgaming refugees to alternative casinos.

Whilst other operators do just the same, it is not expected that an ACCREDITED operator will do something unpopular with experienced players just because "others do it".

888 already have a battle to convince many that they deserve accreditation, as the move was NOT universally popular when it was announced, with a few thinking Bryan had made a HUGE mistake. 888 need to demonstrate that things really HAVE changed, and that despite the past, they will behave as expected for an accredited operator, even if doing so costs them business.
 

rainmaker

I'm not a penguin
Joined
Dec 28, 2010
Location
-
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Thanks for your reply Rachel. I think the members on this forum knows that you as a rep are usually very helpfull and skilled. It is great to see that you will take a closer look into this issue. I hope you will update us about your conclusion.

You know, my intention with this thread was only to "help" you get better (and to alert the players obviously). I do not start a thread like this only because I need something to bitch about. This case is in my opinion quite clear. And all I expect from this "complaint" is that 888 changes its practice. And if you do, then case closed and your casino have learned something new about how not to promote. I do not even use your casino, so I obviously do not have a personal agenda here. So yes, I was a bit surprised to see your first reply.


GrandMaster: Yes, I think you have a valid point. The only reason why I opened this e-mail was because I first noticed another e-mail from 888 with the title "*my name*, your password is enclosed". I thought "what the hell, I have not asked for any new passwords from 888". I opened the password e-mail and became of course even more confused (until I read the other e-mail). So yes, quite many will probably not even know that 888 has opened an account for them.
 

quber

Senior Member
Joined
Feb 25, 2004
Location
Europe
Absolutely ridiculous.

I would hope the new account is flagged internally as being opened by the company and not the player so any disputes in the future regarding bonuses etc. can be seen to not be the players fault.

If a player self excludes on his original account would the new account also be closed?

if these casinos are truly run by the same company then why not let the same account be used for both? this stops any dual account problems and also lets the player manage their bankroll better, but of course letting a player manage their bankroll better could mean less profits. but then that would be rogueish wouldn't it?
 

ksech

Dormant account
Joined
Jul 27, 2007
Location
Here
Is this the same group where if you open an account with one casino in the group you can't open an account with the other casinos? (I may be confusing this with another casino group...)

Also, there have been other casino groups who have done this in the past. Intertops did this when they went from green to red. They moved MG players to Royal Joker. And then when Royal Joker dissolved they moved players to the MG clones.
 

rainmaker

I'm not a penguin
Joined
Dec 28, 2010
Location
-
Is this the same group where if you open an account with one casino in the group you can't open an account with the other casinos? (I may be confusing this with another casino group...)

Also, there have been other casino groups who have done this in the past. Intertops did this when they went from green to red. They moved MG players to Royal Joker. And then when Royal Joker dissolved they moved players to the MG clones.

Almost correct ksech :). You can open an account at several of their casinos but you are only entitled to one welcome bonus within the group (unless the Company decides otherwise at its absolute discretion).

As you can see on the promotion e-mail above, they offer me a welcome bonus at Casino-on-Net. Since I have recieved this e-mail then the Company decides otherwise at its absolute discretion and I am entitled to a second welcome bonus within the group. If I had joined Casino-On-Net without receiving this "invitation", then I would not have been entitled to a welcome bonus (since I have accepted one welcome bonus at 888.com years ago) and they could have confiscated my winnings if I had claimed a bonus.

This has been discussed on the forum before they got accredited. My view on this has always been that this practice is confusing and misleading for an average player.
 

ksech

Dormant account
Joined
Jul 27, 2007
Location
Here
Then the casino is "inviting" players to commit fraud albeit unopened emails players think are spam. As VWM and Grandmaster have pointed out, if a player simply disregards these emails, and at a latter date decides they wish to try one of these casinos...opens an account under a different user name, here is where the problems begin. They play, win, go to cash out and now are accused of having multiple accounts simply because the CASINO opened an account unbeknownst to them. And how is the player going to be able to prove this? Do players keep their spam emails? I don't, as I'm sure like most everyone, I delete them, so any proof is gone. So now it's the casinos' word vs the players' and who is more likely to win in this situation?

So now, players have to check their spam mail? BS! They shouldn't have to, and casinos shouldn't be allowed to do this crap. If anyone wants to talk about anything "rigged", they should start looking into some of the practices, such as this. This, to me, is a form of entrapment. As is their rule about the welcome bonus. You have to read 200 lines of rules to find that term (and we all know MOST players don't actually READ the terms).

If you want to start screaming rigged, forget about the RTP, RNG and all the other acronyms. Lets start scrutinizing some of these casinos and their practices of changing payout times, payout reversals, signing up players to accounts without their knowledge. To me, these are important issues which should be confronted.

Oops, sorry for the derail...:(
 

Rachel888

Dormant account
Joined
Oct 5, 2010
Location
Herzliyah, Tel Aviv, Israel, Israel
Problem Solved!

Hi Guys,

As promised I brought up the issue, and we have resolved it :)

I also noticed that people had assumed that we would block players who didn't know that they had this account created if they created one on their own. That is NOT the case at all, we are not evil and not trying to trap people. Of course the accounts that had been created had been tagged as ones that had been created internally.

In regards to receiving welcome bonuses across our brands, if we have invited you to take part in a welcome bonus then we will NOT block you for taking us up on this offer. If someone has felt that they have been wrongfully blocked this is something that we deal with on a case by case issue.

[highlight]The promotion that started this thread has been stopped, and we are launching another one that will give our 888 players the option to create a Casino On Net account using their existing 888 details.[/highlight] This will be done with the complete consent of the player, it is a way to make life easier for our players. So the account will not be created until the player has authorized it, the mechanism is linked to the link in the email that is being sent out, if it is not activated within 24 hours then the offer will be shut down.

I hope that this has settled the issue.

You ask and we listen, we are not out to get people and like I said we have changed our ways.

Regards,
Rachel
 
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rainmaker

I'm not a penguin
Joined
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Location
-
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That is great, well done Rachel and 888 :thumbsup:

Case closed in my opinion.



(I think it is fair to mark this thread as "resolved" now, so maybe one of the mods can do that ?)
 

vinylweatherman

You type well loads
Joined
Oct 14, 2004
Location
United Kingdom
Hi Guys,

As promised I brought up the issue, and we have resolved it :)

I also noticed that people had assumed that we would block players who didn't know that they had this account created if they created one on their own. That is NOT the case at all, we are not evil and not trying to trap people. Of course the accounts that had been created had been tagged as ones that had been created internally.

In regards to receiving welcome bonuses across our brands, if we have invited you to take part in a welcome bonus then we will NOT block you for taking us up on this offer. If someone has felt that they have been wrongfully blocked this is something that we deal with on a case by case issue.

The promotion that started this thread has been stopped, and we are launching another one that will give our 888 players the option to create a Casino On Net account using their existing 888 details. This will be done with the complete consent of the player, it is a way to make life easier for our players. So the account will not be created until the player has authorized it, the mechanism is linked to the link in the email that is being sent out, if it is not activated within 24 hours then the offer will be shut down.

I hope that this has settled the issue.

You ask and we listen, we are not out to get people and like I said we have changed our ways.

Regards,
Rachel

Whilst this deals with the main problem raised in this thread, it leaves others, and creates new ones.

Firstly, players are not necessarily going to see the email and act on it in such a tight timescale. Simply being out for the day it is sent will be enough.

Secondly, many players will NOT click through an email link, but will do what every security consious person does, and navigate directly to the URL by typing it in, after all, they are about to type in their personal details.

The other problem is that in many previous cases the player DID receive an email inviting them to open an account, yet STILL found their winnings confiscated for taking up too many of these invites, so receipt of an invite email does NOT guarantee that the company will have "on record" that they are allowed to have another welcome bonus.

This problem is particulary bad among the white labels, but is not unknown between Reef Club and 888.com


I joined Reef Club long ago because of a pop-up on the 888.com site saying "join our sister casino Reef Club". There was a similar pop-up on the Reef Club site inviting players to join 888.com Later, things started to go wrong, and players who DID have accounts at both, and played bonuses at both, started reporting problems. I then noticed an additional "Neteller hating" term, plus an oddity that whilst I had to deposit $2000 dollars to claim all the bonus that preceded the big blackjack race, I could ONLY deposit this amount WITH Neteller, and if I tried to use my card, as strongly encouraged by the terms, I could NOT select $2000 as the software considered this too big for a single transaction.

This started to look a bit "iffy", so I bailed, and never went back. After this, the REAL problems began for those who continued to play, with one player after another being assured that Reef Club and 888 were "not connected", and denying that there was any "official" kind of invite from one to the other (in other words, denying the pop-up was their doing, but instead was down to some "malware" on the player's PC). If this wasn't bad enough, players' email was overflowing with spam for other casinos that equally claimed they were "not connected", yet somehow WERE connected all of a sudden when they decided to confiscate winnings from players who had joined too many of them. The reason many took the bonuses is because this is the ONLY thing the emails used in order to entice them to join.

At the time, it was no different than joining several casinos that were "powered by Microgaming", so players could not figure out what they were supposed to have done wrong, nor how these casinos had got hold of their personal information from other casinos that used the same software.

This behaviour has destroyed the credibilty of Cassava cross marketing as a concept, so no amount of tinkering around with it makes any difference, after all, as the say, "you can't make a silk purse from a sow's ear".

From more recent threads, the white label casinos are STILL misbehaving in this manner, entrapping players through misleading cross marketing into claiming too many bonuses at secretly related sister casinos.

The "unwritten rule" appears to be "one bonus at 888, another at Reef Club, and a third at any one white label - no more on pain of winnings being confiscated".

Most players receiving these invites, however done, will dismiss them as "yet more Cassava spam", thus the take up will be very low, which is perhaps why management decided to create accounts on behalf of players and then tell them, rather than just send an email about the "new" casino-on-net. New? REALLY? Funny that, given that "Casino-on-Net" was one of the FIRST casinos I tried back in 2004, and it was also referred to as 888.com, with the two names being interchangeable, but referring to ONE casino. To me, the above looks like an invite to multi-account at the ONE flagship Cassava casino, but with the blessing of management.

Had I received the email i would have dismissed it because I already have a dormant account there, and if the email was for 888, rather than Casino-on-net I would have STILL dismissed it as "affiliate spam" because it is simply a different name for the casino I already have an account at.

The ONLY improvement that I can see with accreditation is that we have a rep who will discuss these issues with, whereas in the past we only had CS, who didn't really seem to know much about such issues, and thus never gave consistent answers.

The only way forward seems to be to make the bonus policy ABSOLUTELY CLEAR, and feed this into the cross marketing so that players NEVER receive an "entrapment" email by accident. Further, if a player DOES receive an invite by email, and takes it up, they must be given a guarantee that the casino will "eat the mistake", and NOT confiscate the winnings from any bonus taken on the strength of said email as is currently the case.

Blocking should be programmed into the software such that players CANNOT get around the system, and again Cassava should guarantee that other than in cases of fraud, they will "eat" any mistakes made by this system that allows a player to successfully claim "too many" welcome bonuses.
 

rainmaker

I'm not a penguin
Joined
Dec 28, 2010
Location
-
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*Update*

So I recieved the "new" promo in my e-mail today. I have obviously no intention to use 888 but I logged into this "new" account out of curiosity.

Guess what? They have not deleted the first account they opened so I now have two accounts at the same casino. Two accounts with available free spins. Both of them opened by 888. Both can be used for deposits. And of course, I have now been offered two welcome bonuses in two different accounts in the same casino.

As you can see on the screenshot: "we found more than one username attached with the email you submitted..."

Yeah...two accounts in a casino that I have never used or really registered at. When will you open my third account?



888 mess.JPG
 
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