80% of casino revenue from problem gamblers.

Buffalo Bill

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Was listening to “Money Box” on BBC radio 4 last night and there was an article in the programme about the ability to fund an online casino with a mobile phone bill.
The problem with this they said was the ability to then pay your phone bill with a credit card and as we all know gambling with a cc is now illegal in the uk.
One of the anti gambling groups interviewed claimed that 80% of all online casinos revenue was from problem gamblers.
No statistics were cited nor was the claim questioned at all.
While I agree responsible gaming is an issue I struggle to believe these figures. Anyone have any actual figures on this?
 

LordSilver

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According to UKGC:

0.5%of people aged 16+ in England are classified as problem gamblers according to the PGSI or DSM-IV (2018)

So that they would make up 80% of the casino revenue seems like a number just made up...
 

bamberfishcake

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Couple of good quotes about the validity of statistics:

'Facts are stubborn things, but statistics are pliable'

'There are three types of lies -- lies, damn lies, and statistics'

This anti-gambling group have probably never had any real experience and see any person who gambles as an addict by the sound of it.

Its fair to assume the majority of profit would come from a few big spenders in some cases however. Who decides if they have a problem or not? Them and only them or their family/close friends or people who may be affected in some way.

I do agree gambling via your phone bill is wrong. Many a casino and provider seem to be focusing their operations on mobile users.
 

Buffalo Bill

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I do think the mobile phone bill gambling is a bit dubious. However the man on the program who was most vocal about it had £50k credit card debt due to gambling.
I don’t think the £40 a day you’re able to credit via mobile was his biggest problem.
 

pinnit2014

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Online, the BBC can't even string sentences together, with many words simply missing from their articles.

On the Telly, when they are summarising speeches etc someone will say, from their own mouth, 'that never happened', yet the BBC will put on the ticker tape 'Mr X admits', so i tend to take a pinch of rock salt with them.

I imagine the Anti Gambling Group picks up a lot of their facts from the same places like the Tax Payers Alliance does.
 

bamberfishcake

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I do think the mobile phone bill gambling is a bit dubious. However the man on the program who was most vocal about it had £50k credit card debt due to gambling.
I don’t think the £40 a day you’re able to credit via mobile was his biggest problem.

Ah i thought there would be some kind of limit on the bills.

Yes, his problem was that he decided to get into debt to gamble. He has spent money he did not have.

Makes me wonder if bailing problem gamblers out after and blaming casinos or legislation or government or whoever for not holding their hands really helps them.

You took the credit and gambled. You didnt try and start a charity or fund your own business. You took somebody else's money on the proviso you would pay back and took a stupid risk.
 

shaunb95

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Rotherham
If the UKGC has banned credit card deposits it should be banning mobile deposits as well, it’s still credit.
I admit about 5/6 years ago I was a massive problem gambler and having just turned into an ‘adult’ had massive access to credit - loans, cards, phones etc
When I stopped paying off loans and credit cards and my credit rating was bad I turned to using Boku, loading up casinos with my phone balance, now £40 a day doesn’t sound bad but that equates to about £1200 a month which was just shy of my salary at the time. With 3 bills under my name didn’t take long to rack up £3,500 of phone bill debt and after a couple of months just stopped paying the bill altogether, defaulting on the debt as with everything else & only this year have I managed to have that drop off but it’s effected me all this time.

even a tenner a day is no good as a limit - if you don’t have the money to do it, you shouldn’t do it, simple as, biggest lesson I ever learnt and unfortunately problem gamblers don’t care about that; it’s just ‘where’s the next fix’ so these things need to be in place to prevent it
 

GameRoom

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Trollville
my brother use mobile bill to gamble,he can only deposit £100 a month,till his next bill get pay,and he find easy to control his gambling,before he use his debit card and he spend £2k to£4 a month,to use you credit card you don't need to use mobile bill,you can just go to ATM get the cash out and deposit on debit and use it on gambling,Gambling is easy when you can control you self,if you cant control it nothing will stop you spend your money...UKGC can only make better if they make deal with banks and make limit on gambling site to deposit on same day
 

bamberfishcake

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Essex
What do people think about the help an addict gets in the UK after the event, meaning the time they hit rock bottom?

This may be an unpopular opinion but i think them getting their money, in most cases, does not help them on the road to recovery.
 

pinnit2014

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You've the added pressure dealing with the consequences; breakdown in family if it's not happened, losing homes, entering into IVA's: in some cases, depending on their work, that may be gone as well: with so much pressure that's when the urges maybe start to surface back again as well, so they're still fighting that on the other side.

I know someone in financial services who studied/worked really hard, ended up dipping into clients cookie jars and, well you know the rest: never be able to work in that area again: so the fall out (unlike IVA's/Defaulting which will affect you but not forever) is probably permanent there. He's sorted himself out now but had he came into money (non cookie jar) when he was scrambling, it would be gone in a week. Now? Rebuilt his life (ish) and who knows: i think they've seen the coming out of the other end too much to be tempted but i guess you just don't know.

I'm no expert like but it certain seems to be an affliction that can cut in multiple directions, top to bottom, left to right. Horrible.
 

bamberfishcake

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You've the added pressure dealing with the consequences; breakdown in family if it's not happened, losing homes, entering into IVA's: in some cases, depending on their work, that may be gone as well: with so much pressure that's when the urges maybe start to surface back again as well, so they're still fighting that on the other side.

I know someone in financial services who studied/worked really hard, ended up dipping into clients cookie jars and, well you know the rest: never be able to work in that area again: so the fall out (unlike IVA's/Defaulting which will affect you but not forever) is probably permanent there. He's sorted himself out now but had he came into money (non cookie jar) when he was scrambling, it would be gone in a week. Now? Rebuilt his life (ish) and who knows: i think they've seen the coming out of the other end too much to be tempted but i guess you just don't know.

I'm no expert like but it certain seems to be an affliction that can cut in multiple directions, top to bottom, left to right. Horrible.

Yes there are lots of lives ruined and i try not to be judgemental.

They have my sympathy though my post earlier did not come across that way.

I think support financially or emotionally for all affected should be there in some form. People do deserve second or third chances in most cases its just that i wonder if giving the money back, as sometimes seems to happen to the addicted, truly helps.

I think it opens up the system for a little abuse also.

I doubt it goes towards helping an addict if there are seemingly no consequences.

I do know somebody who has lost nearly everything. Even his children dont see him :(

I would'nt like to see him in the gutter anymore but dont think him having money helps him.

I suppose every case is different as you say though.
 

Fredos386

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Well the 80% is nearly right tho. The thing is even if say 2% of the population is addicted vs 98% that are not. The fact is that it's that 2% that is always stuck on the slots everyday all year long. The other casuals will go for a couple hours a few times a year and that's it. If a casual play 10 days a year and a addict plays 360 days a year.. that means the casual player playtime is about 3% of the addict playtime. So yeah these numbers are real and that's why some people are fighting. Because the industry and govs try to bullshit their way out because they will go down in flames if the problematic gamblers are "controlled". A casino can lose the casual players.. but they can't afford to lose the addicts. A casual will not only spend a lot less.. but when they hit big.. they leave with the money and not much of it returns to the casino while when an addict wins big.. the casinos know 100% of it is coming back straight home.
 

Halvor

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Malta
Well the 80% is nearly right tho. The thing is even if say 2% of the population is addicted vs 98% that are not. The fact is that it's that 2% that is always stuck on the slots everyday all year long. The other casuals will go for a couple hours a few times a year and that's it. If a casual play 10 days a year and a addict plays 360 days a year.. that means the casual player playtime is about 3% of the addict playtime. So yeah these numbers are real and that's why some people are fighting. Because the industry and govs try to bullshit their way out because they will go down in flames if the problematic gamblers are "controlled". A casino can lose the casual players.. but they can't afford to lose the addicts. A casual will not only spend a lot less.. but when they hit big.. they leave with the money and not much of it returns to the casino while when an addict wins big.. the casinos know 100% of it is coming back straight home.

It's nearly correct based on what exactly? your prejudice towards the industry? Or your "analytics" with no root in reality?
 

Fredos386

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My prejudice lmao. Always the same thing. I could pinpoint every single details and show you i know exactly what im talking about and it,s not hate or wahtever prejudice but it would take 2000 pages that no one would read anyway. The industry lie about the rtp, lie about the "randomness". Many casinos run slots on a bs RTP while still advertising them as the highest RTP... they simply provide the rtp shown on the provider page and not the model they are operating to mislead an fraud. The slots are sold as random, each spin indpendant from another while in fact it's all scripts and controlled by an algorythm and rng programmed to manipulate players and turn them into complete hopeless degens. Casinos KYC all over the place to delay withdrawals making players reverse. They bring in multiple IP bs all over the steal everyone's winnings. Casinos lie about the source of their income because they don't want anyone to act upon it which would cause massive losses. No the industry starts with so many strikes that your claim just die out on its own. If most of the people don't know are unable to understand the mechanics of the casino system it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.. it just means you either have no clue or willingly act like it.

But the industry is shooting itself in the foot day after day... we don't even need to do anything you guys are running yourselves into the ground on your own trying to keep going in that direction. The debates would be alot different if next to our names were shown our ability to understand maths, statistics, algorythms, randomness etc. Big brains are not in the casino industry... The proof is that if they were.. casinos wouldnt operate like they do right now digging their hole day after day. It's just hilarious to see an industry that plan to stay in business "forever" act like temporary fraud casinos that go from a region to another cheating everyone. They don't care as they will be gone before people realize. By cheating, scamming and fakking up players all over you just make them leave.. or at least spend a lot less. Most of the actions and decisions taken by the industry has temporary relief that lead to a much bigger problem after that need patching with even more stupid decisions. But heh narcissism is strong in this business and these people won't ever listen to anyone and definitly not a "player".

Fun fact is... the industry don't even need to lie and fraud like they do. They could just be straight forward telling the truth about how it works and everything while not using tactics to fraud anyone. The transition would hurt but long term the benefits would be huge. What i see is dumb people thinking they are smart and proving me day after day that they are not what they claim or think they are. Casinos need to lie fraud and scam not because they have no choice but because they took stupid decisions in the past that they need to patch with these actions. Like i wrote on another post.. like a restaurant that struggle and decide to lower portions and increase price. Then even less customers come so he raise prices again and lower portions again to the point there is no customer anymore and he goes bankrupt. The only reason why the industry didn't collapse already is because of how powerful the effect of the slots algorythm has on the players turning everyone addict alot more and faster than they would in a legit random environment. But even that has limits.. because when you ruin your players... life forces them out of the game.. therapy, bankruptcy.. family.. or suicide. A ruined customer doesnt return to deposit for years+. If you ruin the remaining ones to compensate the loss.. then you are gg. Casinos operated in a fashion of "the world is huge, we have infinite players to scam" but now casinos are everywhere... there is no such thing as infinite players anymore. A new player in a casino is an ex-player coming from another. Actions taken by certain groups have consequences over all the casinos. I have no doubt that some casinos management really wanted to be "honest" but the industry is screwed so bad they either have to close the business or go ahead and scam too because they have no choice.

Just look at how much money is taken by the banking system and wallets. I guarantee you that in the first half of my online gambling life (before all the rtp cuts and promo cut) i was spending more in bank fees and btc trading fees than i would lose to the casinos themselves. Then you have providers that think because they make a 99 cents app for cellphone they have to be paid millions if not billions for the rest of eternity. Then affiliates that often run away with half the profits. No surprise casinos struggle so much and have to act like that. The whole thing is fakked so i don't need to do anything ... You guys do it to yourselves. But it's sad when i see addict players side with casinos protecting the peopla that ruined them. Like if some really want to suffer in life.
 

Halvor

Experienced Member
Joined
Apr 3, 2018
Location
Malta
My prejudice lmao. Always the same thing. I could pinpoint every single details and show you i know exactly what im talking about and it,s not hate or wahtever prejudice but it would take 2000 pages that no one would read anyway. The industry lie about the rtp, lie about the "randomness". Many casinos run slots on a bs RTP while still advertising them as the highest RTP... they simply provide the rtp shown on the provider page and not the model they are operating to mislead an fraud. The slots are sold as random, each spin indpendant from another while in fact it's all scripts and controlled by an algorythm and rng programmed to manipulate players and turn them into complete hopeless degens. Casinos KYC all over the place to delay withdrawals making players reverse. They bring in multiple IP bs all over the steal everyone's winnings. Casinos lie about the source of their income because they don't want anyone to act upon it which would cause massive losses. No the industry starts with so many strikes that your claim just die out on its own. If most of the people don't know are unable to understand the mechanics of the casino system it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.. it just means you either have no clue or willingly act like it.

But the industry is shooting itself in the foot day after day... we don't even need to do anything you guys are running yourselves into the ground on your own trying to keep going in that direction. The debates would be alot different if next to our names were shown our ability to understand maths, statistics, algorythms, randomness etc. Big brains are not in the casino industry... The proof is that if they were.. casinos wouldnt operate like they do right now digging their hole day after day. It's just hilarious to see an industry that plan to stay in business "forever" act like temporary fraud casinos that go from a region to another cheating everyone. They don't care as they will be gone before people realize. By cheating, scamming and fakking up players all over you just make them leave.. or at least spend a lot less. Most of the actions and decisions taken by the industry has temporary relief that lead to a much bigger problem after that need patching with even more stupid decisions. But heh narcissism is strong in this business and these people won't ever listen to anyone and definitly not a "player".

Fun fact is... the industry don't even need to lie and fraud like they do. They could just be straight forward telling the truth about how it works and everything while not using tactics to fraud anyone. The transition would hurt but long term the benefits would be huge. What i see is dumb people thinking they are smart and proving me day after day that they are not what they claim or think they are. Casinos need to lie fraud and scam not because they have no choice but because they took stupid decisions in the past that they need to patch with these actions. Like i wrote on another post.. like a restaurant that struggle and decide to lower portions and increase price. Then even less customers come so he raise prices again and lower portions again to the point there is no customer anymore and he goes bankrupt. The only reason why the industry didn't collapse already is because of how powerful the effect of the slots algorythm has on the players turning everyone addict alot more and faster than they would in a legit random environment. But even that has limits.. because when you ruin your players... life forces them out of the game.. therapy, bankruptcy.. family.. or suicide. A ruined customer doesnt return to deposit for years+. If you ruin the remaining ones to compensate the loss.. then you are gg. Casinos operated in a fashion of "the world is huge, we have infinite players to scam" but now casinos are everywhere... there is no such thing as infinite players anymore. A new player in a casino is an ex-player coming from another. Actions taken by certain groups have consequences over all the casinos. I have no doubt that some casinos management really wanted to be "honest" but the industry is screwed so bad they either have to close the business or go ahead and scam too because they have no choice.

Just look at how much money is taken by the banking system and wallets. I guarantee you that in the first half of my online gambling life (before all the rtp cuts and promo cut) i was spending more in bank fees and btc trading fees than i would lose to the casinos themselves. Then you have providers that think because they make a 99 cents app for cellphone they have to be paid millions if not billions for the rest of eternity. Then affiliates that often run away with half the profits. No surprise casinos struggle so much and have to act like that. The whole thing is fakked so i don't need to do anything ... You guys do it to yourselves. But it's sad when i see addict players side with casinos protecting the peopla that ruined them. Like if some really want to suffer in life.

So what I should take from this rant is that you disregards 99% of any reputable research on problem gambling, that firmly puts the revenue generated from it to between 5-15%, because the industry lacks big brains like yours?

Additionally you can prove why everyone else is wrong and you are right, but you just can't be arsed? and even better, RTP is also a fraud, but you just won't bother to prove it to everyone? :)
 
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