7Red Bonus Policy

guesswest

Experienced Member
Joined
Sep 1, 2005
Location
Malta
7Red IIRC is a casino that was rogued a couple of years ago for a having some false certification banners then derogued when they claimed it was a webmaster's mistake, to my knowledge no issues since.

Anyway I decided to play there this week, took advantage of their 100% welcome bonus and ran my balance up a bit, all with non-advantage drunk flat betting and went to cash out. I haven't been paid yet, but I don't have any reason to think I won't be either - and from what I can tell searching for them it seems like they do in fact pay their players.

So anyway I go to cash out - I'd skimmed the terms of use beforehand to make sure I wasn't in a prohibited country, no stupid onerous bonus terms etc, but didn't read them too deeply. When I got done playing I went to read their bonus policy properly and I noticed under bonus policy ALL it says is this:

We don't require an impossible roll-out, rather we deliver Casino chips straight into your account.
The chips are yours to play with right away but cannot be cashed out.
However, any money you win with those chips is available for withdrawal.
This is the fairest policy you will find, guaranteed!

I'm reading that just thinking it cannot possibly be right. A sticky bonus with no wagering requirements? So in theory I can deposit $500, bet 1k on black then cash out $1500 if I win? So I emailed support to confirm, and they did confirm:

Hi xxx,

Thank you for contacting 7red.com.

Yes, as you understood from our FAQ-section, there are no requirements for releasing bonuses. The chips will be transferred directly to your 7red account, for you to play with. As for withdrawal, you can withdraw the amount which shows under “balance” in your account-page.

I hope that this answered your question, if not, please do not hesitate to contact us if you have any further questions.

Reference number: LTK16607960236X Please use this ticket number in any correspondence with us.

Kind regards,

Susanne
Customer Support Agent
7RED - www.7red.com

Again, no advantage play from me, just drunk button mashing. But how are they still in business? Surely they should have been bonus whored to death by now? This has me worried about getting paid in the same way Madoff's return rates should have been a red flag - I don't see how they can possibly sustain this business model?
 

guesswest

Experienced Member
Joined
Sep 1, 2005
Location
Malta
Urgh, I meant to post this under 'online casinos' not 'complaints.' 7Red haven't actually done anything wrong yet so it doesn't seem fair on them to have this thread here - can a mod please move?
 

Nifty29

Dormant account
Joined
Jun 20, 2001
Location
Turn right, then right. then right again
7RED= spamming a-holes

I hope you get paid.

The only way they could stay afloat with that kind of policy is if the games are seriously rigged.

My concern would be that there are some other hidden terms that you won't discover until they reject your withdrawal. BTW what software do they use?

It would be great if you could keep us informed.
 

guesswest

Experienced Member
Joined
Sep 1, 2005
Location
Malta
7RED= spamming a-holes

I hope you get paid.

The only way they could stay afloat with that kind of policy is if the games are seriously rigged.

My concern would be that there are some other hidden terms that you won't discover until they reject your withdrawal. BTW what software do they use?

It would be great if you could keep us informed.

They use Betsoft, which is actually pretty good looking software. They have a TST stamp, which is the same place Playtech uses to audit their RNG - I suspect based on the previous roguing issue it's probably genuine this time, but I don't know for sure.

The other issue with the cashout I forgot to mention btw. They allow cashouts by Moneybookers/Neteller, but only if you deposit that way, and there is no facility to deposit with anything other than a credit card :D Which means I've had to cash out by Western Union and the fees for doing so will be removed from the cashout. It is kinda balla and exciting getting paid in cash now and then so if that's the only issue I'm not going to complain too much, but it does seem a bit disorganized.
 

guesswest

Experienced Member
Joined
Sep 1, 2005
Location
Malta
Received my cashout today. To my bank account, not to WU, which they apparently no longer support.

It took a full 9 business days to arrive from the day they claim to have sent it. I'm inclined to believe they did send it promptly as advised though, I think this was a problem on my end as I had some other transfers held up for a similar amount of time this week due to some sort of internal screw up with my bank. No charges applied for the cashout by 7red either. I'm still a little confused by how they run their bonus policy profitably but they have good games and as far as I can tell paid me promptly, so no complaints.
 

Tengil

Senior Member
Joined
May 4, 2006
Location
Finland
The EV is very small on the bonus, a few tenners (under 50). Much smaller than what the majority of casinos have, altough with only a bit over 50% chance of busting. And if they charge some fees for withdrawing it becomes even smaller.
 
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guesswest

Experienced Member
Joined
Sep 1, 2005
Location
Malta
The EV is very small on the bonus, a few tenners (under 50). Much smaller than what the majority of casinos have, altough with only a bit over 50% chance of busting. And if they charge some fees for withdrawing it becomes even smaller.

The EV is almost the entire bonus? And they didn't charge me fees for withdrawing. I'm wondering if you missed the part about not requiring playthrough?

I'm too lazy to work out the EV exactly, but if we assume 50% chance of winning at BJ then half the time you lose $100 and half the time you profit $200. It'll be $1-2 less than that due to the house edge, but basically they're giving away a free $100. I'm not sure what they would do if someone deposited and played that way though, and they may have table limits that prohibit maximum EV strat - but it will inevitably still be hugely +EV.
 

Tengil

Senior Member
Joined
May 4, 2006
Location
Finland
The EV is almost the entire bonus? And they didn't charge me fees for withdrawing. I'm wondering if you missed the part about not requiring playthrough?

I'm too lazy to work out the EV exactly, but if we assume 50% chance of winning at BJ then half the time you lose $100 and half the time you profit $200. It'll be $1-2 less than that due to the house edge, but basically they're giving away a free $100. I'm not sure what they would do if someone deposited and played that way though, and they may have table limits that prohibit maximum EV strat - but it will inevitably still be hugely +EV.

On roulette EV is a few units under 50.
On BJ EV depends on how you play it with full BR bet. What must be taken in to account is when you face a double or split etc. Probably somewhere around 40(?).

Dont know how much time you have to spend on setting up an account, withdrawing (if you win) and what fees they charge if any etc. So its not really a goldmine plus as you said you may encounter "issues" with that style.
 

guesswest

Experienced Member
Joined
Sep 1, 2005
Location
Malta
On roulette EV is a few units under 50.
On BJ EV depends on how you play it with full BR bet. What must be taken in to account is when you face a double or split etc. Probably somewhere around 40(?).

Dont know how much time you have to spend on setting up an account, withdrawing (if you win) and what fees they charge if any etc. So its not really a goldmine plus as you said you may encounter "issues" with that style.

Nowhere near as low as 40% on a full BR bet in BJ, and that number is your winrate not your EV. You do lose a couple of % points to the house edge if you can't split/double, but not much. On a 100% up to $100 bonus your EV is not going to be any less than +$95. It takes about 2 mins to set up an account but it'd still be worthwhile for most people if it took an hour, $95 an hour is not a bad wage.

More to the point it's a guaranteed loser for the casino yet they have nothing in their terms to prohibit it. Which either means they have gotten lucky and bonus whorers haven't caught on, it's a huge loss leader they're somehow absorbing, or they confiscate funds for reasons not covered in their terms. The latter possibility is why I was worried about not getting paid, unnecessarily as it turns out.
 

Tengil

Senior Member
Joined
May 4, 2006
Location
Finland
EV for non cashable is B x bustrate - average WR x HA. So if you assume a game with 50% chance of bust and a HA of 2% it would be 100x0,5-200x0,02.

Not everyone is going to go with full BR bets or be bothered with the little there is to gain. Again the majority of casinos have higher EV on their SUBs and are still in business.
 

guesswest

Experienced Member
Joined
Sep 1, 2005
Location
Malta
EV for non cashable is B x bustrate - average WR x HA. So if you assume a game with 50% chance of bust and a HA of 2% it would be 100x0,5-200x0,02.

Not everyone is going to go with full BR bets or be bothered with the little there is to gain. Again the majority of casinos have higher EV on their SUBs and are still in business.

That formulation is right but you need to include the full balance for wagering purposes in your calcs (bonus+deposit):

(200*0.5) - (200*0.02) = 96.

I have personally never seen a bonus that ridiculously +EV that wasn't a quickly fixed mistake. I really can't see how you consider this a small edge and if you do know of other casinos offering similar or better bonuses I'd like to hear about them.
 

Tengil

Senior Member
Joined
May 4, 2006
Location
Finland
If you add the full balance then the bonus would be cashable with 0 WR.
Again the 50% bust example but without HA .
Deposit 100 and get 100 bonus (non cashable), balance is 200. Win you gain 200 and if you lose your loss is 100 -> EV 50.

Some MGs for example still have early withdrawal.
 

guesswest

Experienced Member
Joined
Sep 1, 2005
Location
Malta
If you add the full balance then the bonus would be cashable with 0 WR.
Again the 50% bust example but without HA .
Deposit 100 and get 100 bonus (non cashable), balance is 200. Win you gain 200 and if you lose your loss is 100 -> EV 50.

You lose $100 half the time and gain $200 the rest of the time, so adjusting for variance you make $100 each time. I don't know where you're getting EV=50 from, or what that number is meant to represent? EV is a function of whatever the denomination at the front end of the calc is, in this case that is $ so your EV is calculated in $ too and will be something a little under $100.

Some MGs for example still have early withdrawal.

That also allow you to bet your whole balance on a 50/50? I'm not saying you're wrong but if so they're losing a ton vs advantage players.
 

Tengil

Senior Member
Joined
May 4, 2006
Location
Finland
Right exactly this. You lose $100 half the time and gain $200 the rest of the time, so adjusting for variance you make $100 each time. I also don't know where you're getting EV=50 from, or what that number is intended to represent? EV is a function of whatever the denomination at the front end of the calc is, in this case that is $ so your EV is going to be something a little under $100.

Some MGs for example still have early withdrawal.

That also allow you to bet your whole balance on a 50/50? I'm not saying you're wrong but if so they're losing a ton vs advantage players.[/QUOTE]

200-100/2= 50.

20 times in a row with wins and losses even you win 1000 (200x10-100x10). So 1000/20=50.

Expekt for example should still have early withdrawal with no betsize limits (100% to 200).
 
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guesswest

Experienced Member
Joined
Sep 1, 2005
Location
Malta
200-100/2= 50.

For example do it 20 times in a row and if losses and wins are even you have won a total of 1000 (2000 in winnings and 1000 in losses). 1000/20=50

This is arithmetic error, I drew a blank on it in the last post too. When you win you win 300, not 200, ie you have a balance of 400 with 100 bonus removed. So if you run it 20 times you make 2000 (3000 in winnings and 1000 in losses). 2000/20=100.
 

Tengil

Senior Member
Joined
May 4, 2006
Location
Finland
This is arithmetic error, I drew a blank on it in the last post too. When you win you win 300, not 200, ie you have a balance of 400 with 100 bonus removed. So if you run it 20 times you make 2000 (3000 in winnings and 1000 in losses). 2000/20=100.

You cant treat your deposit as a win. Again the 20 times example, you deposit 2000 win 2000 and lose 1000 which would be a total of 3000 of which 2000 is your own deposited money. Maybe gain would be a better word than win in this case.
 

guesswest

Experienced Member
Joined
Sep 1, 2005
Location
Malta
Have concluded that you're right :p

I can't see anything wrong with your math - I was forgetting to remove the sticky. I'm finding it highly counter-intuitive that tripling up half the the time and busting half the time would not result in a 100% return, but apparently it doesn't.

I'm still surprised they're in business giving away so much EV on their welcome bonus though, it is still a lot. I can imagine some of the bigger casinos like Expekt running a bonus like this, as loss leader or figuring only a small percentage of their pool would advantage play it. But in the case of a small outfit like 7red if whorer forums get wind advantage players would suddenly represent a very significant chunk of their player pool.
 
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vinylweatherman

You type well loads
Joined
Oct 14, 2004
Location
United Kingdom
Have concluded that you're right :p

I can't see anything wrong with your math - I was forgetting to remove the sticky. I'm finding it highly counter-intuitive that tripling up half the the time and busting half the time would not result in a 100% return, but apparently it doesn't.

I'm still surprised they're in business giving away so much EV on their welcome bonus though, it is still a lot. I can imagine some of the bigger casinos like Expekt running a bonus like this, as loss leader or figuring only a small percentage of their pool would advantage play it. But in the case of a small outfit like 7red if whorer forums get wind advantage players would suddenly represent a very significant chunk of their player pool.

I expect they have an "F U clause" somewhere about "irregular play". Players who use this strategy would have winnings confiscated, but the casino would KEEP the losing bets. This would allow them to offer this bonus until the publicity of mass confiscations became too much, rather than when the "whores first got wind" of this offer.
 

Tengil

Senior Member
Joined
May 4, 2006
Location
Finland
I still dont think its such a great bonus and doubt that they will be ruined because of it.
Your chance of bust with full BR bet on baccarat for example is still over 50% and the possible win is under 50. And then you dont take risk of issues, possible fees, time spent etc in to account.

There are much easier bonuses with higher EV out there than this. In the end when considering what damage APs and bonushunters can cause its better to look at how high the EV is.

Edit: you can marginally increase your EV on this by increasing your bustrate.
 
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