$4700 in Fraudulent Charges, then $12000 in Withdrawals Taken When Trying to Fix it

anniemac

Ueber Meister
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Location
Texas, USA
Thanks, Bryan.

There is a big difference between charging back to a casino because you're pissed you lost and charging back because some crook ran rampant with your credit card information.

Rushmore has certainly made Virtual look like angels.
 

just play

closed account
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Jan 27, 2006
Location
USA
I've been asked to chime in here on the chargebacking thing. Not a problem. In this situation where the player has gone through all means available on coming to terms with the disappearance of funds, then to charge back is a logical solution. We could ask, "Why didn't Rushmore step in to square this player away?" Well, Rushmore is in no position to pay this player, much less any others since their casinos are - I'm extrapolating here - barely financially afloat.

The main thing is that the player understands the consequences of charging back. He may be blacklisted at those processors involved, but I'm sure that the casinos that have been reading this thread would be willing to waive that blacklisting since they know the chargeback was done with no ill-intent.

But again Bryan, not every gambler belongs to CM. What about all the hundreds/thousands of players that don't even know about CM? There was indeed a time in every members life that we didn't know about you. So the casinos that have been reading this thread ONLY know about Keno at this time.

It doesn't make sense to me. The chargeback issue. I know there are cheats out there, but why should the honest player who gets money stolen from them get blacklisted? Isn't it time for whomever is in charge of chargebacks figure out a way, so that the cheats get blacklisted and the non-cheats don't? Is it that difficult? (I don't know how this works, but there must be a way)
 

anniemac

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My personal opinion, I think that casinos where you have a personal rapport will take the blacklist with a grain of salt.

I am quite sure that the good casinos are well aware of Rushmore and this mess and have taken into consideration what is and has happened.
 

Keno

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Location
Eastern Coast of the USA
In this situation where the player has gone through all means available
As evidenced by this thread's example, I've got no problems working together with everyone involved. Number one, it's the fair thing to do, and number two, the online gaming world would be a better place if everyone complied. I don't want to selfishly ruin things for others, and I do want to remain a valued player in good standing at all my casinos. But at what price?

If a player does the "right" thing for the casinos, the time it takes can be longer than the cutoff period allowed for charging back. In this case, it looks like going through the proper channels is going to cost me $2700. I should have just charged those fraud transactions back from the jump, and not emailed a soul about it. <--- And THAT right there is what's wrong with the current dynamic -- it's counterproductive! Time for a new ruleset. Because like it or not, the one we have now is using fear to discourage legitimate players from doing the right thing.
 

vinylweatherman

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Location
United Kingdom
I've been asked to chime in here on the chargebacking thing. Not a problem. In this situation where the player has gone through all means available on coming to terms with the disappearance of funds, then to charge back is a logical solution. We could ask, "Why didn't Rushmore step in to square this player away?" Well, Rushmore is in no position to pay this player, much less any others since their casinos are - I'm extrapolating here - barely financially afloat.

The main thing is that the player understands the consequences of charging back. He may be blacklisted at those processors involved, but I'm sure that the casinos that have been reading this thread would be willing to waive that blacklisting since they know the chargeback was done with no ill-intent.

The impression I get is that even a legit chargeback means a player often gets blacklisted for life, and finds it very hard to clear their name.


The OP initially had Club World freeze their $12,000 for merely mentioning that the solution to recovering the funds stolen by this processor might have to be a chargeback, even though Rushmore told them to charge back. I got the impression that from the point of view of Club World, even this is not a legitimate reason to charge back. Just reaching this stage meant running past the 60 day window for over half the funds.

Had the OP acted quickly enough to recover the full $4700, I believe it would have been at the expense of the $12,000 from Club World. In this case, letting the thieving processor keep the money meant the OP ended up with MORE money than they otherwise would have.

The OP probably has no chance of playing anywhere new, who will just see the blacklist report and nothing about the circumstances.

If Rushmore are right when they say many of their players have charged back after having funds disappear from their cards, then many players will be on the blacklist. However, this contradicts the other claim made by Rushmore, that the OP was the "only player" to suffer a theft of funds by the processor.

Since Rushmore are so keen to throw Club World and others under the bus, how about the reputable RTG operators getting together and throwing Rushmore under the bus instead by putting pressure on RTG to deal with this operator that threatens to flood the system with chargebacks through what they are telling players.
 

Keno

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Keno do you have any info on that payment processor? Name, etc?
Sorry, I must have missed this question before.

Yes, of course I have that info (not the processor's name, but I have the descriptors, dates, amounts, etc.). It was emailed in a spreadsheet to all the casino groups. But it wasn't just one transaction or one descriptor. There were 3 different names that came up repeatedly over 25 transactions and 3 credit cards. If someone like Brian or Vinyl says it's okay to post the names, I will be happy to.
 

dreamguardian1

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Just cathing up here, but WOW. The good news (IMO), is that you can easily match the transaction history (for most reputable casino's such as Club World) to your bank statement and be able to match them up. Yes, it is time consuming but thats why i always check my credit card, bank statements everytime i see a transaction go through, or denied due to processing issues i make double sure that that charge doesn't go through by checking the reference number.

I know of a few casino's off the top of my head that right now are having processor issues of every type and I dont think its fair to hold the honest player responsible or blacklisted. I totally agree with the others about doing the PAB, you can back up everything you have said, however, on the other side of that is watch the timeframe......
 

vinylweatherman

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Location
United Kingdom
Sorry, I must have missed this question before.

Yes, of course I have that info (not the processor's name, but I have the descriptors, dates, amounts, etc.). It was emailed in a spreadsheet to all the casino groups. But it wasn't just one transaction or one descriptor. There were 3 different names that came up repeatedly over 25 transactions and 3 credit cards. If someone like Brian or Vinyl says it's okay to post the names, I will be happy to.

This is really up to Bryan, and the ATB forum section is more suited to this level of discussion about such issues, which are beyond mere "payment processing issues". It could be that Rushmore are lying about the processor not forwarding the money to them, and the processor not being the true villain. The descriptors will give an indication, as if the processor has not done a runner, they may be still processing for other casinos, and comparing descriptors among players may help confirm this.

You could even send a list of these rogue descriptors to other casino reps to see if they will be prepared to shed more light via PM into what is going on. Ask the reps first before sending the list. They are going to feel they can reveal more via PM than they can in a forum post, even in the ATB section.
 

amatrine

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Arizona City, Az
Well in my opinion, if you are worried about getting blacklisted by doing a charge back to to a bad processor , I would not be, because I would not want to deposit at any casino that still uses that currant processor, that ripped you off, because if they did it once they will do it again. Do you even have the info on the processor that did this?
I had that happen once remember a while back with that one that everyone was getting hit with, and being charged as porn. I got it reversed from, the bank , with no problem because they are ripping off so many people the bank has them as a problem. .... That was when i tried to load a disk to a new casino, it denied my credit card, but that charge went through to my account as that porn charge . Stayed away from that group, and never tried again. ....

Even though rushmore no longer uses that processor, you can still go after them with your bank, and like I said , if you get banned from that processor , thats not a bad thing, but if your bank is not working with you, I have no idea.
 

Keno

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Eastern Coast of the USA
Canadian CC Bank Has Agreed to do the Reversals!

Ah, yes! We're probably getting that other $2700 back too!

After calling that Canadian bank (with the US dollar card) a 2nd time and insisting, they were willing to waive their 60 day limitation on chargebacks. The case has begun, and now with the banks from all 3 credit cards working on this, it looks like we should be getting back the entire sum listed in the OP!

I'll keep you all posted with any further updates.
 

Keno

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Do you even have the info on the processor that did this?
No, I only have the descriptors that appeared on the card statements. Does anyone ever learn the names of the actual processors that we go through when depositing? I was under the impression that stuff was only known by casino operators, and never given out to the players.
 

P.V.

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Turn around...
No, I only have the descriptors that appeared on the card statements. Does anyone ever learn the names of the actual processors that we go through when depositing? I was under the impression that stuff was only known by casino operators, and never given out to the players.

No. The banks know, or will find out exactly who processed the transactions and how they were routed during your dispute.
 

Keno

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Good news. Good luck!
Thanks. Definitely good news.

I don't want to give anyone the impression that was all okay though. We still had to take LOTS of time to sort this nightmare out for the last 3-4 months. I've spend countless hours posting, PMing, chatting, emailing, not to mention the emotional turmoil; the stress and anxiety that goes along with having $15000 on your money held hostage. It also sucks being told how many ways you did things incorrectly, even when you KNOW that you went out of your way to be fair to the merchants, and to do things the right way.

Aside from the time and aggravation spent, we also lost the 3-4 months of interest we had to pay on the $4700 worth of fraud. Nobody's giving that back to us. Then, there's the stain on my record as a player and with RTG over having to issue chargebacks on 25 unauthorized transactions and the fees associated with 13 of them. At least one e-wallet issued a lifetime ban on credit card deposits over this, and the other casinos just recently started to increase my deposit limits to what they used to be before this all happened. And finally of course, the UIGEA issues with the US issued cards that Vinyl was talking about earlier, where I have to expose myself to reprimand from the banks over gambling transactions. In this case, it's attempted gambling transactions, so they may take more kindly to it.

Bottom line, if stuff like this can happen to a LEGITIMATE player, then a lot of things need to be seriously reviewed, and then drastically changed.
 

P.V.

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webmeister
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Turn around...
Thanks. Definitely good news.

I don't want to give anyone the impression that was all okay though. We still had to take LOTS of time to sort this nightmare out for the last 3-4 months. I've spend countless hours posting, PMing, chatting, emailing, not to mention the emotional turmoil; the stress and anxiety that goes along with having $15000 on your money held hostage. It also sucks being told how many ways you did things incorrectly, even when you KNOW that you went out of your way to be fair to the merchants, and to do things the right way.

Aside from the time and aggravation spent, we hawe also lost the 3-4 months of interest d to pay on the $4700 worth of fraud. Nobody's giving that back to us. Then, there's the stain on my record as a player and with RTG over having to issue chargebacks on 25 unauthorized transactions and the fees associated with 13 of them. At least one e-wallet issued a lifetime ban on credit card deposits over this, and the other casinos just recently started to increase my deposit limits to what they used to be before this all happened. And finally of course, the UIGEA issues with the US issued cards that Vinyl was talking about earlier, where I have to expose myself to reprimand from the banks over gambling transactions. In this case, it's attempted gambling transactions, so they may take more kindly to it.

Bottom line, if stuff like this can happen to a LEGITIMATE player, then a lot of things need to be seriously reviewed, and then drastically changed.


The interest on $4700.00 isn't anything to worry about.:rolleyes: Bottom line is that it will change for U.S. player's some day! ;) Currently it is what it is.. :)
 

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