3Dice Casino - Confiscation of 40 Euro for playing too little

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Markus

Banned User - Violation of forum rule 1.10 - playe
PABnonaccred
Joined
Aug 31, 2008
Location
Berlin
Hello all,

on last Saturday I have deposit 250 Euro in 3Dice Casino. I didn't received any bonus. I have played a slot machine with 1 Cent per spin. I have made around 100 spins and was a quite disappointed about the result. Then I have decided to withdraw my balance of 249.38 Euro. There was no problem with that withdrawal.

Then two days later I have made a deposit of 500 Euro in 3Dice Casino, again with no bonus. This time I tried another slot machine with again around 100 1-cent spins. The result was also very poor and again I decided not to play more and requested a withdrawal.

Later I have got this email from 3Dice:
Dear Markus,

We have noticed that your current withdraw request for 499.21 has occurred
shortly after your deposit and after hardly any play.I would like to know if
there is a reason for this.

I am sure you understand that depositing and withdrawing without any play
brings unwanted transaction costs.

I am afraid we will not be able to process this transaction at this time
unless you play at least a bit more .You could have some fun and win and that
is the reason you have deposited here with us I hope.In this case we would be
happy to accommodate your request as soon as possible.

Looking forward to hear from you.

Kind regards,
Anna

Your Ticket-Team
(request handled by Anna)

I have answered this:
Hello,

please proceed with my withdrawal.


Regards

Then I have got this response:
Hello Markus,

Your withdrawal will be processed as soon as possible, minus the transaction
fee for 40 we paid for your 500 deposit.Thank you for your understanding and
have a good day!

Kind regards,
Anna

My response on that was:
Hello,

I don't accept this! On which basis are you charging me with 40 Euro? I
didn't found anything in your T&C that says, that if the player haven't
rolled over his deposit at least n-times the player may be charged with
40 Euro.

I expect that you pay me in full!


Regards

Till now I didn't got any response to my last mail. I have written a message to the user 3Dice at this forum:
Hello,

according to forum rule 2.2 I contact you before posting a complaint against 3Dice Casino.

3Dice Casino is going to confiscate 40 Euro of my money with the justification I haven't played enough. This arbitrary act is not backed by your Terms & Conditions. For this reason I demand that you pay me in full! Feel free to close my account after you paid me I will not play again in you casino anyway.
My AccountNr is: ********


Regards

He responded with this:
3Dice said:
Markus,

Quoting from our T&C :

3Dice T&C point 5. said:
In compliance with terms and applicable law, when your account is closed or terminated, you will be entitled to the returnable funds in that account, less deduction of eventual processing fees.3DICE.COM reserves the right to refuse or cancel your registration and/or account for any reason whatsoever at any time without notice to you. Any balance in the account at the time of such cancellation will be credited to your credit card or other financial instrument,and/or sent to you by check to your registered address.Notwithstanding the aforementioned and without limiting other remedies 3DICE.COM reserves the right to void any winnings and to withhold any balance in your account where 3DICE.COM determines that you have breached any of these terms,where suspicion of evidence of manipulation of 3DICE.COM financial system or of your or another customers account arises, if 3DICE.COM has grounds to believe that you are using the site for purposes other than those for which it was intended,committing any offense, or if your actions may cause legal liability for you, other users or for 3DICE.COM.

You have deposited first 250 (to withdraw 249) - we did not stop you on that one, then 500 (withdrawing 499) with a total stake generated of less than $2. This is clearly abuse of the 3Dice financial system and trying to make 3Dice pay for the credit card costs you have when depositing directly into moneybookers. 3Dice is not a money moving facility and using it as such is deemed abuse. Abuse of our financial system is clearly specified in our T&C and this is a schoolbook example. Mind you that we are not even charging you the full cost of the transaction. You have via email clearly been told that you have to either accept the cost of these transactions (after which your account will indeed be suspended) - or generate at least a minimum amount of play.

I'm forwarding the message to Bryan and you should realize that casinomeister is not a tool to help you enforce your abuse.

Regards,

Enzo

I would have discussed this with 3Dice in privacy, but because he have already forwarded this message to Casinomeister I have decided to answer him in public.

3Dice said:
You have deposited first 250 (to withdraw 249) - we did not stop you on that one
Why not? If you would have told me then that although you are going to process my withdrawal in full you however wish that for the future I wager more before I request a withdrawal, I would have accepted it.

3Dice said:
This is clearly abuse of the 3Dice financial system and trying to make 3Dice pay for the credit card costs you have when depositing directly into moneybookers. 3Dice is not a money moving facility and using it as such is deemed abuse.
1. I can make credit card deposits over the Moneybookers Gateway at almost any casino for free. I don't need a positive balance at Moneybookers.
2. Even if I can't do it I can still use Sofortberweisung to make an instant and free deposit into my Moneybookers account.
3. Even if I don't want to use Sofortberweisung I can make a bank transfer to my Moneybookers account for free which takes the same time like as deposit and withdraw money at your casino (1-2 days).
There is absolutely no reason for me to use your casino as "money moving facility" whatsoever!

3Dice said:
Abuse of our financial system is clearly specified in our T&C and this is a schoolbook example.
It's not "clearly specified"! How should I know what do you define as abusive and what not? Must I guess? This is a clearly specified rule from Canbet Casino:
Terms & Conditions from Canbet Casino said:
In instances where the Casino has absorbed banking fees related to a Players transaction, and the full deposit amount has not been turned over (bet through) at least once (x1), the Casino shall reserve the right to charge the player the full banking fee cost incurred by the Casino, or at least 3% of the deposit amount, whichever is the greater.
Why do you can not add such a rule to your T&C?

3Dice said:
You have via email clearly been told that you have to either accept the cost of these transactions (after which your account will indeed be suspended) - or generate at least a minimum amount of play.
This is not true! If I had known that I will be charged with 40 Euro I would have chosen to roll over the 500 Euro one time in BlackJack this would be much, much cheaper for me (even this still wouldn't be right, because no rule in your T&C forces me to do so).
 

anniemac

Ueber Meister
PABnoaccred
MM
Joined
Jan 30, 2007
Location
Texas, USA
OK, I'll play devil's advocate. 3Dice is within their right to request that you play a reasonable amount. I have done the same thing there. I deposited xamount, played and wasn't doing to good, got it back up to what I deposited and cashed out. But the difference is that I played for some time and at least half of my original deposit. What if all or half of the depositing players deposit and then withdraw? Would cost the casinos money with no chance of catching up.

And with the money laundering laws, they have to cover their a&&.
 

Casinomeister

Forum Cheermeister
Staff member
Joined
Jun 30, 1998
Location
Bierland
Most casinos require you to play your deposit through x amount of times. I don't think you'll find any that will allow you to make a deposit and then withdraw. There is the money laundering aspect of this plus the fees they have to suck up when processing payments.
 

refre

Dormant Account
PABnonaccred
PABnoaccred
Joined
Jun 13, 2003
Location
.
Why would you make a deposit of 250 and 500 and do 1 cent spins?
If you wanted to see if the slot was "hot" before high rolling you could have made 10 deposits.
I usually don't comment on how people want to play, but come on, somethings not right here.

Freddy
 

Markus

Banned User - Violation of forum rule 1.10 - playe
PABnonaccred
Joined
Aug 31, 2008
Location
Berlin
OK, I'll play devil's advocate. 3Dice is within their right to request that you play a reasonable amount. I have done the same thing there. I deposited xamount, played and wasn't doing to good, got it back up to what I deposited and cashed out. But the difference is that I played for some time and at least half of my original deposit. What if all or half of the depositing players deposit and then withdraw? Would cost the casinos money with no chance of catching up.
Most casinos require you to play your deposit through x amount of times. I don't think you'll find any that will allow you to make a deposit and then withdraw. There is the money laundering aspect of this plus the fees they have to suck up when processing payments.
If they don't want that behavior then they have to add a rule that forbids this behavior. Where is the objective criterion to determine what is enough play and what is not?
 

Markus

Banned User - Violation of forum rule 1.10 - playe
PABnonaccred
Joined
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Location
Berlin
Why would you make a deposit of 250 and 500 and do 1 cent spins?
If you wanted to see if the slot was "hot" before high rolling you could have made 10 deposits.
I usually don't comment on how people want to play, but come on, somethings not right here.
Freddy
Yes I should have done this, but I didn't expected that all of the slot machines at 3Dice are so bad paying.
 

anniemac

Ueber Meister
PABnoaccred
MM
Joined
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Location
Texas, USA
I don't know what amount a casino would use but as a personal reference, I use half of my deposit played before asking for a withdrawal. But that's just me. Maybe you should have asked Anna how much you needed to play before a withdrawal. Who knows, you might get lucky. :D
 

kmay87

Dormant Account
PABnononaccred
PABaccred2
Joined
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Location
England
How could it be money laundering? I have deposit from my Moneybookers account and I have requested a withdraw back to the same Moneybookers account.

If there was a phony credit card attached to the account, extracting money from it and resending to a different card wouldn't be all that hard, and a logical assumption someone could come to.
 

Markus

Banned User - Violation of forum rule 1.10 - playe
PABnonaccred
Joined
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Location
Berlin
If there was a phony credit card attached to the account, extracting money from it and resending to a different card wouldn't be all that hard, and a logical assumption someone could come to.
Why should I use a casino for that? I can make credit card deposits at Moneybookers directly and without a casino.
 

kmay87

Dormant Account
PABnononaccred
PABaccred2
Joined
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Location
England
I wasn't suggesting in the slightest that you did do this, but it's something I'm sure people have and will do.

Have to agree with the other comments though. depositing 500 Euro and only playing 80 odd cents before requesting a withdrawal isn't fair on the casinos' part. I can understand your view that they should have told you when you did it the first time, but for you to actually do it twice probably removes any sympathy/understanding that they may have had.
 

silcnlayc

Just one more spin pleez!
PABaccred
PABnonaccred
Joined
Sep 20, 2005
Location
Left Hungary
Why would you make a deposit of 250 and 500 and do 1 cent spins?
This is the question...and something is definitely fishy here ..no one would deposit this big of an amount to just test the slots at a penny a spin.. and then try and withdraw after only spending a buck or two..
If there was a phony credit card attached to the account, extracting money from it and resending to a different card wouldn't be all that hard, and a logical assumption someone could come to.
I agree with this...it seems money is being moved around for unknown reasons of the card holder or the account holder?? It really does not sound kosher at all..Just my opinion and "feeling" something is not right with this scenerio..


.
 

Markus

Banned User - Violation of forum rule 1.10 - playe
PABnonaccred
Joined
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Location
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Ok, then I make the following offer to 3Dice Casino: Please cancel my withdrawal (including the 40 Euro) and I will roll over my balance 5 times in Blackjack!
 

me_and_ed

Paleo Meister (means really, really old)
CAG
MM
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Location
Vancouver
I know Enzo and 3Dice, they would not do this without founded cause. Like the games or not 3Dice is one of the most reputable online casino's out there. I have made too many C2P withdrawls in a week and was asked to pay the fees, which I did not have an issue with. I personally find it difficult not to side with the casino on this one.
 

lauram

Dormant account
Joined
Feb 18, 2008
Location
toronto
The processing fee for the casinos can get costly for them and in return effects us players. If this is the case that you deposited a large some just did a few spins and wanted your funds back then the casino is at a loss from the start.
Maybe start with a lower deposit 40 50 even 20 see if the games are hitting you can always add more funds then at least you have shown the casino you deposited to play not leaving them feeling this is a way to move money around.
I have made many deposits with 3dice and within the hour asked for a withdraw without any problems but i always kept some funds in to play with. This is not the only casino that would handle this kind of playing the same way many mgs and rtg casinos ask the same from you.
Only ones i know that will refund you back without any questions ask is paddypower.
 

BingoT

Nurses love to give shots
Joined
Dec 16, 2004
Location
Palm Bay Florida
With them two little betting amounts what were you thinking?
After that first deposit & than make one after that :confused:
That would be a lot of wasted time on your part.
What Gives.:confused: It just sounds pretty crazy on you to do that.
You must have a story why?
 

Markus

Banned User - Violation of forum rule 1.10 - playe
PABnonaccred
Joined
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Location
Berlin
You must have a story why?
My plan was to start betting small in slots and then making bigger bets. Unfortunately the result of my 1 cent spins was very poor, therefore I decided not to play more and requested a withdrawal.
 

Marie2473

Dormant account
Joined
Oct 2, 2008
Location
Sweden
I am sorry, but on this one I totally agree with the casino. I am hsving a hard time understanding why you made such "large" deposit, to try it out. Not only once - but twice... and u also said that u didnt win anything BIg, well with a 1 cent bet you cant really expect that much =)
 

kmay87

Dormant Account
PABnononaccred
PABaccred2
Joined
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Just curious here...on the 500 Euro deposit, if you were playing 1c spins then you must have completed a minimum of 79 spins. Playing only one line on super high variance slots, did you really think you were going to hit big after only a few spins?
 

BingoT

Nurses love to give shots
Joined
Dec 16, 2004
Location
Palm Bay Florida
On 1 little Penny a spin?
To see if you would hit a Jackpot :lolup:
It just sounds funny for someone to do that's all.
Link Removed ( Old/Invalid)
 

Markus

Banned User - Violation of forum rule 1.10 - playe
PABnonaccred
Joined
Aug 31, 2008
Location
Berlin
Just curious here...on the 500 Euro deposit, if you were playing 1c spins then you must have completed a minimum of 79 spins. Playing only one line on super high variance slots, did you really think you were going to hit big after only a few spins?
No, I just wanted to test if I was at this moment on a lucky streak with that particular slot machine. If that would have been the case I would have raised my bets.
 

3Dice

Accredited Casino Representative
Joined
Feb 14, 2007
Location
-
Hi Everyone,

An important detail that is easily overlooked here is that Markus is in fact not doing symmetric deposits / withdraws. He is depositing with his credit card through moneybookers using an option called direct deposit. This way he hopes to withdraw the funds right away into his moneybookers account hereby avoiding having to pay for the high CC fees himself. (also keep in mind that this is a new account at 3Dice - no prior history).

Hi Markus,

A total deposit of $750 and a total stake of $2 and total wd of $748 simply says it all .. doesn't fit a player profile _at all_ .. you are trying to have 3Dice pay the fees of funding your moneybookers account with your CC. And now you are trying to use this forum and its members to enforce that on us. I fear the audience you have reached might be slightly more intelligent than you anticipate.

In the more than 2 years in operation this is the _very first_ time I have to use the T&C to settle an issue. And to think I'm not even charging you the full transaction cost. Your withdrawal is currently in approved state and you can easily cancel it from the cashier (that should also cancel the fee). I will wait till tomorrow for further processing on it so you still have the chance to play it, as mentioned twice in previous communication.

Also, let me enlighten you on why 3Dice does not have a minimum playthrough rule in its T&C. I feel it is one of those rules that only hurts the wrong people .. you win on your first spin at 3Dice, and withdraw, nobody will ever say a thing. You have a horrible session and are unhappy and withdraw at half your bankroll .. our reps will probably contact you and you with support and you would be charged no costs at all. After two years and not a single issue regarding WR's, confiscations or anything I think I can safely say our T&C are more than adequate. I'll happily refuse to hurt my loyal customers with an extra rule just to stop scenario's of abuse that are as obvious as this one.

Our T&C clearly do state that you cannot abuse the 3Dice financial system, and again, I couldn't think of a more obvious example than your history at 3Dice. This rule is more than adequate.

If you decide to play your deposit, I hope you hit big, and if not, I hope you understand that with only 40 in fee we are still paying part of the total transaction cost.

Regards,

Enzo
 

silcnlayc

Just one more spin pleez!
PABaccred
PABnonaccred
Joined
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Location
Left Hungary
I personally find it difficult not to side with the casino on this one
I too agree on this... (Now don't fall over because of this Enzo, cause many still need you!)
I fear the audience you have reached might be slightly more intelligent than you anticipate.
You also do not need to explain something so blatant as what this player was trying to do cause we are a little smarter than the average bear.. thank you ..:thumbsup: but it was nice of you to do it anyway..

.
 

Markus

Banned User - Violation of forum rule 1.10 - playe
PABnonaccred
Joined
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Location
Berlin
He is depositing with his credit card through moneybookers using an option called direct deposit. This way he hopes to withdraw the funds right away into his moneybookers account hereby avoiding having to pay for the high CC fees himself.
I have already told that this is not the case:
1. I can make credit card deposits over the Moneybookers Gateway at almost any casino for free. I don't need a positive balance at Moneybookers.
2. Even if I can't do it I can still use Sofortberweisung to make an instant and free deposit into my Moneybookers account.
3. Even if I don't want to use Sofortberweisung I can make a bank transfer to my Moneybookers account for free which takes the same time like as deposit and withdraw money at your casino (1-2 days).
There is absolutely no reason for me to use your casino as "money moving facility" whatsoever!

Also, let me enlighten you on why 3Dice does not have a minimum playthrough rule in its T&C. I feel it is one of those rules that only hurts the wrong people .. you win on your first spin at 3Dice, and withdraw, nobody will ever say a thing. You have a horrible session and are unhappy and withdraw at half your bankroll .. our reps will probably contact you and you with support and you would be charged no costs at all. After two years and not a single issue regarding WR's, confiscations or anything I think I can safely say our T&C are more than adequate. I'll happily refuse to hurt my loyal customers with an extra rule just to stop scenario's of abuse that are as obvious as this one.
You can add a rule like: "We reserve the right to charge the player with a processing fee if the player have rolled over his deposit less then n-times."
So you are not forced to apply this rule on every player, but the player who deposits at your casino is knowing the risks if he don't plan to wager the required amount.

If you decide to play your deposit, I hope you hit big, and if not, I hope you understand that with only 40 in fee we are still paying part of the total transaction cost.
Can you bindingly tell me that the 40 Euro fee is not applied if I wager my deposit 5 times (= 2500 Euro) in BlackJack?
 

SteveCut

Dormant account
Joined
Nov 3, 2007
Location
EU
Markus wrote:
No, I just wanted to test if I was at this moment on a lucky streak with that particular slot machine. If that would have been the case I would have raised my bets.

Markus, you have shown by your posts on this forum that you are a very intelligent guy and you understand something about gambling. Therefore this is clearly bullshit! No way do you believe in lucky streaks and no way would you willingly play slots without a bonus. The fact that you deposited without a bonus also indicates that you intended to do exactly what you did - twice!

Sorry mate, the game's up. maybe it's time to come clean and ask forgiveness? I for one, will miss your contributions to this forum, if it comes to that.
Steve
 
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