32RED downgrades TAB/SE

[Harry_BKK]

The question remains if they really are problem gamblers though.

Just look at this thread. Several, you included, SE'd from 32Red.
You will be listed as problem gamblers in their report, and you won't open your accounts again.

I have stated that i have closed my account with 32RED. Small difference, big impact

It should not matter though, SE was the first tool introduced to try and curb the rising problems with gambling addiction and i am sure 1000's if not 100.000's are today thankful that the tool was there as otherwise their lives might have become unrecoverable.

Whether that includes a certain percentage of people doing a SE for other reasons is not really relevant.

 

[mac72]

LOBBY UKGC??

I have an idea.

There are many with differing opinions on this thread but one thing appears to stand out and that is a majority (i think) believe that regardless of the operator the correct procedure for executing a TAB should be instant. Could we not turn this thread into something with real purpose and lobby the UKGC to change the wording of the legislation to reflect that? As someone else mentioned a lot of their procedures don't seem to be correctly thought out and as with all things new need fine tuning to close any loopholes?
We as a community should be reflective of the gambling community at large so instead of bashing 32red (or anyone else for that matter) for working within the current guidelines should we not make our feelings heard and ask that the guidelines be changed to reflect what i think anyway was their initial purpose?
If we were able to achieve that and it stopped even one Mr X swinging in the garage wouldn't we have achieved something worthwhile?
If your interested in that, I (or Bryan/Maxd or anyone else for that matter) could draft a strongly worded letter to the UKGC which all members could copy and email themselves to the UKGC and we could see if that people power could influence them? There are nearly 20,000 views of this thread in a matter of days so if you like that idea please make your feelings known by either liking this post or adding your views to the thread (or both).If you are a lurker and haven't yet signed up to Casinomeister and you feel strongly on this subject why not join now (its free) and make your feelings heard.
If i've read the situation wrong and the rest of you aren't interested that will be quickly apparent however there is no point moaning about something when you have the ability to do something about it and don't.

It would also level the playing field for all operators,as some have instant TAB at the moment and maybe feel the effects of that more than those that put people through hoops to TAB.The big danger in that i suppose may even be now the loophole has been highlighted by this thread some of those may also decide to "downgrade" their procedures.We just might be in a position to stop that???

 

[Harry_BKK]

I have an idea.

There are many with differing opinions on this thread but one thing appears to stand out and that is a majority (i think) believe that regardless of the operator the correct procedure for executing a TAB should be instant. Could we not turn this thread into something with real purpose and lobby the UKGC to change the wording of the legislation to reflect that? As someone else mentioned a lot of their procedures don't seem to be correctly thought out and as with all things new need fine tuning to close any loopholes?
We as a community should be reflective of the gambling community at large so instead of bashing 32red (or anyone else for that matter) for working within the current guidelines should we not make our feelings heard and ask that the guidelines be changed to reflect what i think anyway was their initial purpose?
If we were able to achieve that and it stopped even one Mr X swinging in the garage wouldn't we have achieved something worthwhile?
If your interested in that, I (or Bryan/Maxd or anyone else for that matter) could draft a strongly worded letter to the UKGC which all members could copy and email themselves to the UKGC and we could see if that people power could influence them? There are nearly 20,000 views of this thread in a matter of days so if you like that idea please make your feelings known by either liking this post or adding your views to the thread (or both).If you are a lurker and haven't yet signed up to Casinomeister and you feel strongly on this subject why not join now (its free) and make your feelings heard.
If i've read the situation wrong and the rest of you aren't interested that will be quickly apparent however there is no point moaning about something when you have the ability to do something about it and don't.

It would also level the playing field for all operators,as some have instant TAB at the moment and maybe feel the effects of that more than those that put people through hoops to TAB.The big danger in that i suppose may even be now the loophole has been highlighted by this thread some of those may also decide to "downgrade" their procedures.We just might be in a position to stop that???

Very good idea mac72

If i may suggest i would include in the letter the following:

1. TAB/SE are a vital part of RG (in addition to Deposit/Loss Limits, Session Reminders etc) and the player should be in control of these (meaning online available and instant) and not leave him at the mercy and speediness of the casino
2. TAB - Re-word SR paragraph 3.3.4 to ensure the process is automated, accessible via remote communication and can be activated by the player without any interference/communication of/with the casino operator
3. SE - SR paragraph 3.5.3, item 8 clearly states already that effective 31st Oct 2015: "Customers must be given the opportunity to self-exclude by contacting customer services and in addition by entering an automated process using remote communication.".

- maybe we can suggest to word it even stronger whereas it would state that the player can do it completely himself, no forms, no emails
- we should also put a list together of those casinos who don't offer the "automated process" and hand it over to the UKGC to take action as they deem appropriate
> confirmed operators not offering it: 32RED, Everymatrix

4. Include the Videoslots user interface for RG as a best example - all controls available in the players profile and can be self-set at any time by the player without any interference/communication by/with the casino operator.

I am pretty sure MG developed and embedded the RG interface, including the TAB/SE facility, specifically for the UKGC regulation changes coming into effect on 31st Oct 2015. Why else would they spend money and do the work if it is not required?

 

[mac72]

Dear All,

Firstly apologies for the time taken to reply to the thread. It was a long Bank Holiday, as Max mentioned, and I also wanted to ensure we had addressed some of the issues highlighted before commenting.

First and foremost I want to state that 32Red are committed to responsible gambling. Yes, we have made some changes to procedures surrounding the closure of accounts, but by no means are these to the detriment of player protection. We are proud to be licensed in Gibraltar, Italy and the UK and always strive to operate in a manner that is compliant with the responsibilities placed upon us.

We constantly review all aspects of our operating procedures and it was evident that our approach to Self-Exclusion needed to revert to it being a more considered and deliberate action on the part of the player. Unfortunately the existing Self Exclusion facility couldn’t be adapted, so we took the decision to reintroduce our previous process, making it available from within the gaming software and without the need to interact with anybody here in order to complete the process.

When the above change was made, we noticed that the automated Take a Break option was also no longer available, as it was part of the same application. We hadn’t realised this and had to make some fairly quick changes to ensure we could still deal with these requests in the timely manner they deserve. A dedicated email was set up (which is given top priority in the queuing system that sits behind the Help Centre) and the pages amended accordingly.

This thread has highlighted a couple of areas where we could improve this process, we have addressed some of those:

- We have now introduced a dedicated line for players who want to discuss their responsible gaming options. Our trained staff will be monitoring this line 24/7 and will be able to offer players instant changes based on their requirements.
- It was highlighted that an email link doesn’t always work if a player doesn’t have an email client installed. We have now amended this step to show the dedicated email address to enable someone using a web-based client to copy and paste it.

For those concerned about the time taken for an email to be processed, I am able to share with you that the shortest break requested over the busy Bank Holiday weekend was for 1 week – this was actioned within 19 minutes of the request being received.

It is important to remember that Take a Break is a facility that is designed to offer individuals a break so as to control their gaming and is not there, as is implied in some of the posts, as a means to protect a withdrawal from being reversed. If there are players who really can't control themselves when they are in that position, then they should contact me to see if there any alternatives available rather than using a function designed for something else. Also, regular and frequent use of a Take a Break facility could be seen as indicating problematic behaviour; we are required to intervene and interact in such circumstances and that is why it is important that the facility is used as it is intended.

Finally (sorry for the long post), the video showing the steps to live chat in the Viper software highlighted a rather unfriendly player journey which has also been addressed. Thank you for bringing that to our attention.
Regards,

Mark

I honestly don't know how the below answers the question??



Re: 32red downgrading rg
Hi Mac72,

Our public response on this matter has been posted, if you want to share what I have told you, please feel free.

Mark

Quote Originally Posted by mac72
would you mind responding to the post instead of the pm if thats ok?



Quote Originally Posted by Mark_32Red
That’s correct mac72, should we receive a plausible explanation based on our interaction then we wouldn’t take any action.
Use of this facility is one of many indicators that we track for possible interaction.


Quote Originally Posted by mac72
mark could i get a response to this post please:

I also would like an answer from mark on the abuse issue of the TAB for this reason: i used it quite a bit especially at weekends and during the week if i hit big to avoid being tempted to reverse/annoyance at the long withdrawal periods (i actually only discovered it because triliej posted about it) and i promoted its use to many other forum members (harry etc.) for the exact same reason. I don't believe there was anything whatsoever wrong in doing what we were doing but mark's post says different and i'd like clarification on that.Its not good enough just because a certain piece of legislation works against them for a Company to say the use of it is an abuse and i really don't like the inference from 32red that " regular and frequent use of a Take a Break facility could be seen as indicating problematic behaviour; we are required to intervene and interact in such circumstances and that is why it is important that the facility is used as it is intended." I would take that as nearly trying to frighten people from using it as they may end up forced down the SE route. If i was using it consistently and anyone "intervened" i'd simply point out that while i wait on my withdrawal i'm not playing anymore and i don't see that as a problem.

 

[Harry_BKK]

I honestly don't know how the below answers the question??

Re: 32red downgrading rg
Hi Mac72,

Our public response on this matter has been posted, if you want to share what I have told you, please feel free.

Mark

Quote Originally Posted by mac72
would you mind responding to the post instead of the pm if thats ok?

Quote Originally Posted by Mark_32Red
That’s correct mac72, should we receive a plausible explanation based on our interaction then we wouldn’t take any action.
Use of this facility is one of many indicators that we track for possible interaction.


Quote Originally Posted by mac72
mark could i get a response to this post please:
I don't believe there was anything whatsoever wrong in doing what we were doing but mark's post says different and i'd like clarification on that.Its not good enough just because a certain piece of legislation works against them for a Company to say the use of it is an abuse and i really don't like the inference from 32red that " regular and frequent use of a Take a Break facility could be seen as indicating problematic behaviour; we are required to intervene and interact in such circumstances and that is why it is important that the facility is used as it is intended."

Red Tape, Smoke and Mirrors mac72.

Tracked are among others:

- Average session time
- Deposit patterns and changes to them
- Significant changes in betting patterns
- Amount and reasons for comp requests
- Deposit/Session limits
- Tone and vocabulary used in the chat (chat reps will make a notice on the account)
- ....list by far not complete.

and as per Mark's statement the frequency in using the TAB feature.

However, in our view using the TAB feature = RESPONSIBLE GAMING (e.g. protecting a withdrawal from being reversed and lost) and in 32RED's view it seems to be seen more like an indicator for gambling problems, how they come to that conclusion is not comprehensible to me.

E.G. a player wants to play only once/week and activates the TAB to avoid being drawn back to play again, hence he is using it, quote 32RED: "as intended" yet because of the frequency they potentially classify him as a problem gambler. Go figure

I can only say from my own experience that in the past 19odd years of online gaming i have most certainly displayed a few times typical behavior of a problem gamblers (endless sessions, thousands or even in excess of 10K in deposits in a few hours (yes, at 32RED), repeated requests for comps to extend the session, etc etc) and not once, NOT A SINGLE TIME, did i get the honor to have an "INTERACTION" from any of the casinos i played at, nor was i asked by the LiveChat agent whether i am OK or recommending me to take a break after reviewing my account for some comps and seeing the huge amount i deposited and the time i was already playing.

Hence my conclusion is that the threshold for the "interaction" to kick in must be veeery high and a few TAB's a month would certainly not trigger that threshold.

 

[dunover]

I honestly don't know how the below answers the question??



Re: 32red downgrading rg
Hi Mac72,

Our public response on this matter has been posted, if you want to share what I have told you, please feel free.

Mark

Quote Originally Posted by mac72
would you mind responding to the post instead of the pm if thats ok?



Quote Originally Posted by Mark_32Red
That’s correct mac72, should we receive a plausible explanation based on our interaction then we wouldn’t take any action.
Use of this facility is one of many indicators that we track for possible interaction.


Quote Originally Posted by mac72
mark could i get a response to this post please:

I also would like an answer from mark on the abuse issue of the TAB for this reason: i used it quite a bit especially at weekends and during the week if i hit big to avoid being tempted to reverse/annoyance at the long withdrawal periods (i actually only discovered it because triliej posted about it) and i promoted its use to many other forum members (harry etc.) for the exact same reason. I don't believe there was anything whatsoever wrong in doing what we were doing but mark's post says different and i'd like clarification on that.Its not good enough just because a certain piece of legislation works against them for a Company to say the use of it is an abuse and i really don't like the inference from 32red that " regular and frequent use of a Take a Break facility could be seen as indicating problematic behaviour; we are required to intervene and interact in such circumstances and that is why it is important that the facility is used as it is intended." I would take that as nearly trying to frighten people from using it as they may end up forced down the SE route. If i was using it consistently and anyone "intervened" i'd simply point out that while i wait on my withdrawal i'm not playing anymore and i don't see that as a problem.

The answer is not forthcoming because basically they would be committing commercial suicide by stating it:

"We have identified that it's likely (but not necessarily) to be weaker-willed winners that would, and indeed do, use the TAB to circumvent a long pending period at weekends especially. This means the pending withdrawal(s) must be paid in full as the processing period falls inside of the player's TAB. Luckily we have discovered that it may not be necessary to provide instant player-set RG tools. Therefore to ensure we retrieve a decent proportion of our pending withdrawals back and increase average player rake, the instant self-set RG tools have been removed. We believe it likely that faced with this, a player may be put-off using TAB to ensure we pay his withdrawal when realizing their actions cannot be instantaneous. Should they still wish to proceed, then providing the impatient winner with a delayed and lengthy process will give them time to reconsider their course of action.

Publicly we can justify this policy under the premise that regular and frequent use of a Take a Break facility could be seen as indicating problematic behaviour despite the fact the player is trying to be responsible by using TAB and therefore by inhibiting the player's attempt to avoid 'problematic behaviour' we are actually assisting that very behaviour in many cases! This, however, increases profits and that is its purpose, as have been previous policy revisions regarding withdrawals."

 

[gagamel]

I don`t want to discuss SE or TAB.

Most casinos make it like this:

Me: I want to SE/TAB

CS: Thank you very much for contacting CS. Your SE is activated from now/ your TAB is activated for 2 weeks. It was a pleasure to assist you. Have a good day.

When 32red need more than 2 days to send me an email that my account is closed now and I can reopen it with a little chat I believe there is something wrong.

Close my account when I want it to be closed, OK?

 

[petro]

Sorry about the late post, I had to wait an extended time to close all my accounts.

I think if I wrote down everything I wanted to say, it would take a full page so I'll try and keep it brief.

Thanks for bringing this to everyone's attention Harry_BKK. I think you're a forum VIP.

I have requested that my 32Red account be closed, i can't support a casino that treat their customers like this.

Thanks Blathaon, that's exactly how I feel as well.



People are naturally emotional when it comes to problem gamblers and because of that there's a tendency to become irrational. And when people become irrational they run the risk of doing more harm than good. So it pays to be careful on the topic of problem gamblers.

Some people might say: As long as 32Red are within the current laws then it's okay.
I would argue that sometimes the laws are not entirely correct or complete and this is one of those times.
A recent example came from Germany; the laws surrounding rape were reviewed and it was found that men could sexually assault women as long as they left no marks or bruises. (Angela Merkel wouldn't be introducing new legislation if she didn't think there was a problem with the existing laws.)
Because of this; going solely on laws is not correct, sometimes people's common sense should be used instead.
I think there should be legislation made to stop casinos from rolling back/changing how their SE system works if it's going to be to the detriment of problem gamblers.

For what good it will do, I've contacted the UKGC and reported 32Red to them.
I told them that while I believe this casino is still compliant with the law, they've been caught red handed going out of their way to harm problem gamblers. And I listed off the evidence, the main points being; a lack of a good explanation (How could you explain away something like that?) and a clear profit driven motive. I asked the UKGC to at least watch 32Red closely.

About the point of consumption tax being the cause.
I don't think that's true and can give a couple of reasons for that:
If you would believe what Ed Ware has to say, the tax is actually benefiting them. One of the reasons he gives is that competitors have left the market.
A leopard doesn't change its spots. I don't believe that 32Red "suddenly decided" to start taking advantage of problem gamblers.
If you keep doing something, eventually people will find out and I think that's what happened.

 

[Harry_BKK]

Thanks Petro for bringing up the thread again and for talking to the UKGC.

Just as you, I think 32RED has not given any answers whatsoever to the issues raised and have not announced any changes either, which is pretty sad, to be honest.

While they probably think that all is compliant with the current legislation, morally it is certainly not when they try to benefit financially from the weakest players. Whereas the UKGC tried to put the control of the RG features into the hands of the player, 32RED took that to the best part away again.

Section 3.5.3, Paragraph 8, which came into effect on 31OCT 2015, states clearly:

Customers must be given the opportunity to self-exclude by contacting customer services and in addition by entering an automated process using remote communication.

It says "AND" not "OR". What part did 32RED interpret in any other way, that they think the automated process activated by the player is not needed???

For a few months 32RED had the automated process for TAB and SE available in the MG Viper client, an upgrade MG supplied to all its customers last year, but 32RED removed that, in my view with a clear purpose. They are now in full control when exactly a TAB or SE will be activated and not the player as the UKGC stipulates. And be it just a delay of a few hours or days, it leaves the player in question vulnerable to lose even more, which 32RED seems to be very happy to put in their pockets.

To come then to the CM forum and post statements like - "these changes are not to the detriment of the player" or "the TAB function is not to protect a withdrawal while it is pending" - shows utter and complete ignorance in regards to RG.

The many 32RED supporters that shouted here that the player has only himself to blame, should control himself, show restraint etc etc, i suggest that these supporters meet some of the families which have lost their house and livelihood, kids that have hardly anything to eat or dress with, just because one member of the family was so badly addicted. Yet where a self-activated control was available 32RED decided to take that away. I can only stress it again, a few hours or days can make a huge difference for these families.

 

[Tirilej]

The many 32RED supporters that shouted here that the player has only himself to blame, should control himself, show restraint etc etc, i suggest that these supporters meet some of the families which have lost their house and livelihood, kids that have hardly anything to eat or dress with, just because one member of the family was so badly addicted. Yet where a self-activated control was available 32RED decided to take that away. I can only stress it again, a few hours or days can make a huge difference for these families.

This part I just have to reply to because now you're going too far!

Yes, players should be able to control themselves. If they can't they either should find ways to gamble in a controlled way, or stop gambling.
This thread is about a button that was removed, and instead people will have to send an email to get their accounts closed for 24 hours.
It's not the button, or a lack of it that are making people gambling addicts. How did they survive before the button got there?

I've seen and heard and helped gamblers that have lost everything, and families where the gambler have commited suicide. I know and have suffered everything that can happen when dealing with an addict whether it's gambling or other things. I still say the same thing.

We usually say that most addicts will have to reach his bottom before he will realize he is an addict and do something about it. A button/email/24 hours or not will not do much difference. If people don't like it then they will do like you and close the account. That is fine and the way it should be dealt with.

 

[Jono777]

The many 32RED supporters that shouted here that the player has only himself to blame, should control himself, show restraint etc etc, i suggest that these supporters meet some of the families which have lost their house and livelihood, kids that have hardly anything to eat or dress with, just because one member of the family was so badly addicted. Yet where a self-activated control was available 32RED decided to take that away. I can only stress it again, a few hours or days can make a huge difference for these families.

My post is more of a clarification (with a pang of paranoia ) post rather than anything else.

I hold my hands up I for one am guilty of leaping to the defence of the casino in question and yes sometimes without seeing the 'Big Picture' - Guilty as charged, I hold my hands up.

However just to clarify, my previous point regarding Self Control/restraint, gambling beyond means was not describing the worst case scenario you describe above mate, believe me I've see close friends go down the 'out of control' route, not nice and would not wish it on anyone.

I was referring to those players who cannot hold off for 24 hours (yes, longer on weekends) but did NOT have a serious gambling problem but WERE using the reduction/removal of SE/RG/TAB options as an excuse or scapegoat for their actions at that particular time.

Those with a proper gambling problem then yes I am with you all the way every time, agree with every word you've typed!

Those who reverse and blow their withdrawal and then start screaming 'I wouldn't have lost that if I could have TAB etc' then sorry little sympathy.

Hope this makes sense, in summary I am now in agreement with 90% of this thread as a whole but have no time for those who 'Cry Wolf'

 

[dunover]

This part I just have to reply to because now you're going too far!

Yes, players should be able to control themselves. If they can't they either should find ways to gamble in a controlled way, or stop gambling.
This thread is about a button that was removed, and instead people will have to send an email to get their accounts closed for 24 hours.
It's not the button, or a lack of it that are making people gambling addicts. How did they survive before the button got there?

I've seen and heard and helped gamblers that have lost everything, and families where the gambler have commited suicide. I know and have suffered everything that can happen when dealing with an addict whether it's gambling or other things. I still say the same thing.

We usually say that most addicts will have to reach his bottom before he will realize he is an addict and do something about it. A button/email/24 hours or not will not do much difference. If people don't like it then they will do like you and close the account. That is fine and the way it should be dealt with.

Of course it will make a major difference in some cases. Imagine the 'addict' has got lucky, has won enough to sort some issues out, wants to quit on a big win? Then tries to safeguard it and feels the disillusionment of not being able to take a RG measure. Maybe it won't make a huge difference in the long run to the individual but, and this is very important, it cannot do any harm as regards that individual and that casino can it?

Unfortunately addicts are profitable for casinos, and it's all about money. What better profit-maker than a player depositing hundreds/thousands, then making a withdrawal of a similar amount in profit and then being a likely reverser is unable to make an instant RG choice to safeguard that withdrawal??

Removing (or 'downgrading' as the thread has been retitled!) RG measures can be the difference between a borderline problem gambler becoming one.

I'll say it again, the ONLY reason this measure was taken was to ensure or maintain the proportion of withdrawals being reversed, after players cracked-on that they could ring-fence them by a 48hr. TAB. Therefore the only people affected by it will be either problem gamblers, or borderline ones. For a casino to actively pursue those, well....

I think many of us have made our feelings plain as regards the ethics of this measure, to actively seek a loophole or failure in the UKGC regulations to inhibit a RG tool.

 

[nutnut]

The many 32RED supporters that shouted here that the player has only himself to blame, should control himself, show restraint etc etc, i suggest that these supporters meet some of the families which have lost their house and livelihood, kids that have hardly anything to eat or dress with, just because one member of the family was so badly addicted. Yet where a self-activated control was available 32RED decided to take that away. I can only stress it again, a few hours or days can make a huge difference for these families.

Sorry but i find this absolute ridiculous and insulting to read. This comment makes you seem like you have a agenda with 32red, how about grown adults take some response ability?

It is not on the rest of the planet to baby sit and spoon feed every adult who has addiction issues, and you trying to pull on the emotional strings is a new low for this thread. The only person who needs to meet the families affected is the person who put his family in the situation in which they lost their house and livelihood.

 

[dunover]

Sorry but i find this absolute ridiculous and insulting to read. This comment makes you seem like you have a agenda with 32red, how about grown adults take some response ability?

It is not on the rest of the planet to baby sit and spoon feed every adult who has addiction issues, and you trying to pull on the emotional strings is a new low for this thread. The only person who needs to meet the families affected is the person who put his family in the situation in which they lost their house and livelihood.

It's not the responsibility for us to look after the handicapped, the mentally ill, the sick or the unemployed is it? It's not the responsibility of us to house refugees, or provide health care for the clinically obese or make people wear seat belts, is it? But whether you like it or not we do, as a caring society.

 

[Tirilej]

It's not the responsibility for us to look after the handicapped, the mentally ill, the sick or the unemployed is it? It's not the responsibility of us to house refugees, or provide health care for the clinically obese or make people wear seat belts, is it? But whether you like it or not we do, as a caring society.

When the addicts admit that he is sick or at least his behaviour is, then we can help him. We don't help him by letting him off ''because'' he is sick.
Don't take responsibility for someone who can take it themselves. Don't help him to continue.

 

[nutnut]

It's not the responsibility for us to look after the handicapped, the mentally ill, the sick or the unemployed is it? It's not the responsibility of us to house refugees, or provide health care for the clinically obese or make people wear seat belts, is it? But whether you like it or not we do, as a caring society.

But they all play no part to what the issue in this thread is, the comparison is wrong. But lets take your seat belt one, it is their to protect you, it's the law to use it, but if you choose not to use it, it is YOUR fault. Not the car maker, or because someone never put it on for you.

If you have a gambling problem, seek help. It's is not on 32red to babysit the addicts or any casino. They provide a legal facility to self exclude, if player uses it's his choice.

 

[Harry_BKK]

This part I just have to reply to because now you're going too far!

Why too far?? I stand by my words as it is the ugly truth of addiction.

- I have taken a number of people, men and women, and dragged them personally to the bank to lock their accounts/cancel debit/credit cards and then to the next GA group to get them started on their journey to recovery.
- I have also taken wives and kids to women shelters because the addicted husband/father was not just gambling it all away but had become violent as well.

This was all in the time where there were virtually no RG measures in place. There was not even the possibility available to TAB, let alone do a SE.

If you have seen my post with the history of RG (post #329) you will know that it took the first regulatory body, in this case the UKGC, some 14 years to implement player-controlled RG measures regarding TAB and SE. Yes the button was not there until the latest addition to the LCCP came into effect on 31st Oct 2015, at which point MG supplied every customer of its software with an upgrade that now allowed the player to TAB/SE himself, handing the control over to him.

32RED had this active for a few months, Dunover, mac72 and myself have used it, so it was clearly there.

Just before Easter 32RED decided to remove those 2 features from the self-set RG console, leaving only limits, time-out etc., asking now a player to print and complete a form, send it back to them and then wait and hope they will activate it immediately. We had reports in this thread that it took between 19 minutes and 2 days to get an answer from support that the request was actioned.

In that period a problem gambler can blow out the last money left that was maybe destined to pay part of the mortgage arrears or similar, putting him into even deeper trouble that he was anyway. It would be different if it can be done in a matter of seconds by the player himself.

A few hours can make a big difference!!!

And trust me, i have reported EveryMatrix to the UKGC as well as they don't offer "the automatic process by remote communication" either. What makes is worse with 32RED that they had it active for a few months, in my opinion then realized it is hurting their bottom line and decided to remove it.

 

[Harry_BKK]

My post is more of a clarification (with a pang of paranoia ) post rather than anything else.

I hold my hands up I for one am guilty of leaping to the defence of the casino in question and yes sometimes without seeing the 'Big Picture' - Guilty as charged, I hold my hands up.

However just to clarify, my previous point regarding Self Control/restraint, gambling beyond means was not describing the worst case scenario you describe above mate, believe me I've see close friends go down the 'out of control' route, not nice and would not wish it on anyone.

I was referring to those players who cannot hold off for 24 hours (yes, longer on weekends) but did NOT have a serious gambling problem but WERE using the reduction/removal of SE/RG/TAB options as an excuse or scapegoat for their actions at that particular time.

Those with a proper gambling problem then yes I am with you all the way every time, agree with every word you've typed!

Those who reverse and blow their withdrawal and then start screaming 'I wouldn't have lost that if I could have TAB etc' then sorry little sympathy.

Hope this makes sense, in summary I am now in agreement with 90% of this thread as a whole but have no time for those who 'Cry Wolf'

Cheers mate, i might be to sensitive on this RG issue but trust me, i have seen the ugly, the bad and the really ugly bad part of what casino operators like to call "entertainment" or "recreational gaming" but is clearly a problem for many players.

The TAB is not even that serious, on the other hand the SE is a very serious issue. Players who have come to that point are clearly in big trouble already and to make them go through hoops and hurdles to get protection is just not right.

 

[Tirilej]

The worst for a gambling addict is actually to win a huge amount because that means he won't stop.
The win will keep him floating for a while but usually it just makes thing worse.

So no, I don't buy that reason either.

Good to hear that you reported EM too then because this seemed a little like your agenda against 32Red had grown too big.

 

[paul7388]

Why too far?? I stand by my words as it is the ugly truth of addiction.

- I have taken a number of people, men and women, and dragged them personally to the bank to lock their accounts/cancel debit/credit cards and then to the next GA group to get them started on their journey to recovery.
- I have also taken wives and kids to women shelters because the addicted husband/father was not just gambling it all away but had become violent as well.

This was all in the time where there were virtually no RG measures in place. There was not even the possibility available to TAB, let alone do a SE.

If you have seen my post with the history of RG (post #329) you will know that it took the first regulatory body, in this case the UKGC, some 14 years to implement player-controlled RG measures regarding TAB and SE. Yes the button was not there until the latest addition to the LCCP came into effect on 31st Oct 2015, at which point MG supplied every customer of its software with an upgrade that now allowed the player to TAB/SE himself, handing the control over to him.

32RED had this active for a few months, Dunover, mac72 and myself have used it, so it was clearly there.

Just before Easter 32RED decided to remove those 2 features from the self-set RG console, leaving only limits, time-out etc., asking now a player to print and complete a form, send it back to them and then wait and hope they will activate it immediately. We had reports in this thread that it took between 19 minutes and 2 days to get an answer from support that the request was actioned.

In that period a problem gambler can blow out the last money left that was maybe destined to pay part of the mortgage arrears or similar, putting him into even deeper trouble that he was anyway. It would be different if it can be done in a matter of seconds by the player himself.

A few hours can make a big difference!!!

And trust me, i have reported EveryMatrix to the UKGC as well as they don't offer "the automatic process by remote communication" either. What makes is worse with 32RED that they had it active for a few months, in my opinion then realized it is hurting their bottom line and decided to remove it.

I know what you are saying Harry and I agree with most of it.

But if 32RED instantly excluded the player it will make no difference to a real problem gambler. within minutes he would be trawling the net to find a casino he could sign up to and deposit at. Unless he installed something like gamblock on his computers then an instant exclusion wont really help an addict much.

But seriously I know 32RED removed the button and I don't agree with it either.

But as has already been mentioned other casinos operate the same exclusion policy but I don't see a 40 page thread about them. Many valid points in this thread but unfortunately its the same members posting that do in every 32RED thread.

Some comment on threads about other casinos but not to the extent a 32RED thread brings them out of hibernation.

Sorry but it is clear that some members have a personal agenda to slate 32RED at every chance they can get.

But final point. If someone desperately needed there account closed why email. phone the damned phone number, explain and get account closed on the spot. Even if the number costs money from some countries it would be worth it.

 

[Harry_BKK]

Sorry but i find this absolute ridiculous and insulting to read. This comment makes you seem like you have a agenda with 32red, how about grown adults take some response ability?

It is not on the rest of the planet to baby sit and spoon feed every adult who has addiction issues, and you trying to pull on the emotional strings is a new low for this thread. The only person who needs to meet the families affected is the person who put his family in the situation in which they lost their house and livelihood.

Why an insult? Why should i have an agenda???

I reported EM to the UKGC just as well. It took years to implement some decent RG measures and 32RED decides to "degrade" them. And you can be sure that all those years there was plenty of lobbying from the gaming operators against those RG measures.

Easy to talk when you are not affected. I recommend you visit once a GA meeting to hear the stories and see for yourself what gambling can do to people.

Surely, at the end of the day, an adult is responsible for himself but at some point addiction will have taken over so much of his thinking/actions that "responsible for himself" is the last thing he can be. It is a sickness, just like cancer or anything else and needs treatment to get them back on the right track.

 

[nutnut]

Why an insult? Why should i have an agenda???

I reported EM to the UKGC just as well. It took years to implement some decent RG measures and 32RED decides to "degrade" them. And you can be sure that all those years there was plenty of lobbying from the gaming operators against those RG measures.

Easy to talk when you are not affected. I recommend you visit once a GA meeting to hear the stories and see for yourself what gambling can do to people.

Surely, at the end of the day, an adult is responsible for himself but at some point addiction will have taken over so much of his thinking/actions that "responsible for himself" is the last thing he can be. It is a sickness, just like cancer or anything else and needs treatment to get them back on the right track.

Your last point is correct, but again this has nothing to do with 32red, lets make it clear the casino industry is pure filth, they all operate to take your money my money and every last penny that exists from our accounts. Some might do it with a smile and good customer service but videoslots, 32red or ANY casino all have same morals deep down.

 

[Harry_BKK]

I know what you are saying Harry and I agree with most of it.

But if 32RED instantly excluded the player it will make no difference to a real problem gambler. within minutes he would be trawling the net to find a casino he could sign up to and deposit at. Unless he installed something like gamblock on his computers then an instant exclusion wont really help an addict much.

But seriously I know 32RED removed the button and I don't agree with it either.

But as has already been mentioned other casinos operate the same exclusion policy but I don't see a 40 page thread about them. Many valid points in this thread but unfortunately its the same members posting that do in every 32RED thread.

Some comment on threads about other casinos but not to the extent a 32RED thread brings them out of hibernation.

Sorry but it is clear that some members have a personal agenda to slate 32RED at every chance they can get.

But final point. If someone desperately needed there account closed why email. phone the damned phone number, explain and get account closed on the spot. Even if the number costs money from some countries it would be worth it.

Yes Paul, sure there are plenty of other sites where somebody can sign up and lose more.

But when a player has arrived at a point where he is ready to self-exclude for the reason of gambling problems he/she will do the SE at all registered places and then no casino should make it any harder then need be and have it activated instantly.

The UKGC has not added that one paragraph just for fun, it has a clear reason.

The difference between EM and 32RED is:

- EM never had the "automated process" in place - so they are guilty of negligence in that they did not implement the latest UKGC regulation
- 32RED had the "automated process" active and removed it again - that makes it in my view even worse.

Even when you phone 32RED they will send you the form. On the website 32RED states clearly that the SE will only be activated after they received the signed form. Hence, it makes no difference if you phone them up.

 

[nutnut]

I have a friend who is gambling addict.

He is self excluded most places, banned from betting shops in his area. But he still signs up and gambles in weird new places and has charged back at casinos. He also won several jackpots or several thousand and gambled it all back.

At what point does he become a piss taking pain in the arse?

 

[paul7388]

Yes Paul, sure there are plenty of other sites where somebody can sign up and lose more.

But when a player has arrived at a point where he is ready to self-exclude for the reason of gambling problems he/she will do the SE at all registered places and then no casino should make it any harder then need be and have it activated instantly.

The UKGC has not added that one paragraph just for fun, it has a clear reason.

The difference between EM and 32RED is:

- EM never had the "automated process" in place - so they are guilty of negligence in that they did not implement the latest UKGC regulation
- 32RED had the "automated process" active and removed it again - that makes it in my view even worse.

Even when you phone 32RED they will send you the form. On the website 32RED states clearly that the SE will only be activated after they received the signed form. Hence, it makes no difference if you phone them up.

Sorry Harry if you phone them explain the situation then they will close account . I can assure you if I phoned them up and told them I had an addiction and they had to close my account right there and then as I was going to spend every penny I had and couldn't stop themselves they would close it.

They would have no choice but to do it. Maybe they would say you still needed to complete a self exclusion form but they would apply TAB on the spot for 6 weeks if you asked which gives plenty time to SE officially.

Tells you in their terms to phone and get TAB right away.

Should you wish to suspend your account(s) under the Take a Break option call us on Freephone 0800 018 3904 (+44 (0)203 589 4560 from outside the UK) or, if you prefer, email responsiblegaming@32red.com with your request. We will need to know your username and the length of Take a Break required (24 hours, 48 hours, 1, 2, 3 or 4 weeks, up to the maximum of 6 weeks only).

And really fact it tells you you can Apply TAB right away by phoning them makes these 40 pages a sham.

Ok theres no button but if someones that desperate then 10 minutes on the phone is worth it. If they cant be arsed phoning or its too much hassle then sorry but I have no sympathy at all for them.