# 32Red - Dodgy Blackjack?

#### Avatar73

##### Dormant Account
Ok, well I think the BJ at 32Red is a bit weird.

It's standard Atlantic, 2 units per hand, 600 hands required.

In the last 4 months I put in 32 for a 32 bonus. So a total of 64.
At 2 per hand, that's a 32 "unit" wallet, when betting 1 "unit" on each hand. A total of 600 HANDS is required (not units).
Every time, I have busted out on about 100-200 hands.

Do the maths there. With a "bonus" of 64, 2 per hand, chance of going bust first (ie not making a "gain") is 0.135. So the chance of busting out like that 3 times in a row is 0.135^4 = 0.0003322 or 1 in 3010?

Now, those aren't impossible odds, and I'm sure someone will jump in and say that the maths isn't quite exact, due to not meeting WR, but surely the chance of busting out even earlier is even lower? Also, the 0.865 chance of gain would presumeably include all the occasions where you drop below "zero" and then regain some, so wouldn't be quite so high if you stop at the first chance of 0.

It just seems to suck my money at the mo.

Othertimes it works the other way! Wagering 5,000 left me 350 higher than what I started with once (and the was Euro BJ!) which is well outside 2 SD!

It seems that 32Red either gives you unbelieveable poor luck or massively good luck. I either bong out and lose it all v quickly, or end up with over 100. Anyone else notice this?

#### aka23

##### Dormant account
The "chance of gain" result in the calculator you linked to assumes unlimited bankroll (mentioned in comments below calc). It is not applicable to evaluate chance of busting with a limited bankroll. Later this month, I will have a return/variance simulator which does evaluate risk of busting with a limited bankroll.

For chance of bust, I recommend risk of ruin tables such as the ones at
or at the bottom of the blackjack page on my site. Both tables indicate a risk of bust of a little under 30% for the situation you described. You can reduce the risk to less by choosing a game with 1 unit bets. I recall that a few of the BJ versions have one unit bets, but don't recall which ones.

Note that the 32 red bonus does not require 600 2-unit hands, due to doubles and splits increasing the bet size of the final hand to larger than the initial bet. Instead, it should require ~530 hands.

#### Avatar73

##### Dormant Account
Thanks!

Note that I did mention that because of busting it would be different, but certainly 30% bust makes the situation a lot more likely!

There may be some with a 1 bet option, but then those ones dont have autoplay, i think, and therefore aren't really worth spendin 2 hours plus on to squeak out a (reasonably) lower bust %.

When i win, i seem to win decent, and I'd rather win less over a longer period but spend next to no time on it, rather than squeeze more money and spend forever doing it - after all, time is money!

I also realise that you don't need 600 HANDS (I didn't mention the reason, which you have given already!). However, on the autoplay you can't specify a bet amount, and there's no easy way to see the total amount bet (logs only do per hand, so you would have to go thru each hand and add it all up).
Besides, it's worth betting an extra 70 hands ~ 140 just for the autoplay feature and just to "overbet" a bit and reduce chance of being a "bonus abuser" !

Anyway, thanks for the observations! A bust calc would be nifty. This is also why i kinda like "get the bonus at the end" schemes. This forces you to play out WR - obv you could lose a lot more in the end, but like in this case, presumeably it would decrease chance of bust to make chance of "not losing deposit and bonus" 0.85.

Does this mean, you would be better sticking in say 200 and always letting it get to the end of 600 hands no matter what? Obv you could lose more, but would you in fact more often than not, end up better off?

#### ssgtsnelly

##### Non-Gambler
PABnonaccred
avator, scroll down to the bottom of the blackjacks and look for vegas strip single deck, can do 1 on that and still autoplay enjoy

#### Avatar73

##### Dormant Account
okely dokely! Thanks for el tippo!

I'm sure the odds were worse tho? Or it didn't have autoplay? I'm sure I checked out all their offerings.

Maybe this is a new game, or maybe I just missed something!
And anyway, even if the HE is say 0.6 instead of say 0.4, the *much* lower bust rate from 1/hand probably makes up for this!

#### tim5ny

##### Non-Gambler
I like to go bust early while the sun is still shining and there's still time left in the day to do something.

#### KasinoKing

##### WebMeister & Slotaholic..
webmeister
PABnonaccred
CAG
MM
Ok, well I think the BJ at 32Red is a bit weird.

It's standard Atlantic, 2 units per hand, 600 hands required.

In the last 4 months I put in 32 for a 32 bonus. So a total of 64.
At 2 per hand, that's a 32 "unit" wallet, when betting 1 "unit" on each hand. A total of 600 HANDS is required (not units).
Every time, I have busted out on about 100-200 hands.
Sounds to me like you are trying to 'abuse' their generous monthly offer.
(Why else would a player want to wager 1200 flatbetting at BJ...?)
All I can do is ask that you please don't do that.
All that will happen in the end is that you will be excluded from future monthly offers.

Just my 2c.

#### Gaahl

##### Non-Gambler
Abuse? How is it abuse when it is allowed in the T&C?

#### ssgtsnelly

##### Non-Gambler
PABnonaccred
gaahl he is describing bonus bagging and they dont like it too much, although if you lose it all back to them on another game then im sure they are more than happy to keep letting you play

#### cslate

##### Banned User - potty mouth flaming
Be carefull

Of who has a vested interest in 32red....

#### chuchu59

PABnonaccred
CAG
PABinit
While I am sure that this is not bonus abuse, I am also certain that KK has no vested interest in 32RED. When some casinos dont pay where there are legitimate wins, he takes em off his list.

IMO this player just likes to play BJ and thinks he has a good chance of getting ahead with the bonus. I dont know about normal MGs but this game (Atlantic) sucks in the flash casino in poker rooms. Try them if you dare. Losses are almost certainly guaranteed.

#### cslate

##### Banned User - potty mouth flaming
hang it up....no matter what you say about 32red......they are the best.

lol

it seems some people here have a monetary intrest......

go some where else if you want an unbiased opinion of 32red.

#### chuchu59

PABnonaccred
CAG
PABinit
Well, how would you feel if I told you they closed all my accounts?

#### cslate

##### Banned User - potty mouth flaming
lol

doesnt surprise me

#### Avatar73

##### Dormant Account
I like to go bust early while the sun is still shining and there's still time left in the day to do something.

Tho when you're on autoplay it makes little difference when you go bust - but when you get back from the sun it just depends if you have anything left or not!

#### Avatar73

##### Dormant Account
Sounds to me like you are trying to 'abuse' their generous monthly offer.
(Why else would a player want to wager 1200 flatbetting at BJ...?)
All I can do is ask that you please don't do that.
All that will happen in the end is that you will be excluded from future monthly offers.

Just my 2c.

Well, regular as clockwork they always invite me back for the next monthly bonus! Besides, i lost a total of 128 over the last 4 months, so why should they complain? And I always compelte the WR plus a bit extra, so its not complete abuse. And if they allow it then why not do it? If they ban me it saves me losing my 32 quid each month!

Seems if you make a winning you stand to get banned anywhere. I got banned (well, just no invite!) at river belle, cus i won a couple of months in a row. And BetFred banned me for "only playing with a bonus" despite the fact their bonus is weekly, so its a bit hard not to end up with one, and also the fact i ended up risking 1200 of my own money martingaling plus i wagered an extra 500 when their system screwed and didnt realease my money! it was obv just cus i was ahead that i got banned.

#### SlotsWizard

##### Dormant account
okely dokely! Thanks for el tippo!

I'm sure the odds were worse tho? Or it didn't have autoplay? I'm sure I checked out all their offerings.

Maybe this is a new game, or maybe I just missed something!
And anyway, even if the HE is say 0.6 instead of say 0.4, the *much* lower bust rate from 1/hand probably makes up for this!

Regarding Vegas Strip blackjack - according to the Wizard of Odds, this game has the lowest house edge of all MG blackjack variants except Classic Blackjack, which doesn't have Autoplay. So Vegas Strip is your best bet with Autoplay.

#### aka23

##### Dormant account
Regarding Vegas Strip blackjack - according to the Wizard of Odds, this game has the lowest house edge of all MG blackjack variants except Classic Blackjack, which doesn't have Autoplay. So Vegas Strip is your best bet with Autoplay.

Without composition dependent exceptions, Vegas Single Deck and Vegas Strip have nearly the same house edge. With composition dependent exceptions Vegas Single Deck is significantly lower. Atlantic City is also a good choice, as the difference in house edge between Atlantic City and Vegas Strip is <0.01%. For the purposes of the 32 Red wagering, small differences in house like this are not particularly important. A 0.01% difference in house edge works out to difference in EV of about 11 cents over a \$1200 wagering requirement, like the 32 Red monthly bonus.

#### SlotsWizard

##### Dormant account
Without composition dependent exceptions, Vegas Single Deck and Vegas Strip have nearly the same house edge. With composition dependent exceptions Vegas Single Deck is significantly lower. Atlantic City is also a good choice, as the difference in house edge between Atlantic City and Vegas Strip is <0.01%

Atlantic City is my favorite MG blackjack, mostly because of the low house edge but also because of the surrender option. I like Vegas Single Deck as well and have in the past had very good luck with it, but I don't like that feeling of hopelessness you get when you're dealt 16 vs. a dealer 10 which, unlike with ACBJ, you have little control over.

And now I will take this moment to rant against the nearly universal correct strategy of hitting a 12 against dealer 2 or 3: I HATE IT!! I get a 10 more than 90% of the time (estimate) when hitting a 12! Rant over.

#### Avatar73

##### Dormant Account
And now I will take this moment to rant against the nearly universal correct strategy of hitting a 12 against dealer 2 or 3: I HATE IT!! I get a 10 more than 90% of the time (estimate) when hitting a 12! Rant over.

Yes!!! This drives me nuts!

If you had a really large bet on, would you still hit? Say, 500+ ?

#### tim5ny

##### Non-Gambler
I don't think that 32Red or any MG casino can manipulate the software one iota! This thread should be a complaint against the software, not a specific casino. There was a time when Pat or Ed would jump on a thread like this and solve the matter quickly, quietly, and always in favor of the player... usually giving them far more than they deserved. I've noticed that they don't come around here as much anymore and who can blame them? I think there's been a few people who noticed the trend! Anyone who made a complaint on the public forum got rewarded generously from 32Red. The last episode that I can remember is when they gave a guy 500 Euros because he was making such a stink here on the forum. No strings attached. Much more than he lost. Then in the following weeks and months he did the same thing again and worked some "hush money" out of the casino again although he didn't deserve a dime. I accused him of being a greedy bastard and told him that his game was apparant to all. His reply was one of arrogance and admittance to the accusations, saying that if he could use the forum to get himself a Sweet little bonus"... then he would! I don't blame Pat for staying away from this bullshit these days. Some people just try to capitalize on his good nature.

Avatar, I don't see you really slamming the specific casino as much as the game itself... so you should've titled the thread differently!

#### Avatar73

##### Dormant Account
hahaha! Well if they offered me free money, then i wouldn't exactly say no!

But that was NEVER the intention of this thread! I'm NOT complaning as such, just it has been a bit weird, thats all. Either very high (comparative) wins, or quick busts - so im not going to complain about the wins!

No they cannot manipulate it, and I'm not saying they do. Reason tells me it's all conincidence, but I was just wondering if anyone else experienced similar.
Fair point, not a dig at 32R in any way; but that's about the only MG I do and it was there. Rename thread if you wish - be my guest!

Also, please read and note I am not slamming anything, just saying it's a bit weird. Decent wins are certainly not slamming, and i said i had these!

Anyway yeah, good point, also rubbish that people would abuse a casinos good nature not cool.

On another point, BetDirect has not been too great recently! I phoned up to change cards, and they did it only asking a username - no security or anything! Then I try to deposit and it just takes me back to the bank screen, no indication as to whether or not it worked or failed, but nothing has turned up in my account. Now I have mysteriously been charged some money, but still nothing in my account (NOTE: This amount is still "pending" so *may* be from something else anyway!). Either way, i wasn't bowled over by security, or their malfunctioning deposit screen! Now who was it that said in another thread that they get your money the same day ?

#### tim5ny

##### Non-Gambler
I did mention that you were not slamming the casino in particular.. but moreso the game in question. (and I cannot change the name of the thread!)

#### SlotsWizard

##### Dormant account
Yes!!! This drives me nuts!

If you had a really large bet on, would you still hit? Say, 500+ ?

I would be very afraid to deviate from the mathematically best play, so I would make certain I made the play with the highest EV.

#### aka23

##### Dormant account
It's a close call... so close that the optimal strategy may differ depending on the specific cards that compose your 12. For single-deck 12 vs 3, I list strategy as hit with two cards, and stand with 3+ cards. With more decks, there are also exceptions that may occur on 3+ card hands, but not enough to change a general strategy rule.

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