Casino Complaint 32red club rouge FOR LIFE

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Casinomeister

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Just a quick interjection - to the OP: I'm not sure if you read the terms and conditions of this forum properly, but there are some things you need to consider. Posting personal emails without the permission of the sender is inappropriate. Ed Ware is a member here just like you - what if he were to start posting your emails in this thread? I don't think you'd like it. Please respect the privacy of others.

This is not an "us vs them" kind of forum. Casino reps are members here and will be given the respect and courtesy like any other member. Your issue is obviously a personal one - and your badgering of the casino peeps is not only annoying, it puts people off, and makes casino reps reluctant to even get involved.

So the casino doesn't want your business. They had their reasons - so what? Move on and find another casino to play at. You're stressing out and spending way too much energy on this. I'm sure you can find better things to do with your time.
 

mac72

Threatening behaviour - PITA
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n ireland
Just a quick interjection - to the OP: I'm not sure if you read the terms and conditions of this forum properly, but there are some things you need to consider. Posting personal emails without the permission of the sender is inappropriate. Ed Ware is a member here just like you - what if he were to start posting your emails in this thread? I don't think you'd like it. Please respect the privacy of others.

This is not an "us vs them" kind of forum. Casino reps are members here and will be given the respect and courtesy like any other member. Your issue is obviously a personal one - and your badgering of the casino peeps is not only annoying, it puts people off, and makes casino reps reluctant to even get involved.

So the casino doesn't want your business. They had their reasons - so what? Move on and find another casino to play at. You're stressing out and spending way too much energy on this. I'm sure you can find better things to do with your time.

Hi could you just tell me how to find the t+c's you refer to, i want to make sure i've read the correct ones thanks
 

Casinomeister

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funnymunny

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I did start reading the thread with extreme interest, but must confess to getting bored & skim read once it seemed Op was acting like someone who'd spat their dummy (so apologies if this has been addressed)...

IMO it all seems to hang on the "for life" terminology, but is it defined anywhere what this actually means? Is it for life of player, the life of a specific software release, other...? Some may say this is a dumb question & you'd expect the life of the former to outlast the latter, however if it's not stated implicitly, the statement is open to interpretation and therefore pretty much a moot point IMO.

Op seems to believe that all the T's & C's are invalid as "for life" should mean for life, but where (if anywhere) is "for life" defined?
 

mac72

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You agreed to these terms when you signed up. Vortran also sent you a PM entitled "Important Information" upon signing up reminding you to read these.
https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/help/forum-rules/

Our forum policies:
https://www.casinomeister.com/forum-faq/forum-policies/

Yes thanks just wanted to make sure i was dealing with the specific terms (wasn't sure if you had separate ones for the forum etc.)

The specific t+c you are referring to i understand to be : 1.4 - No posting of privileged information. Please remember to respect other's privacy. In the public forum, do not post real names, email addresses, or other personal identifiers that may be considered privileged information; to include company "trade secrets", screenshots of company information, etc. If these items are already publicly available, this shouldn't be a problem. But if these are from private correspondence, or from some user database, discretion is advised.

I actually didn't think i was doing anything wrong here as i didn't consider the email from Ed to be privlidged for the following for the following reasons:

1) It is public knowledge that Ed is Ceo of 32red
2) There was no 'private and confidential' disclaimer in the email.Had this been from a private individual in a personal capacity i would have treaded more carefully but it was from a Company executive from his company email address
3) The content of the email did not include any company 'trade secrets'.It was simply a cordial exchange between two people who had done business over many years with me telling him that he was actually losing money because of a fault within his software and controls and him thanking me - "I am very grateful for the information".
4) The email wasn't altered or taken out of context in any way.

I used my discretion but i am quite happy to email Ed and ask him if he feels i have done him some wrong should you feel it necessary. As you say he his a member here and as such also has the right of reply in the forum.
 

Casinomeister

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Actually, I was implying the following:

1.18 - Don't be a PITA Members who just don't have a clue on what is socially acceptable, or are just too annoying will have their accounts closed. The administration and moderators of Casinomeister reserve the right to close accounts at our discretion. This may be a public forum that encourages freedom of expression, but it's still our house. Abuse it and lose it.

When you post people's private emails - you are acting like a jerk. Besides, you already broke our terms concerning posting complaints (section 2) which are crystal clear. You want to play the t&c's game? We can do that.
 

mac72

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I did start reading the thread with extreme interest, but must confess to getting bored & skim read once it seemed Op was acting like someone who'd spat their dummy (so apologies if this has been addressed)...

IMO it all seems to hang on the "for life" terminology, but is it defined anywhere what this actually means? Is it for life of player, the life of a specific software release, other...? Some may say this is a dumb question & you'd expect the life of the former to outlast the latter, however if it's not stated implicitly, the statement is open to interpretation and therefore pretty much a moot point IMO.

Op seems to believe that all the T's & C's are invalid as "for life" should mean for life, but where (if anywhere) is "for life" defined?

I share your frustration.The original post was to identify if other club rouge members had suffered the same fate and invite discussion.However many of the subsequent posts from other members in my view required attention.I haven't spat my dummy out just responded to views i think are incorrect which to my mind is the very essence of a forum and public debate.

In relation to the terminology the definition of moot point is :A debatable question, an issue open to argument; also, an irrelevant question, a matter of no importance
By saying "the statement is open to interpretation and therefore pretty much a moot point IMO." i am assuming (and correct me if i'm wrong) that the context you are using moot in here is 'a matter of no importance' and in that context i would wholeheartedly disagree with you.
In relation to the life issue in the 'specific software release' point i think it would be generally viewed that upgrades wouldn't change the position as it is essentially the same thing even though it has been altered.Having been in business for 20 odd years i have seen many examples an easy one being that if a manufacturer where to enter into an exclusive dealership agreement with an agent for product X and during the course of the agreement and after the agent had spent time and effort promotiong and selling the product the manufacturer decided to change the colour of X and call it X1 for the purpose of negating the original agreement it wouldn't fly,it would be seen for what it was.

Many people including Casinomeister have taken the view so what move on.For my specific scenario that isn't possible as i deem myself to have suffered loss.I don't feel the need to spell it out but someone like the weatherman will get it (a for life contract that carries a positive expectation which has been reneged on before completition, crystallising a loss to the innocent party).That is not something i want to get into here it has been forced out of me by the 'move on' remarks
Anyway as i said i share your frustration at the way the thread has gone but i do think it is an important one as regardless of any of the above it shows a certain attitude by a supplier to a consumer which i don't think reflects fairly on a long standing relationship (i assume most 32red club rouge members would also have a long standing relationship) and THAT is what I wanted the thread to deal with but i have no control over what other people post.
 

mimi26

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Location
uk
Yeah just move on, people have tried and tried to explain to you that the t and c's are VERY important, you just dont like it! No matter how much you harp on you are not going to change anyones opinion, and to be honest the way you are conducting yourself appears a little desperate, so what you wont get the same bonuses or WR that comes with club rouge, but you will still get them they might not be to your liking so close your account and move on.

I dont feel 32 red have done anything wrong here and no matter how many legal precedents you post it still wont convince me
 

mac72

Threatening behaviour - PITA
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Location
n ireland
Actually, I was implying the following:



When you post people's private emails - you are acting like a jerk. Besides, you already broke our terms concerning posting complaints (section 2) which are crystal clear. You want to play the t&c's game? We can do that.

Again i apologise, i did not realise you were implying that.I was trying to deal specifically with the "Posting personal emails without the permission of the sender is inappropriate. " and clarify that i did not feel the email which i posted of Ed's was personal.If it had said "posting emails without the permission of the sender is inappropriate" i would have taken a different viewpoint.I am sorry for any confusion
 

maphesto

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I am now totally convinced, the reason for mac72's lost CR membership is his annoying behaviour. I can't see any other reason. He's a high roller and they have probably earned a lot of money from him the last 8 years. But, he probably contacted them several times a day which they finally couldn't stand.

@mac72

Convince me I'm wrong, let this go! Go elsewhere with your money, there are probably many casinos who want your business. For a couple of years. ;)
 

mac72

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I am now totally convinced, the reason for mac72's lost CR membership is his annoying behaviour. I can't see any other reason. He's a high roller and they have probably earned a lot of money from him the last 8 years. But, he probably contacted them several times a day which they finally couldn't stand.

@mac72

Convince me I'm wrong, let this go! Go elsewhere with your money, there are probably many casinos who want your business. For a couple of years. ;)

The reply from 32red stated "in closing XXXX, whilst I understand this is frustrating, the decision to remove your Club Rouge status is final. We perhaps optimistically hope that this hasn’t soured your opinion of the casino too much and will continue to montitor your gaming if you do. ".
If the position was as you say it is it wouldn't be solved by removing CR status (probably actually exasperate it) instead it would be remedied by closing the account (and determining the contract) .That has not happened so i hope that provides clarification for you
 

funnymunny

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In relation to the terminology the definition of moot point is :A debatable question, an issue open to argument; also, an irrelevant question, a matter of no importance
By saying "the statement is open to interpretation and therefore pretty much a moot point IMO." i am assuming (and correct me if i'm wrong) that the context you are using moot in here is 'a matter of no importance' and in that context i would wholeheartedly disagree with you.
For sake of clarity (and seeing as you requested correction), you assumed incorrectly… I was using the context that the point is debatable and open to argument. (I thought I clarified this in my original post by asking where “for life” is defined(?)).


In relation to the life issue in the 'specific software release' point i think it would be generally viewed that upgrades wouldn't change the position as it is essentially the same thing even though it has been altered.
Have you seen release notes for any software upgrades that have been undertaken? It would appear you're assuming that not much has been altered, but I'm going to hazard a guess that you are doing so without any basis of fact.


Having been in business for 20 odd years i have seen many examples an easy one being that if a manufacturer where to enter into an exclusive dealership agreement with an agent for product X and during the course of the agreement and after the agent had spent time and effort promotiong and selling the product the manufacturer decided to change the colour of X and call it X1 for the purpose of negating the original agreement it wouldn't fly,it would be seen for what it was.
Irrelevant… In your example, you are implying that 32Red are a manufacturer & you are the dealer/agent & this is not the case. (Not saying you're contradicting yourself, but in your final paragraph you stated that they are a supplier and you are a consumer).

They have (as per their published t’s & c’s) changed the way they choose to deal with their consumers. Remember, you chose to accept these t’s & c’s when you registered with them.


Many people including Casinomeister have taken the view so what move on.For my specific scenario that isn't possible as i deem myself to have suffered loss.
Seriously?! Based on what you’ve shared about your deposits & withdrawals, it would appear that their business stands to be the ones who will be (financially) worse-off.


I don't feel the need to spell it out but someone like the weatherman will get it (a for life contract that carries a positive expectation which has been reneged on before completition, crystallising a loss to the innocent party).
No matter how many times you try to dress-up the definition of what your interpretation of what “for life” means, my previous point still stands… Where is it defined what “for life” means? (You have previously stated you’ve “been in business for 20 odd years” and seen “many examples”, so you will no doubt be acutely aware that agreements will have clear definitions of any key terminology, so as to remove any areas that are open to misinterpretation. If it is not defined, I refer back to my original statement that this is a moot point (i.e. debatable and open to argument)).


That is not something i want to get into here it has been forced out of me by the 'move on' remarks
Anyway as i said i share your frustration at the way the thread has gone but i do think it is an important one as regardless of any of the above it shows a certain attitude by a supplier to a consumer which i don't think reflects fairly on a long standing relationship (i assume most 32red club rouge members would also have a long standing relationship) and THAT is what I wanted the thread to deal with but i have no control over what other people post.


Not wishing to add to anyone’s frustration (inc my own), I will now step back from my keyboard. We are all entitled to an opinion & I appreciate that you’re expressing yours in a way you see fit. However please remember that just because you say something, it doesn’t mean you’re right. (I’m not saying I, or anyone else here is either – we’re offering a view on your situation. You may not like it, but it doesn’t mean we’re wrong).
 

mac72

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Location
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For sake of clarity (and seeing as you requested correction), you assumed incorrectly… I was using the context that the point is debatable and open to argument. (I thought I clarified this in my original post by asking where “for life” is defined(?)).

The way it was written drove me to the 'assumption' that you meant moot to be the end of the matter not the beginning but thanks for correcting my assumption.



Have you seen release notes for any software upgrades that have been undertaken? It would appear you're assuming that not much has been altered, but I'm going to hazard a guess that you are doing so without any basis of fact.

I'm going by the fact that over the years there have been many software updates but the basis of the 'games' haven't changed.Regardless of different slots or video poker being released there could be only one example i can think of where it could possibly be valid and that would be if something was launched that gave a signifigant advantage to the player and before release they stated that it wouldn't form part of any agreement as it was a signifigant change.Anyway with all the software upgrades that have happened my (and i can only speak for myself) club rouge wagering requirements haven't changed so if its not fact its certainly custom and practice

Irrelevant… If I understand your example, you are implying that 32Red are a manufacturer & you are the dealer & this is not the case. You state yourself in your final paragraph that they are a supplier and you are a consumer. They have (as per their published t’s & c’s) changed the way they choose to deal with their consumers. Remember, you chose to accept these t’s & c’s when you registered with them.

No thats not correct.I'm not tying it down to a manufacturer/dealer arrangement only showing you an example of how varying the product slightly the subject of the agreement dosen't necessarily negate the agreement.



Seriously?! Based on what you’ve shared about your deposits & withdrawals, it would appear that their business stands to be the ones who will be (financially) worse-off.

Again completely wrong and not thought through:here are some scenarios where they win:
1) I die one year into the agreement having lost 10k due to variance ,they win
2) I run out of money (for whatever reason) and can't continue and the position at this point is i'm down - they win
3) I have an edge but i'm an addictive gambler , won't matter what happens in that scenario they will always win
4) I'm behind and they go out of business ,they win (not my fault they closed up shop)
i could write these for ages but thats enough , theres no GUARANTEE that either party will win (thats why its fair) and thats why its called gambling



No matter how many times you try to dress-up the definition of what your interpretation of what “for life” means, my previous point still stands… Where is it defined what “for life” means? (You have previously stated you’ve “been in business for 20 odd years” and seen “many examples”, so you will no doubt be acutely aware that agreements will have clear definitions of any key terminology, so as to remove any areas that are open to misinterpretation. If it is not defined, I refer back to my original statement that this is a moot point (i.e. debatable and open to argument)).

Completely agree its open to argument ,if nothing ever was the world would be a better place.
I have an idea and its for everybody to make their own mind up but this post has got quite lengthy and i've already stated what my intention of it was (again i reiterate its not for me to tell anybody what to post). Why instead of debating my argument with 32red don't we just see if any other club rouge member comes forward with the same complaint.As already stated by other members this isn't a court of law but again i stress post away if you feel the need to, its your right.





Not wishing to add to anyone’s frustration (inc my own), I will now step back from my keyboard. We are all entitled to an opinion & I appreciate that you’re expressing yours in a way you see fit. However please remember that just because you say something, it doesn’t mean you’re right. (I’m not saying I, or anyone else here is either – we’re offering a view on your situation. You may not like it, but it doesn’t mean we’re wrong).

I'm not for one minute saying i'm right i stating my opinion and when it is disagreed with trying to qualify it
 

petro

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No matter how many times you try to dress-up the definition of what your interpretation of what “for life” means, my previous point still stands… Where is it defined what “for life” means?
For example, I've seen commercials that say you can win a "lifetime" supply of beer. But when you check the fine print it says you get 1 carton of beer every month for a year.
In my opinion; it's false advertising. They make it sound better than it actually is.

I have another one here as well; "lifetime warranty." They mean for the lifetime of the product sold. This I feel is a reasonable definition of the word "lifetime."

And this touches on another topic; the "Till death do us part" discussion. I know at least one (probably two) people that have taken this literally. :eek2:

Then again, I think I'm deviating from the main topic. Sorry!
 

mac72

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For example, I've seen commercials that say you can win a "life time" supply of beer. But when you check the fine print it says you get 1 carton of beer every month for a year.
In my opinion I think it's false advertising. They make it sound better than it actually is.


Completely correct they kill you in the fine print.However there is no such fine print on the loyalty page stating "your status is set to club rouge for life" (maybe the weatherman can back me up on that one). The terms that everyone trys to refer to which in their opinion covers the casino are:
The casino may, at their sole discretion, limit the eligibility of customers to participate in this promotion, for any reason whatsoever without notice to the end users. No correspondence will be entered into. 32Red's decision will be considered final in the event of a dispute.
The casino reserves the right to modify, alter, discontinue or terminate this promotion at any time for any reason whatsoever without notice to the end users, using reasonable efforts to provide such notice in advance


Under normal circumstances that would be fine (however it does actually give them the right to discontinue the promotion when your half way through playing a club rouge bonus if you believe its valid so under it you are at their mercy 24/7).The problem is the 'for life'. Because of that no-one here can 100% guarantee that the above terms are enforceable as they would be conflicting terms.Even if you can't qualify 'life' at this stage your too early to be speaking in absolutes and i find their explanation (if you can call it an explanation) for it being there very thin.

And all of that is in my opinion a matter for another day.

I'm going to try and limit my responses (as much as possible) to club rouge members who come forward with the same problem (and so far there haven't been any) from now on as stated previously that was my intent so because i may not reply to every post in future does not mean i agree with its content.If this is a case that i am the only one to have recieved this treatment it is up to you decide how you view it (and some of you obviously view it as perfectly fair) and it is up to me how to deal with it.
 

vinylweatherman

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Completely correct they kill you in the fine print.However there is no such fine print on the loyalty page stating "your status is set to club rouge for life" (maybe the weatherman can back me up on that one). The terms that everyone trys to refer to which in their opinion covers the casino are:
The casino may, at their sole discretion, limit the eligibility of customers to participate in this promotion, for any reason whatsoever without notice to the end users. No correspondence will be entered into. 32Red's decision will be considered final in the event of a dispute.
The casino reserves the right to modify, alter, discontinue or terminate this promotion at any time for any reason whatsoever without notice to the end users, using reasonable efforts to provide such notice in advance


Under normal circumstances that would be fine (however it does actually give them the right to discontinue the promotion when your half way through playing a club rouge bonus if you believe its valid so under it you are at their mercy 24/7).The problem is the 'for life'. Because of that no-one here can 100% guarantee that the above terms are enforceable as they would be conflicting terms.Even if you can't qualify 'life' at this stage your too early to be speaking in absolutes and i find their explanation (if you can call it an explanation) for it being there very thin.

And all of that is in my opinion a matter for another day.

I'm going to try and limit my responses (as much as possible) to club rouge members who come forward with the same problem (and so far there haven't been any) from now on as stated previously that was my intent so because i may not reply to every post in future does not mean i agree with its content.If this is a case that i am the only one to have recieved this treatment it is up to you decide how you view it (and some of you obviously view it as perfectly fair) and it is up to me how to deal with it.

Didn't you get told that it would only come into effect next month?

If so, they would not have terminated the deal for any "dish of the day", as these promotions only last for one day.

Are you mad because your birthday is just after the date of booting?

They have not closed your account, but it seems pretty clear that it's your gameplay that has been a deciding factor in the decision, as they have twice indicated that you will be monitored for the following quarter on Gold tier, and then reviewed again as per Gold tier terms for possible Club Rouge status.

As for the intent, to create discussion, it seems that so far other members of Club Rouge who are also CM members have yet to receive this email, or have received it and are not that bothered. Clearly, more than one player has received it, so at least it's not really a direct personal "insult" to yourself.

Your response that you will jump ship to the competition is the CORRECT one, this is how businesses are taught by their customers what behaviour is acceptable and what isn't. You may well be able to negotiate a VIP deal with a competitor based on your stats at 32Red. You may even end up with a BETTER deal than you managed to get whilst still in Club Rouge.

If you look at most casino websites, beyond the front pages hosting the regular new player promotions, you will often find that they are willing to negotiate immediate VIP entry to the "right players", and often provide an email address such that players who feel they are the "right ones" can open negotiations.
 

mac72

Threatening behaviour - PITA
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Didn't you get told that it would only come into effect next month?

If so, they would not have terminated the deal for any "dish of the day", as these promotions only last for one day.

Are you mad because your birthday is just after the date of booting?

They have not closed your account, but it seems pretty clear that it's your gameplay that has been a deciding factor in the decision, as they have twice indicated that you will be monitored for the following quarter on Gold tier, and then reviewed again as per Gold tier terms for possible Club Rouge status.

As for the intent, to create discussion, it seems that so far other members of Club Rouge who are also CM members have yet to receive this email, or have received it and are not that bothered. Clearly, more than one player has received it, so at least it's not really a direct personal "insult" to yourself.

Your response that you will jump ship to the competition is the CORRECT one, this is how businesses are taught by their customers what behaviour is acceptable and what isn't. You may well be able to negotiate a VIP deal with a competitor based on your stats at 32Red. You may even end up with a BETTER deal than you managed to get whilst still in Club Rouge.

If you look at most casino websites, beyond the front pages hosting the regular new player promotions, you will often find that they are willing to negotiate immediate VIP entry to the "right players", and often provide an email address such that players who feel they are the "right ones" can open negotiations.

sorry vinyl where is my dob visible on this site?
they did say it would come into effect next month.I say there is no need to vary the contract it is for life(which has already been the subject of too much debate)
 

petro

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@ mac72 I have only read about 2 posts. But, I'm happy to read the entire thread and throw in my 2 cents.
I'm not club rouge and probably never will be so I might be able to give a balanced opinion.
 

hoff1985

Ueber Meister
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Location
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Mac, i totally agreed with you... But in all honesty, i think you're getting to far, why do you spend so much of your time now for this? All you're getting out of it is maybe your club rouge status back, but what will it help? Just look for another casino that will treat you better regarding the loyalty. I would do the same... If i get this e-mail i would send a mail back to get explanation and if they don't think they want to have you back, look for another casino. There are quite a few reliable mg's out there.

But IMHO you're not getting further here, their decision was final.... Again, i agree with your frustrtation, but this is going nowhere..... I will log-in after my vacation to check if i'm still club rouge, hope so :))
 
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