21.co.uk Casino Problem

frogrest22

Full Member
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Location
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Hello Forum and sorry for the long winded post......

I have an issue with 21.co.uk and have searched for Rep but couldn't immediately see one. If there is one please can someone point me in the right direction.

Yesterday i joined, deposited £100 and took the 100% match bonus. Just before I started playing i talked to a chat rep and requested a deposit limit on my account. I played for several hours I made the play-through requirements, within the bonus requirements and made a withdrawal of £830. As soon as i made the withdrawal i sent in my ID verification documents and received an email to say this morning to say they were reviewing them.

Earlier today i tried to login into my account to find it was locked. I contacted support via email to ask why but no response. I have now spoken with live chat...

The chat rep first informed me that i am self excluded on their network. Reading their terms (dated 4th Feb 2015) i could find nothing that references a network of casinos. They are citing this clause: "1.1 This agreement governs the relationship between ‘You’ and Intellectual Property and Software Ltd ("IP&S", “we”, “us” or “our”) when you access and use our Service(s) (as defined below)." with "US" being the definitive word. Now i know that i have self excluded from a casino on the network list that they gave me, but as said previously nowhere does it reference any other casino and that self exclusion applies to a network of casinos in their terms. Apparently the word "US" in the terms allows them to refer to their network and casinos in it. In my opinion this is BS.

Not that i am skeptical of casino industry (note sarcasm), I have been a long time lurker here, so i am aware of the things that go on, but i am pretty sure that if i had lost my deposit my account would still be open.

My further conversation with the chat rep confused me when she said: "We must refund any deposit made after a self exclusion has taken place, however, self excluded players never have winnings paid out to them, so I would have to contact the finance team, to arrange for them to contact you to arrange a refund.This was requested at 9.24 this morning" I certainly never requested a SE. She followed with "The notes do not say if it was via live help or email. I can send your details to our fraud and risk to team to track the IP address the request came from if you would like me to. If we can proove that it came from an address you have never used before, we will be able to reopen the acount?" then that "When you have requested a withdrawal and then self exclude, the withdrawal goes through as normal, however, as I mentioned earlier, if you would like me to I can request our tech support team track the IP address and overturn the self exclusion if we can prove it wasn't from you?"

At this stage i am completely baffled..... so according to my timeline i requested a withdrawal at 2am then a mystery SE was placed on my account at 9:34am (i presume by the casino themselves), so according to the chat hosts last statement i should be paid?! however the withdrawal is showing as cancelled at her end and cannot see the funds in my account.

Can anyone offer any advice on the best way to proceed to get my withdrawal? If you want any further information please let me know.

I will attach me chat conversation in a reply for reference, as you see i they offered to return my deposit, however i want my £830 withdrawal.......the chat host disappeared after a while.

Thank you.
 

frogrest22

Full Member
PABnoaccred
PABnononaccred2
Joined
Mar 16, 2012
Location
Scotland
Chat Transcript

info: at 20:46:16
Please wait for a site operator to respond.
info: at 20:46:29
You are now chatting
Kirsty: at 20:46:40
Good Evening, my name is Kirsty, how can I help?

you: at 20:47:05
Hello, my account is locked, can you please tell me why? account xxxxxxx
Kirsty: at 20:47:49
Thanks, one moment please
Kirsty: at 20:51:46
OK, you have self excluded one of your accounts on our network, which is why all of your accounts are now self excluded.

you: at 20:52:34
what network?
Kirsty: at 20:52:57
The network of our sites

you: at 20:53:03
there is not indication of the casino being associated with any other casino
you: at 20:53:19
please show in the terms and conditions where it says this?
Kirsty: at 20:53:53
In the terms and conditions it states 'us' indicates all sites under IP&S

you: at 20:54:10
so what happens to my withdrawal?
you: at 20:54:54
give me the clause number in the terms?
you: at 20:55:58
please also give me the names of all the casinos in your network?
you: at 20:56:13
this is just an excuse not to pay my withdrawal
Kirsty: at 20:56:21
I can certainly find it for you. In regards to your withdrawal, it is showing as cancelled, which means it has been cancelled from your account. I will send your details to our finance team, who will be able to arrange any refunds of your deposited funds. One moment and i'll get you a full list.

you: at 20:58:42
not really acceptable, as i sure if i had lsot you would have not refunded it.
Kirsty: at 21:00:02
We must refund any deposit made after a self exclusion has taken place, however, self excluded players never have winnings paid out to them, so I would have to contact the finance team, to arrange for them to contact you to arrange a refund.

you: at 21:00:57
we and when am i self excluded? I talked to a member of your team last night and nothing was mentioed
Kirsty: at 21:02:26
This was requested at 9.24 this morning

you: at 21:02:59
the self exclusion?
Kirsty: at 21:03:51
YEs

you: at 21:05:05
who requested the self exclusion ?! it certainly wasn't me!
you: at 21:05:15
i was at work!
Kirsty: at 21:06:05
Does anyone else have access to your account information?

you: at 21:06:26
no
you: at 21:06:37
how was the self exclusion requested?
Kirsty: at 21:07:55
The notes do not say if it was via live help or email. I can send your details to our fraud and risk to team to track the IP address the request came from if you would like me to. If we can proove that it came from an address you have never used before, we will be able to reopen the acount?

you: at 21:08:53
ok
you: at 21:11:24
i sent an email a 2.03am this morning with my ID documents, a support member named Chris responded at 8:26am and i responded 13:29pm, at no time did i ask for self exclusion
you: at 21:11:49
why would i ask for self exclusion with a withdrawal of £830 pending?
Kirsty: at 21:13:35
When you have requested a withdrawal and then self exclude, the withdrawal goes through as normal, however, as I mentioned earlier, if you would like me to I can request our tech support team track the IP address and overturn the self exclusion if we can prove it wasn't from you?

you: at 21:15:09
yes it wasn't from me. But with what you have just written even i did self exclude (which i didn't) the withdrawal would still be processed?
Kirsty: at 21:15:33
YEs

you: at 21:15:41
so why was it cancelled?
Kirsty: at 21:17:51
It is showing as cancelled from your account, when we cancel a withdrawal, it shows as reversed.

you: at 21:18:14
i am so confused
you: at 21:18:31
so is the money in my balance?
Kirsty: at 21:19:34
It usually takes 24 hours to transfer back to your balance, then we cn request a refund back to your bank

you: at 21:20:21
sorry i do not follow, this is very strange.
you: at 21:21:43
ok lets start from the beginning. you said that i was excluded on your network. Please give me the exact clause in your terms that states that exclusion applies to all casinos on your network?
you: at 21:22:03
followed by a list of casinos on your network?
Kirsty: at 21:22:17
One moment please and I'll find it for you.

you: at 21:24:05
ok thank you
Kirsty: at 21:26:59
This agreement governs the relationship between ?You? and Intellectual Property and Software Ltd ("IP&S", ?we?, ?us? or ?our?) when you access and use our Service(s)

you: at 21:27:21
what is the clause number
Kirsty: at 21:27:31
21.co.uk
Kirsty: at 21:27:31
Bingofriends
Kirsty: at 21:27:31
BetUK
Kirsty: at 21:27:31
Bingo ie
Kirsty: at 21:27:31
BingoGodz
Kirsty: at 21:27:31
Bingos
Kirsty: at 21:27:31
Bingo Today
Kirsty: at 21:27:31
Bingostars
Kirsty: at 21:27:31
Bingoloopy
Kirsty: at 21:27:31
Bingos
Kirsty: at 21:27:31
Castlejackpot
Kirsty: at 21:27:31
Casinoreal
Kirsty: at 21:27:31
Crown Bingo
Kirsty: at 21:27:31
Crazy Bingo
Kirsty: at 21:27:31
Euromillions
Kirsty: at 21:27:31
Health Bingo
Kirsty: at 21:27:31
Pinkcasino
Kirsty: at 21:27:31
Rosa Casino
Kirsty: at 21:27:31
Simply Bingo
Kirsty: at 21:27:31
Slotaway
Kirsty: at 21:27:31
SlotbossSE
Kirsty: at 21:27:31
SlotbossUK
Kirsty: at 21:27:31
SlottoUK
Kirsty: at 21:27:31
STV
Kirsty: at 21:27:31
Svenskacasino
Kirsty: at 21:27:31
Svenska Bingo
Kirsty: at 21:27:31
Plus any future site operated by IP&S Alderney Ltd
Kirsty: at 21:27:44
1.1

you: at 21:28:31
ok thank you
you: at 21:29:27
now please tell me where it says that if you are self excluded at any casino on the network you are excluded for all casinos?
Kirsty: at 21:30:27
Under responsible gambling laws of Britain

you: at 21:31:23
but not in your terms?
Kirsty: at 21:31:42
No, its British Law?

you: at 21:33:00
hmmm..,...
you: at 21:34:19
vague to say the least.
you: at 21:34:35
so what why is the best to proceed to get my withdrawal?
you: at 21:40:56
?
you: at 21:46:59
hello?
you: at 21:47:19
can you tell me when the withdrawal was cancelled?
you: at 21:52:17
hello?
 

Valhalla

The Professional
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Location
Northern Ireland

frogrest22

Full Member
PABnoaccred
PABnononaccred2
Joined
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Location
Scotland
Thanks guys for your immediate feedback.

I am aware of PAB system, however i believe I have already used my "one free shot" at a non accredited casino. However that PAB went nowhere, i am not even sure the casino responded, so i am unsure if i can submit another one? :confused:
 

Valhalla

The Professional
MM
Joined
Jan 17, 2014
Location
Northern Ireland
Thanks guys for your immediate feedback.

I am aware of PAB system, however i believe I have already used my "one free shot" at a non accredited casino. However that PAB went nowhere, i am not even sure the casino responded, so i am unsure if i can submit another one? :confused:
I don't quite follow. I'm sure there are loads of people who have submitted several PABs during their time here, and the links I posted do point out that when you see (for example):
"PAB 2" it means they have had 2 successful PAB's for non-accredited casinos (and 3 and so on and etcetera).

I don't think you are limited to 1. And you don't pay, so there's no "one free shot".
 

frogrest22

Full Member
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Location
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I don't quite follow. I'm sure there are loads of people who have submitted several PABs during their time here, and the links I posted do point out that when you see (for example):
"PAB 2" it means they have had 2 successful PAB's for non-accredited casinos (and 3 and so on and etcetera).

I don't think you are limited to 1. And you don't pay, so there's no "one free shot".
Under section "1.2 Q: Under what circumstances would my Pitch-A-Bitch NOT be accepted" in the PAB FAQ's it states: "you have submitted a PAB in the past and the casino you want to PAB against now is not on the Accredited Sites list."

Under section "2.7 Q: What is the "One Free Shot" rule? it states "A: Your first PAB can be on any casino except, generally speaking, those listed in the Rogue Pit or on the "No Can Do" list. Only under special circumstances will PABs against Rogued or NCD casinos be considered.

The One Free Shot policy means that any subsequent PABs from you will only be accepted if they concern sites that are on the Accredited Casino list.

In other words after their first PAB Casinomeister members are expected to know about the Accredited Casino list, the Rogue Pit and the "No Can Do" list. These listings are there to inform players of sites that are trustworthy and those that are not. So after the first PAB Casinomeister members are expected to proceed with all due caution: if you insist on playing at dodgy and/or un-Accredited sites then (generally speaking) you're on your own if you run into problems."



Based on these FAQ's/rules i don't think i am entitled to another PAB, unless MaxD deems that as my previous PAB went nowhere so i can submit another PAB.......
 

Valhalla

The Professional
MM
Joined
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Location
Northern Ireland
I see.

Sorry, I've been pretty lucky in my casino career. I've never had to PAB for any reason (never even been close), so only have a surface-level knowledge of the PAB service.
I still believe you should give it a go. If everything I'm reading is true, you definitely have grounds to submit one. AND I don't see how one would build up a "PAB 3" (or beyond) if they only get 1 free shot at any casino.
 

spintee

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webby
mm2
Joined
Mar 21, 2012
Location
Northants
You can take a look here, ipsalderney.com There is an email addy at the bottom of the page,

So have you ever SE yourself from any of them sites in the past? Or are they saying it was done after the deposit?

Live chat with these people is like talking to brick a wall, I have had may chats with the same person,
 

frogrest22

Full Member
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Location
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Valhalla - i am glad to here that you haven't experienced any issues, long may it continue!

Spintree - yes, i believe i have self excluded from one of the casinos in their 'network' that isn't identified on their site. But as you will see from the chat correspondence they say my account was self excluded at 9:34am today!

To be completely honest on occasions i stray from my regular (accredited) haunts and get attracted by sign up promotions with reasonable wagering. I will normally make a few deposits at that new casino and if i get the feeling that i am not getting any decent playtime (deposits being eaten very quickly etc.) and no sign of me ever reaching my withdrawal threshold i normally close the account; sometimes the quickest way to do that is to hit the SE button.

I have sent an email to casino tonight and i will wait for a response, i will give then until 5pm tomorrow for positive progress before submitting a PAB and give MaxD the discretion to accept it or not.
 

spintee

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Location
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If you have self excluded before than theres not much really you can do, One thing I would look at is when you did SE and look at all there other sites that you mite have played after that SE date, You might be due a refund from them,

I used to play across there sites and still do occasionally but there was nothing but error and terrible lag and most of the CS was useless, I can say I have had about 40 - 50 withdraws from them ranging from 25 - 300 and always got money with out any probs, but they do have a few days pending,

I do not no why she said that time about the SE but as I said they are clueless, Let us now how it goes,
 

spintee

Ueber Meister
webby
mm2
Joined
Mar 21, 2012
Location
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I think she is just saying a request for finance to contact you was made at 934am, not the SE request??

Hope you get paid tho
Yes looking back you are right, I do not no why I missed that. Without a dout the OP will get there deposit/s back, As I pointed out I would find the date the SE started and see if they have deposit on any of there brand since
 

frogrest22

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An update.....

Today the casino responded and indicated that I had a permanently self exclusion from Bet UK account back in February 2013; Bet UK is one of the casinos in their elusive "network". 21.co.uk have returned my deposit.

I am not going to submit a PAB as the casino has made their position clear.

A lesson learned.....
 

spintee

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webby
mm2
Joined
Mar 21, 2012
Location
Northants
An update.....

Today the casino responded and indicated that I had a permanently self exclusion from Bet UK account back in February 2013; Bet UK is one of the casinos in their elusive "network". 21.co.uk have returned my deposit.

I am not going to submit a PAB as the casino has made their position clear.

A lesson learned.....
Please do check if you have made a deposit in there group since the Feb 2013, If so you would be entitled to them deposits back also,
 

needhelp21

Banned User - violation of <a href="http://www.cas
Joined
Mar 15, 2015
Location
newcastle
Sorry you were unable to get the payout mate. You have helped me however, I have noticed that I have played at 2 of those sites after excluding from one of their other sites. I'm on Live Chat with them now asking for my money back. I'll paste it into here in due course.
 

needhelp21

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Joined
Mar 15, 2015
Location
newcastle
info: at 17:08:08
Please wait for a site operator to respond.
info: at 17:08:41
You are now chatting
Maria: at 17:08:49
Good evening, my name is Maria. How may I help you?
you: at 17:08:55
Hi
you: at 17:09:40
I have been reading on casinomeister about a player that had his winnings cancelled and deposit returned at 21.co.uk because he was excluded on another site in the IP&S network previously
you: at 17:10:18
upon reading this and realising this is the rule, I realise that I have lost several deposits on your network after excluding on one of your sites
you: at 17:10:24
and am entitled to a refund therefore
you: at 17:11:39
would this be correct?
Maria: at 17:12:06
which sites are you referring to
you: at 17:12:42
I have played at 21.co.uk, betuk and bingostars
you: at 17:13:06
and excluded from them all. but obviously i excluded at one first, meaning losses at others should be returned
you: at 17:13:16
because had i won, winnings would be voided
Maria: at 17:14:47
In order for me to assist you further please confirm your full name, postcode and the email address that will be linked to your account.
you: at 17:15:01
*******************************
you: at 17:19:00
Can you please confirm which site I excluded from first and the total deposited on the other sites since that exclusion
 

needhelp21

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Location
newcastle
Maria: at 17:20:35
one moment please
you: at 17:22:23
no problem :)
Maria: at 17:26:22
you requested your accounts to be closed, not self excluded
you: at 17:26:32
this is incorrect
you: at 17:27:00
in fact i was just refunded a couple of days ago for breaching my exclusion at 21.co.uk
you: at 17:27:12
so therefore I am entitled to refunds on the other sites
you: at 17:27:21
betuk and bingostars
you: at 17:27:42
as I was excluded from 21.co.uk prior to playing there
you: at 17:27:53
irrespective of how those were closed
you: at 17:28:55
this is IP&S rules, as shown by voiding another player's winnings for being excluded on another site on the network
Maria: at 17:29:08
which site were you refunded from ?
you: at 17:29:12
21.co.uk
you: at 17:29:33
i was excluded there before playing at butuk and bingostars
you: at 17:29:39
betuk*
you: at 17:29:54
so my deposits at those sites should be returned as per your policy
you: at 17:31:03
your full co-operation on this is appreciated as I'm keeping the casinomeister forum updated on the company's response to this issue :)
 

needhelp21

Banned User - violation of <a href="http://www.cas
Joined
Mar 15, 2015
Location
newcastle
They're claiming I made accounts at bingostars and betuk, and closed them both without depositing. As if :oops: They're clutching at straws.
 

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