$200,000 gone in an instant

[bravid00]

I am posting this in the hope that someone knows more about this problem than I do and can offer some advice on how to proceed from this point to a fair and equitable solution.
Last week I took part in a promotion offered by three casinos, Lazy Joker, Queen of Gold and Gem Lobby. The deal was vote for them @ Gambling.com and receive $5.00 in each account. I voted and submitted my confirmations and was pleased to find $5.00 in my accounts a day or two later. I went to Gem Lobby and was nearly out of money when I found a slot that was paying out pretty well. I played for a while and built my balance up until I felt comfortable playing the $1 machine. It was pretty hot too and I made enough to cash out. I thought. When I tried to cashout it said I hadn't wagered any money toward the required ten times play rule. I asked Live Chat why this was so and she could offer no answer but suggested I play Blackjack to meet my wagering quota. I went to Blackjack wagered the required amount and cashed out to ECashPay the banking instrument for these casinos. I deposited money from that cash out in another casino that utilized ECashPay, Epoch Casino. I played the slots there and was doing ok when I hit the top payout. I now threw caution to the wind and began playing Max bets in the $5.00 machine and soon had over 100,000. I went to cashout only to find ECashPay's website down for the weekend. Unable to cashout until Monday morning I continued to play at Epoch, and the Lazy Joker and finally Queen of Gold. When Sunday night rolled around I had cashed out a total of $206,400. Needless to say I was thrilled. I had spoken to support via Live Chat and telephone many times over the course of the weekend, and they reassured me that all was well and when Monday a.m. London time came around I would be able to cashout the entire 200,000 plus. Sure enough Monday came around and their website was back online. I spoke to Live Chat again and agreed that check by mail was the best way for me to receive the funds. I closed Live Chat, and went back to my account to process the withdrawal. To my dismay there now was a balance of 0 dollars showing and it said I had no transaction history whatsoever. I returned to Live Chat to ask what the heck was going on. They said that my money had been transferred back to the casinos and returned to it's balance before the Server Error that had occurred. $5.00. They didn't specify what the Error was, or exactly when it had occurred, just that it had occurred and therefore my winnings were null and void. I logged out stunned and confused.
I don't know who to turn to for help in this matter and have no idea what to do next other than pray.
If anyone can offer a suggestion it would be deeply appreciated.
My email address is [email protected], or you can post a reply in this forum. Thank you for your time.
David Denison

 

[pokeraddict]

Ecashpay=Elka Systems. In other words even if you had deposited real money, not gotten a free $5, they still wouldnt pay you. Even if it were only a couple of hundred dollars. Do a search here of ecashpay and/or elka systems. VERY ROGUE! Sorry, at least it was fun right? Any chance you have copy of live chat?

 

[bravid00]

Thanks for your reply. In answer to your ? yes I have transcripts of all of the live chat sessions most of which were at least 15 to 20 minutes in length. I keep hoping against hope that there is something that can be done. From what I hear the Meister is just the person to talk to in matters like this. I've heard he can perform miracles. And that's what I need now. Thanks again for your input, and yeah it was fun. I'm still smiling.
bravid00

 

[jyde]

The meister can perform miracles but he can't make pigs fly.

Rest assured these suckers will claim their software was temporarely defect - if you win more than $50.

Check out this old Grumble by Julie Sidwell, Gambling.com. It's 2 years old.

Brilliant Casino - Elka Systems - Brilliant Declares Software Invalid?


There, on the pages of Brilliant Casino it says in part, "Our developers have gone to great lengths to ensure that the software we produce is of the highest quality. Depending on the game, between 1 and 10 million bets are made to test the fairness of the random number generator. If the frequency of winning combinations and general payouts are within expectations, the game is passed to the Quality Assurance team of engineers. They in turn ensure that the game plays to within expected quality levels. Only when all of these tests are passed is the game made available for use by our players".

With that, once again the brilliance of gambling grumbles becomes obvious. Not only do we as players get to read how the casino intended things to work in theory, but we get to see how the casino is executing those plans in reality.

After winning $380 playing Blackjack at Brilliant Casino, Glenn was shorted $230 and phoned the casino to ask why. "I was greeted by Marie who told me I would not be paid the balance of my winnings and neither would anyone else. When I asked why she said the casino is claiming to have software problems. She laughed and giggled when I asked how that affected me".

Marie responded in part, "I did not intentionally laugh at your case. However, as the Manager of Ecash Services who provides both customer services and transactions services for Brilliant Casino, I already explained to you about your cash-in. I understand that you do not agree with our decision but the decision has been made and will not be reconsidered. I personally told you many times and you keep asking me why. Online Casinos have the right to accept or decline cash-ins. If we think that the winnings are invalid, we can refuse to consider the winnings as legitimate and therefore not pay the player."

Glenn responded, "You never offer a real reason my winnings were denied besides saying there are software problems. That, in my opinion is not an answer. That is why I keep asking why. I was paid a portion of my winnings so it shows I won money. The big question is - why aren't they paying me the balance of my winnings? I could have easily lost my deposit . Would I have gotten a full refund if that happened?"

The final response, "The reason for the refusal of payment is because of problems with the software. The games were not random like they were suppose to be. We paid $150 because that is the portion of the winnings we consider legit."

Interesting take. Marie's comments would seem to indicate it is always up to the casino to determine if winnings are "valid" and can refuse to pay at any time by declaring winnings "illegitimate", even though it may be based entirely upon the casino's performance and have nothing to do with the player. She agrees the player has a right to disagree, but that seems to be the end of the players rights.

This presents many questions, how did the casino decide $150 was "legit" but $230 from the very same Blackjack session was not?

If the software was having problems despite being tested between one million and ten million times, did everyone that lost that week, that day, that afternoon or even that hour receive a refund?

How are we to know on what day it is okay to play and trust we will receive our winnings or on what day the casino may decide our winnings are "invalid"?

The site also claims, "These algorithms are tested thoroughly to ensure that they are both unpredictable and evenly distributed thereby ensuring the highest possible level of fairness", while "unpredictable" may be appropriate here, not much about this situation seems "fair".



By : Julie Sidwell, 10/01/2001

 

[cipher]

In my opinion, there are only two ways that you may stand any hope of collecting anything from these people. In looking at their site I see that they are out of Belize and that they utilize the services of Neteller.

As much pressure as possible needs to brought to bear against Neteller as well as any regulatory agency in Belize.

Though it is a plus that you have transcripts of your communications with these people you've got your work cut out for yourself.

First and foremost is for yourself to fill out a Pitch a Bitch form. The Casinomeister is going to need every bit of detailed information you can provide on this one.

Lastly David, what I'm hearing is that this thing basically started out as a free account through a promotion offered by Gambling.com.

What I don't understand is why Gambling.com has anything at all to do with these people given their sordid past with Gambling.com. After all even the post that Jyde has posted here dates back 2 years.

You mentioned depositing through Ecash pay systems, but did you make any other deposits using your own funds prior to hitting the big one? If yes, what deposit method was used and for how much.

Welcome to the Forum

Cipher

 

[jpm]

Wow David, that was quite a run! I sure hope they do have to pay you, but don't be surprised if they want to settle for a portion of that win. I'm sure that they'd probably go out of business if they had to pay the whole thing. I can't imagine how you've managed to maintain your composure though, I'd be ready to kill someone at this point if I were in your shoes.
:mg:

 

[jyde]

These suckers has no money - don't hold your breath.

As for Gambling.com - their choice of advertisers will keep Julie busy in the years to come.

Btw. did you notice they offer Blackjack Switch? They stole the game - it's not properly licensed.

 

[pokeraddict]

gambling.com is a mess. I get more spam from them then all porn combined.

 

[jpm]

Has anyone heard anything from Julie lately? I have been emailing her, but she hasn't answered.

 

[jyde]

She's been travelling. Don't know if she's back yet. If she is - she's probably still buried in mail.

 

[rainman]

face it the money is gone. In the future try to find a legit casino before depositing.

 

[jinnia]

How in the hell does one know if a casino is legit or not before playing it? I'd like to know that myself!

You can see it posted in one place as being good, then bad at another place. No way to actually tell til you play there and see the ending results.

The attitude, I tell you!!!

People comes here in hopes of finding a solution to their issue, not to be put down or sarcastically enlightened!!!

 

[linda7]

I agree with you 100% Jinnia. Rainman has been crying over some stupid BJ hands that he played at intercasino about a year ago, yet he still plays there! What does that tell you about his ability to pick a casino?

David, I am glad that you have the copies of Live Chat. I hope with all my heart that you get every cent you have won.

Linda

 

[dave_r]

Graeme Levin, CEO of Gambling.com, only cares about the almighty dollar. If a casino is screwing around customers right and left,
and seizing money from players without justification, Graeme will continue to accept advertising from that casino.

Worse yet, when that same casino gets voted as most dishonest casino via his own poll (i.e. Golden Palace), he continues advertising them, and removes the poll from his website.

So apparently, the almighty dollar comes ahead of his moral imperative to give a damn about players.

Having set that, I must give Graeme some credit for the Gambling Grumbles area of his site. This portion of his website exposes to the con artist casinos for who they really are.

But here's the irony:

On Gambling Grumbles, Julie will discredit a casino for not being honest and upfront with customers.

And yet on his front page, he will contnue to display banner ads for the exact same casino.

Hypocracy!

 

[jinnia]

His above post was left at 01:54 am .. then 10 minutes later (02:04 am) he leaves this::

((rainman...they are crypto too but not listed here. admin are they ok? I am up a little at bj. So far seem very fair but Who knows?))

last three words of that ::
'but, who knows?'
EXACTLY!!!!

I'm through now!

 

[jpm]

I always wondered about that Dave, I noticed banners there for casinos that I thought were crooked, but thought there must be some reason they are still advertising them there. I guess I just didn't think it would be for the money alone. I thought that they were all trustworthy casinos if they were advertised on gambling.com, especially because of the gambling grumbles area. I think I have a much more jaded eye for these things now.

 

[jetset]

Julie is an employee of Graeme Levin, and for my money her integrity and track record for objective resolution of player complaints and the reports that follow these is impressive and well proven.

But Levin owns and calls the shots at Gambling.com and my perception is that GG is for him more a site attraction than a serious commitment to players. Having said that, to be fair you have also to note that he does not as far as I can see hobble Julie in carrying out her duties.

He may continue to advertise bad casinos, but he also does not interfere in the often damning reports Julie issues on some of his advertisers.

 

[bravid00]

First and foremost I want to thank you all for your replies. Your input and words of encouragment (for the most part) have given me new hope.
*pokeraddict-the more I look into ECashPay and Elka Systems the worse it gets. Yeah Buddy I'm having some fun now.
*jyde- I've been hearing a lot about Julie both here and at WinnerOnline. I understand she really knows her stuff and I would very much like to get ahold of her whenever she is available.
*cipher- Your advice was most helpful. I am filling out my pitch a bitch form as soon as I finish this email. I'm not sure if Neteller will be much help as I haven't made a deposit with them before. I'm trying to find out who if anyone acts as a regulatory agency for Belize, any ideas?
*jpm- no I don't want to kill anyone. In fact I'm at the other end of the spectrum right now and ready to start dancing with complete strangers.
*rainman-249 positive posts and then yours. Yeah 249, definatley 249.
*jinnia- thank you for your kind words. I appreciate you keeping things light. If I let the magnitude of this whole thing sink in I'd probably curl up in a corner somewhere and that would be the last you'd hear of me. So I'm just gonna keep laughing and praying and let God work the whole thing out.
*linda7- Thank you. You put it beautifully.
*dave r.- Although Gambling.com and Nighlives put this promo together neither one of them are in any way responible for what happened. This one is all on the casinos and the Software.
*jetset- You'd think that Gambling.com would not let people like this advertise on the site. I too thought if a casino advertised there it had to be somewhat reputable. I see now the requirments for being able to advertise there don't include ethical or financial resposibility on a casino's part.
I will take all you have said and keep working on this, thanks again to all of you.
bravid00

 

[cipher]

Dont forget Bravid00 you have a responsibility to keep the forum abreast as to how things are developing. Lastly, I've got a couple of feelers out on who to contact in Belize. Have a good one.

Cipher

 

[jinnia]

bravid00,

you heard cipher, so we want to be kept up to date with this .. ok? grin

I wish you the best of luck on recoverying ALL of your money.

Just don't get frustrated as I done and back off, keep after them. Do all it takes!!

Good Luck
debi

 

[hip_hop]

You said:

"Although Gambling.com and Nighlives put this promo together neither one of them are in any way responible for what happened. This one is all on the casinos and the Software"

Nope! if these guys are making money by sending you there then they have a moral obligation to assist you in collection.

Go get 'em.

Hip Hip

 

[jpm]

Thanks for the info Jyde.

Just to clarify, I wasn't questioning Julie's integrity, just gambling.com's in general. I think Julie is a straight shooter who does a good service, its just unfortunate that her hard work & reputation make it appear that gambling.com is just as straight. But apparently they only care about the advertising dollars. (Jet, I think you mean to say gambling.com, rather than GG!)

 

[sirius]

There was an incident when gambling grumbles took down bad reports about a group of Unified Gaming sites. I posted the original here many years ago in case anyone wanted to read what the fuss was about!

Gambling.com also used to have a skull and corssbones symbol for bad casinos in the directory. Do they still do this? I've not really looked at the site recently.

 

[sirius]

I managed to find the old report. I almost forgot Unified Gaming was sometimes called Perplexa so it took a while to find!

Notice that, at least at the time of this incident, Levin implied he doesn't take advertising for bad casinos.

I only had a copy of this to post before it was removed by gambling grumbles because I'd emailed the text to a casino involved for their comments!

-----------------

Posted on Sunday, February 27, 2000 - 09:34 pm:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Here is the message from Link Removed (invalid URL) gambling grumbles forum. They mysteriously removed it, instead saying it's been withdrawn pending a review by the casinos.

1. SNAP GROUP OF CASINOS Feb-19-00 11:39 AM
SNAP CASINO GROUP -- Not Recommended

With customers of Snap and related casinos
angry about an
unannounced change in their bonus policies,
Gambling.com has
taken the unprecedented step of recommending
that its guests
not visit a number of its advertisers.

"We can not remove the advertisements which
these casinos
have bought and paid for," said Gambling.com
CEO Graeme
Levin, "but we certainly will not accept any
new advertisements
from them unless they clearly state the
correct rules for
collecting bonuses and pay the bonuses they
currently owe to
customers."

In addition to placing the freeze on accepting
new advertising
from them, Levin said Gambling.com will put
the "Skull and
Crossbones" symbol next to their entries in
its Directory. This
symbol means the casino is 'Not Recommended."

The casinos effected are Snap, Mona Lisa,
Aloha, Vegas From
Home, and ShangriLa, all part of the Snap
group of casinos.

Other casinos in the group are Abetz, Bali,
Old Las Vegas,
Rosie's Chalk, Fat Lady, and 5 Dimes. As no
complaints have
been received by Gambling Grumbles against
these casinos, the
advertising freeze and Skull and Crossbones
will not be applied
to them.

The situation arose when the casinos decided
that in order to
collect bonuses, customers had to first play
three times the
amount of the deposit. However, they did not
publish this
restriction on their website and are
continuing to say there only
that the bonus itself must be played.

Thus if you open an account with them and
deposit $500, you
are given a $75 bonus -- but you are not told
that it will taken
back if you do not play at least $1500.

"I feel that this is fraud" said George, a
customer at the Mona
Lisa casino. "I would like to prevent others
from being ripped off
with false promises, and maybe even get my
bonus money
returned.

"It is in all our interests to weed out the
crooked operators if
online gambling is going to succeed" he said
in a letter to
Gambling Grumbles. "Thank you in advance for
any help you can
provide."

Donald, a Snap customer, also learned of the
new policy when
attempting to cash in. He received a letter
saying "Your request
for a withdrawal of funds has been processed.
Your $887.00
redemption has been processed by the method
requested.

"You didn't earn the deposit bonus."

When he asked why, Snap told him, "due to
bonus hunters our
policy regarding bonus cashing has changed. To
earn your
bonus now you must wager at least three times
the amount of
your deposit."

"It would be nice if you stated that policy on
your web site
under 'bonuses'," Donald wrote back.

Mark, who has an account at the Aloha Casino,
complained that
he was only given $400 of the $600 bonus he
was promised and
they told him "I was not because I needed to
wager three times
the amount deposited and bonused if my wagers
took place in
the casino area, rather than slots. This was
never listed on their
web site, still is not listed on their web
site, and was only
decided on their part after I had wagered and
won - and they
didn't want to pay me."

Hiurong, who was told he had not gambled
enough to earn a
bonus (even though he had met their published
requirements)
found himself unable to collect anything from
Snap until
Gambling Grumbles contacted them. They then
told us that he
would be paid. He was -- all except $60 and
they never
answered the question of why the $60 was
withheld.

Levin said that Gambling.com has written
several letters to the
Snap group about this situation. A number were
not answered
and those replies that they did receive were
"unsatisfactory."

"It is a difficult situation for us," Levin
said. "On one hand, Snap
and its sister casinos advertise on
Gambling.com -- and have
always proved to be honest and trustworthy. On
the other, we
have a duty to our guests not to allow an
advertiser to mislead
them.

"We are attempting to have these casinos
publish their true
bonus policies on their websites and to
reimburse those
customers who were not given the bonuses they
were promised
when they made their deposits," Levin said.

"Hopefully, they will do so -- but there is no
question that we
view our guests' interests, and our own
credibility, as more
important than advertising revenue concerns."

 

[jpm]

LOL, 3x wagering requirements! Ahhh, those were the days.