Predatory Terms and Conditions...non-promotional

Joined
Mar 13, 2008
Location
Ontario
Well, I don't feel I am up to the task of compiling a complete list...there are hundreds if not thousands of casinos out there.

CM started with a a post here https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/threads/stipulations-on-playtech-progressive-win.31033/ with a partial list of casinos that don't pay in full for progressive wins.

Casinos that require you to pay a monthly fee to maintain an account, dormant fees that are excessive and anything other than the FU..we will change the rules without notice at our discretion, found even at reputable casinos are fair game.

Please quote the offending paragraph and make sure you get the casino name correct.

If we all pitch in as we run across them, perhaps we can begin to assemble such a list.

Please don't include questionable promotions...they change so quickly I think that they would detract from the usefulness of this thread.

And if the casino in question has a rep here, please give them the courtesy of a PM to alert them of a post in this thread that concerns their casino.

Casinos have in the past been responsive to player concerns and changed Terms and Conditions.

I can't stress enough to go back and read the Terms and Conditions (sometimes known as Terms of Use or Terms of Service) at the casinos you deposit with. Every last one I've read has put the onus for players to check these for changes.
 
I am an affiliate and have had my share of casinos not paying me my revenues, even after I register and loose money, the reports show zero activity...try to pick stock listed companies, they are usually your best bet
 
Freebet, I appreciate your comments, but I was hoping to create a list of PLAYER issues from terms and conditions.

Affiliate agreements are a whole different ballgame, and I do believe casinos that shortchange their affiliates are questionable when it comes to their integrity with players also.

I do hope you check out each and every casino you promote...but so much can happen in a short time that it is hard to keep up with.

If you stumble across anything untoward in general Terms and Conditions, please post again with details.
 
what about wagerworks casino's ive put virgin casino's T&Cs because they are on the accredited list here but i think all wagerworks T&Cs are basically the same re progressive payouts

i mean if certain casino'o get blasted because they pay progressives over a long period shouldnt wagerworks be put into the same catagory,
i know virgin are accredited and a top notch casino but you cant put one without the other

If you win MegaJackpots then provided all the applicable terms and conditions and all the Website's terms and conditions have been observed, you will be paid the prize money by Wagerworks. Payment will be in 20 equal annual instalments (with no accrual of interest on deferred payments) or if you choose a reduced lump sum amount based on the present value of the 20 annual future payments.
 
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what about wagerworks casino's ive put virgin casino's T&Cs because they are on the accredited list here but i think all wagerworks T&Cs are basically the same re progressive payouts

i mean if certain casino'o get put on the rogue list because they pay progressives over a long period shouldnt wagerworks be put into the same catagory,
i know virgin are accredited and a top notch casino but you cant put one without the other

The difference with Wagerworks is that its MegaJackpots are boosted by putting the funds into an annuity, as are all IGT jackpots. So the numbers you see on the jackpot are actual value plus 20 years interest. This is stated very clearly in the paragraph you quoted.

With all other online providers, jackpots are actual value and paid out in their entirety.
 
No one said anything about a rogue list. I'm just compiling a list of Playtech casinos that include their progressive jackpots within their monthly payment plan. That's all.
 
The difference with Wagerworks is that its MegaJackpots are boosted by putting the funds into an annuity, as are all IGT jackpots. So the numbers you see on the jackpot are actual value plus 20 years interest. This is stated very clearly in the paragraph you quoted.

With all other online providers, jackpots are actual value and paid out in their entirety.

i must be blind :confused:to be honest i cant see much difference between these terms and the ones from the joyland case,

you can either accept a reduced lump sum as sylvia p did from joyland or choose to get (from a 2 million jackpot, made up number) roughly 8000 a month, the jackpot is still not paid in its entirety.and would take 20 years,


i was also wondering if you did take a reduced sum would the remainder of the funds be put back into the prize pool,
fyi i did pm the virgin rep to see what he says
 
i must be blind :confused:to be honest i cant see much difference between these terms and the ones from the joyland case,

you can either accept a reduced lump sum as sylvia p did from joyland or choose to get (from a 2 million jackpot, made up number) roughly 8000 a month, the jackpot is still not paid in its entirety.and would take 20 years,


i was also wondering if you did take a reduced sum would the remainder of the funds be put back into the prize pool,
fyi i did pm the virgin rep to see what he says

The difference is that jackpots other than Wagerworks are complete - in other words, what you see is what you should get. With Wagerworks, their jackpots are *inclusive* of 20 years interest. Thus, you would get that sum over 20 years - or else take the value in a single lump sum MINUS what would've been earned in interest.

Wagerworks actually declares this in their terms in conditions, because this is what their provider (IGT) does. On the other hand, with Joyland, their provider disburses the entire amount immediately - and thus the casino should also pay the entire amount immediately.

If the player takes the lump sum at any Wagerworks casino, there are no remaining monies because there is no interest earned.

This is exactly how lotteries in the US are paid - you can either take the entire sum over 20 years, or else you get a reduced sum which is the value without the interest.
 
The difference is though that we expect the USA to still be around in 20 years.

What would happen if WW were to get taken over by an unrelated company say a conglomerate and it went bust? You would probably be no more than an unsecured creditor. Or are these JP funds ringfenced somehow?

It all seems quite chancy because if WW are using a rate of interest say 5% to discount their future payments to the winner and the interest rate over the next 20 years were to stay at 1% they could be in for a much bigger cost than they thought.

Hopefully this money is in a seperate fund that is managed and reviewed.

The players really need to consider the lump sum as the real JP which is fair enough if they are aware of that. I wonder how many players understand this though?
 
The difference is though that we expect the USA to still be around in 20 years.

LOL...

What would happen if WW were to get taken over by an unrelated company say a conglomerate and it went bust? You would probably be no more than an unsecured creditor. Or are these JP funds ringfenced somehow?

It all seems quite chancy because if WW are using a rate of interest say 5% to discount their future payments to the winner and the interest rate over the next 20 years were to stay at 1% they could be in for a much bigger cost than they thought.

Hopefully this money is in a seperate fund that is managed and reviewed.

The players really need to consider the lump sum as the real JP which is fair enough if they are aware of that. I wonder how many players understand this though?

Well, given that Wagerworks is owned by IGT, who provide probably 60% of the gaming machines in all US casinos, as well as significant numbers elsewhere in the world, I don't think that IGT is in any danger of failing any time soon :)

IGT, the wholly owned subsidiary of International Game Technology (NYSE: IGT), a publicly-traded corporation, is a world leader in the manufacturing of gaming machines and proprietary software for progressive gaming systems. The company operates a number of linked progressive MegaJackpots(TM) systems in jurisdictions where gaming is legal. All IGT MegaJackpots(TM) top awards are paid in annual installments upon verification, except MegaJackpots Instant Winners Jackpots(TM) and Rapid Riches MegaJackpots(TM) awards, which are paid in their entirety upon verification.

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URL Not Found / Outdated

Note that this statement comes from the provider (IGT/Wagerworks), not the casino operator. I believe Microgaming states that the entire amount is paid in full (or at least used to), and I'm pretty sure Playtech has done so as well (or at least used to).
 
Any of these progressive Jackpots that are not payed out in full are bullcrap.
It is just One huge con.
All Casinos not offering full paymment on progressive wins deserve to be rogued, they won't be but they should be.

If the Jackpot was made up from Casino funds I would not have a problem with it but since they are made up of their players funds and the Casino is essentially just a holding agent taking a very nice fee there is no excuse to not pay in full.

The Casino also makes interest on this pool (OK no problem nice little perk) not only until the progressive is won but upto 20 Years later! (Big problem)

What happens in the event of the Death of a winner?
Over 20 Years this is not that unlikely.
Does the Casino just say, Oh bad luck, I guess we will keep the $x million change we never got around to paying?
I don't see them making any provisions to pay next of kin.

A player can invest a lump sum and have it work for them and not the Casino.
Just how much value does this money lose over 20 Years anyway?
20 Years is a long time, especially in such a fast moving business as remote gaming, there is a very good chance a winner will never see all their winnings.

The Jackpot is advertised as the full total, if this is not payed in full upon winning it then that is false advertising.
It should be advertised as,
"Win 10k for 20 Years unless you die in the meanwhile or we go out of business."

Doesn't quite have the same appeal as "win 4 Million!" does it?
These Casinos have cart blanche to twist the truth and lie in anyway they see fit that benefits them at the expense of their customers.

and you know what really upsets me?
The fact that this industry is so dirty that otherwise decent people are prepared to makes excuses it is acceptable because at least they had it in their T&C's.
 
I think some of you are missing the point.

The IGT/Wagerworks jackpots have a value which is the total amount of contributions, which when placed in an interest-bearing account for 20 years results in a significantly higher amount which they then advertise.

Of course the winner can take the reduced lump sum and invest it - and if they were to put it into the exact same type of account with the same terms, they would end up with the exact same amount.

IGT/Wagerworks does not make anything on the interest (as far as I know). Furthermore, they are the supplier, not the casino.

Everything is stated up front - most people who play these jackpots in the US know that it is paid out over 20 years in annual installments - there is no deception whatsoever involved. In fact they take extra care not to be deceptive because they still need to be licensed by the various jurisdictions in order to provide their equipment - and you can be sure that IGT is not about to risk its many licenses for the sake of untruthful or deceptive advertising.

Many people also choose to take the reduced lump sum because it is still sizeable enough for them to realize their dreams. But some choose to take the annual installments because it results in a larger win, doled out to them in fairly hefty portions and introduces an element of control such that they will not lose it, or get cheated, or be inundated by people asking for handouts.

With the sole exception of IGT/Wagerworks, as far as I know, all online casino software providers pay out the jackpot in full - whether direct to the player, or to the casino for further distribution. It is the latter case which poses a problem because the casino can then impose its own restrictions on the payments.

So - there are two solutions to this. Either casinos must be made to disburse all progressives in full, or else the provider must take responsibility for paying out jackpot winners themselves - which I think is more sensible. Casinos should NEVER be allowed to impose terms different from those of the provider.
 
Any of these progressive Jackpots that are not payed out in full are bullcrap.
It is just One huge con.
All Casinos not offering full paymment on progressive wins deserve to be rogued, they won't be but they should be.

If the Jackpot was made up from Casino funds I would not have a problem with it but since they are made up of their players funds and the Casino is essentially just a holding agent taking a very nice fee there is no excuse to not pay in full.

The Casino also makes interest on this pool (OK no problem nice little perk) not only until the progressive is won but upto 20 Years later! (Big problem)

And you know what really upsets me?
The fact that this industry is so dirty that otherwise decent people are prepared to makes excuses it is acceptable because at least they had it in their T&C's.

Dear God Rusty.....you're starting to sound like me. :laugh:

Excellent points though IMO. The only revision I would add, and hope you do remember...is that not all decent people are ready to make excuses...there are still some left that will do the right thing. That's the only thing that keeps me at all optimistic that maybe someday, things will improve for the better. I have to stay a bit "glass half full", or else I'd just give up. :)

So - there are two solutions to this. Either casinos must be made to disburse all progressives in full, or else the provider must take responsibility for paying out jackpot winners themselves - which I think is more sensible. Casinos should NEVER be allowed to impose terms different from those of the provider.

Agreed Spear, that option two is the way it should be done, across the board. I don't believe that the individual casinos should ever even have access to those pooled funds.
 
I think some of you are missing the point.
The IGT/Wagerworks jackpots have a value which is the total amount of contributions, which when placed in an interest-bearing account for 20 years results in a significantly higher amount which they then advertise.

Erm that is the point.
The total you see in the Jackpot is not real. It's bullcrap like I said.
How is advertising an amount as an instant win but is only available if you invest wisely and do not touch a Cent for Twenty Years not misleading?

The total in the Jackpot should read as the reduced amount (real) a player gets if they don't want to wait 20 Years to receive the full amount, assuming they live that long, the Casino stays in business, they invest every Cent and don't touch it for 20 Years.

IGT/Wagerworks does not make anything on the interest (as far as I know). Furthermore, they are the supplier, not the casino.


Not sure who that is aimed at but I have not named names, I am talking about a general principle and you can be sure the holders of progressive Jackpot funds will employ methods to optimize the value of holding these funds, as I say I have no real problem with this, it is just good business acumen.

Everything is stated up front - most people who play these jackpots in the US know that it is paid out over 20 years in annual installments - there is no deception whatsoever involved. In fact they take extra care not to be deceptive because they still need to be licensed by the various jurisdictions in order to provide their equipment - and you can be sure that IGT is not about to risk its many licenses for the sake of untruthful or deceptive advertising.

Obviously I disagree with this.
Unless the amount advertized in the Jackpot total can be won as a lump sum it is deceptive, period.

Many people also choose to take the reduced lump sum because it is still sizeable enough for them to realize their dreams. But some choose to take the annual installments because it results in a larger win, doled out to them in fairly hefty portions and introduces an element of control such that they will not lose it, or get cheated, or be inundated by people asking for handouts.

People choose to take the reduced lump sum (no doubt the majority) because they feel it is better than waiting 20 Years and taking the huge risk of actually receiving the amount advertised.
Those that choose to take annual installments (very few I expect) have received some very poor advice and/or simply do not have the capacity to understand they are putting their money at risk.

Spear tell me you would take the installments because you think it is a good deal and I will listen politely :rolleyes:
A bird in the hand is worth Two in the bush.

With the sole exception of IGT/Wagerworks, as far as I know, all online casino software providers pay out the jackpot in full - whether direct to the player, or to the casino for further distribution. It is the latter case which poses a problem because the casino can then impose its own restrictions on the payments.

So - there are two solutions to this. Either casinos must be made to disburse all progressives in full, or else the provider must take responsibility for paying out jackpot winners themselves - which I think is more sensible. Casinos should NEVER be allowed to impose terms different from those of the provider.


Thanks for the added info and I largely agree with you here.

PinaBaby;
Dear God Rusty.....you're starting to sound like me.

Yes, but it was the most pleasurable brainwashing session ever, I hope the marks go soon though.
 
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Please don't tell anyone this but here in the UK we are printing money like it's going out of fashion. The good old Bank of England has knocked out about 50BN so far, mainly because we lost it all on our bankrupt banks. It is possible we could have a load of inflation here in the next few years. 200K in 20 years might only buy a modest car. Who knows what it could be worth then?

In a low inflation stable business environment such as we had in the 90's and this decade it would not be so much of a problem. But the world has totally changed in the last year.

It is all very well saying IGT won't fall but how can anyone know that? As I said above it could change ownership itself. Even one year ago no one predicted the Lehman Bros collapse, Northern Rock or that Iceland would go bankrupt (the nation not the supermarket :) ). How can anyone be certain IGT will be around in 20 years anyway?
 
Erm that is the point.
The total you see in the Jackpot is not real. It's bullcrap like I said.
How is advertising an amount as an instant win but is only available if you invest wisely and do not touch a Cent for Twenty Years not misleading?

The point is, IGT/Wagerworks jackpots are not advertised as instant win - if you followed the links you will see that they do have a couple of jackpots which are actually instant win.

Now if any of the Wagerworks casinos are advertising online that their jackpots are instant payout... then there would be a problem - but I doubt that they are doing that.

This may not seem common to you but not only is it commonly done in the US, it is commonly known to people who play Megajackpots - or any lottery. Most states have strict rules on advertising as well, so you can be certain they would not be able to do this if they were considered to be deceptive.

Not sure who that is aimed at but I have not named names, I am talking about a general principle and you can be sure the holders of progressive Jackpot funds will employ methods to optimize the value of holding these funds, as I say I have no real problem with this, it is just good business acumen.

I repeat - except for IGT/Wagerworks, online casino software suppliers do NOT hold funds.

Obviously I disagree with this.
Unless the amount advertized in the Jackpot total can be won as a lump sum it is deceptive, period.

Then take it up with the UK Advertising Standards board. See what they have to say.

People choose to take the reduced lump sum (no doubt the majority) because they feel it is better than waiting 20 Years and taking the huge risk of actually receiving the amount advertised.

Most people take the lump sum because it is more than enough for them.

Those that choose to take annual installments (very few I expect) have received some very poor advice and/or simply do not have the capacity to understand they are putting their money at risk.

Spear tell me you would take the installments because you think it is a good deal and I will listen politely :rolleyes:

That depends on a number of things. I have no use for $100 million in a lump sum, for example, and I would have no problem receiving say $6-7 million per year. However, if the jackpot were like $20 million in installments, and only about $12 million lump sum, I'd probably take the lump sum.

DiamondGeezer said:
It is all very well saying IGT won't fall but how can anyone know that? As I said above it could change ownership itself. Even one year ago no one predicted the Lehman Bros collapse, Northern Rock or that Iceland would go bankrupt (the nation not the supermarket ). How can anyone be certain IGT will be around in 20 years anyway?

IGT does not bear any risk. The only way it can lose money is if its expenses are higher than its income - which is not likely. You could almost say they indeed had a license to print money. And in any case, I believe the jackpots wins are invested in such a way that IGT has no call on the funds - otherwise I might tend to agree that there is some risk to the player.

I'll have to find a description of the process somewhere... meanwhile here is a good
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describing a similar process for US state lotteries.

On the other hand, Northern Rock, Lehman Brothers, AIG etc. all bear significant risk in their business. They "borrow" depositors money to lend to others, or they sell insurance in the hopes that the premiums they earn will not be less than whatever they have to pay out - in the meanwhile gambling the funds on other investments or loans.
 
i agree with rusty on this.

the full amount whatever it says on the jackpot counter at whatever time it is hit, that is the amount that should be paid in full, not this take a reduced lump sum or installments rubbish,
its not like they are short of cash. i wouldnt dare to guess how much they are worth

Well, given that Wagerworks is owned by IGT, who provide probably 60% of the gaming machines in all US casinos, as well as significant numbers elsewhere in the world, I don't think that IGT is in any danger of failing any time soon

if thats true and i have no reason to doubt it why cant they pay a progressive jackpot in full,
to me it seems like they are just shortchanging the customer
 
getting back to the playtech casino,s

city club casino only says
6.5.3 You are aware of and agree that the maximum amount that a Player can cash-out when winning $10,000 or more in casino games within a 30 day period, is $10000 per month.

it says nothing about progressives so i emailed them and the said,
please be informed that the withdrawal limit of 10,000 per month alsoincludes the withdrawal from the winnings on the Progressive Jackpots.

so theres another one for the list----- (of who to put up against a wall and shot :D)


heres a part of there terms that i had a chuckle about,

You agree to fully pay any and all payments due to us or any third party in connection with your use of the Online Casino.
do you think they will accept my deposits in $1 installments :p
 
the full amount whatever it says on the jackpot counter at whatever time it is hit, that is the amount that should be paid in full, not this take a reduced lump sum or installments rubbish,
its not like they are short of cash. i wouldnt dare to guess how much they are worth

Zebedy, please take the time to read what I've posted. The jackpot is paid in full no matter what - the difference is collect now and get the jackpot and no interest, or collect the annual installments over 20 years and gain interest as well.

It is the value with interest that is displayed on IGT/Wagerworks jackpots, and this information is fully disclosed.
 
i have been reading what you wrote spear, alot of what youve said seems to be because you have extensive knowledge of how they work,
but take the average guy, or duffers like me :p who dont know where to look, or even know to look for what you have said, we just read what it says on the casino website,

you wouldnt go to the microgaming website to read the t&cs for gowild casino,

on virgins site these are all the t&cs that are on the site about the payment of progressives,

as they are stated the average person or me ,would either think, by taking a reduced amount they would lose out, or if they took the instalments they would have to wait 20 years to get the full amount,

at least thats the way i see it,

i hope you get my meaning as its late and my brain has fuzzed over :D


MEGAJACKPOTS

"Megajackpots" is the name given to so-called progressive jackpot games offered as part of the Virgin Casino Product. The Trade Mark "MegaJackpots" is a trademark or registered trademark of International Game Technology of 9295 Prototype Drive Reno, NV 89521 United States ("IGT") in the USA and/or elsewhere and is used with the permission of IGT directly or indirectly.
"MegaJackpots Game" means any one or more of the following: [MegaJackpots Cluedo with Free Spin Mystery BonusTM; and MegaJackpots Monopoly with Pass "GO" BonusTM or any other Game having a progressive jackpot component that may be part of the Virgin Casino Product from time to time.
"MegaJackpots" means the highest available payoff in a MegaJackpots Game;
"re-seed amount" means the highest available payoff immediately following a MegaJackpots win;
Verification of a win in a MegaJackpots Game can take up to 72 business hours and if you win MegaJackpots you only become entitled to the prize money once your win has been verified. You will be required to supply information as part of the verification process such as proof of your identity, residence and age.
If you win MegaJackpots you will be informed in writing when your win has been verified. Where a win is not verified to our, or Wagerworks' satisfaction that win can be annulled.
If you win MegaJackpots then provided all the applicable terms and conditions and all the Website's terms and conditions have been observed, you will be paid the prize money by Wagerworks. Payment will be in 20 equal annual instalments (with no accrual of interest on deferred payments) or if you choose a reduced lump sum amount based on the present value of the 20 annual future payments.
If you win MegaJackpots, you authorise us and Wagerworks to publicise your name, town, county, state and/or country of residence together with the fact that you have won MegaJackpots.
Following a MegaJackpots win Wagerworks shall be entitled to establish the re-seed amount at its absolute discretion.
If either we or WagerWorks decide to discontinue the provision of a MegaJackpots Game, or if a MegaJackpots Game becomes unavailable due to Force Majeure, any prize money related to that Game's MegaJackpots [which is not already the subject of a verified win or a win in course of verification] shall not be made the subject of any future play or be paid out to you.
We or WagerWorks may increase a MegaJackpots prize money at any time at our or its absolute discretion. The level of prize money in any Game may be decreased at the time of setting up a new game (i.e. not during a Game in progress).
If two players simultaneously win MegaJackpots, WagerWorks' systems server shall determine who of the two is to receive the prize money. The other person shall be entitled to the MegaJackpots re-seed amount.
 
Zebedy, please take the time to read what I've posted. The jackpot is paid in full no matter what - the difference is collect now and get the jackpot and no interest, or collect the annual installments over 20 years and gain interest as well.

It is the value with interest that is displayed on IGT/Wagerworks jackpots, and this information is fully disclosed.

Fully disclosed meaning buried in the T&C's?
Or is their a big display under the Jackpot stating,
"The value of this Jackpot is based on a 20 Year payment"

I have no idea how you can defend it, it is obviously wrong to put the Jackpot up as a running meter when the natural assumption would be this is the amount you win when hitting the Jackpot-not the amount you will receive on a friggin 20 Year plan! (estimated value)
I have said it twice before and I will say it again,
It is a crock of Bullcrap.

Answer One simple question,
Why do they not display the Jackpot as the amount you can win instantly and put in the terms and conditions you have the option for an extended payment of 20 Years?
That would be the right thing to do.

The way you carry on Spear you would think the Casino are doing the player a favour with this nonsense rather than calling it what it is, a clever slight of hand to make the Jackpot look bigger than it actually is.

I didn't get back to your other post, Wigan 1 Man Utd 2 :D
 
i have been reading what you wrote spear, alot of what youve said seems to be because you have extensive knowledge of how they work,
but take the average guy, or duffers like me :p who dont know where to look, or even know to look for what you have said, we just read what it says on the casino website,

you wouldnt go to the microgaming website to read the t&cs for gowild casino,

on virgins site these are all the t&cs that are on the site about the payment of progressives,

as they are stated the average person or me ,would either think, by taking a reduced amount they would lose out, or if they took the instalments they would have to wait 20 years to get the full amount,

at least thats the way i see it,

i hope you get my meaning as its late and my brain has fuzzed over :D

Ok. There is not a big flashing sign under the jackpot amount, of course.

Anyhow, aside from IGT/Wagerworks, the rest of the online casino software providers DO pay in lump sums, sometimes direct to the player, sometimes on to the casino operator, which is where the problem occurs.

Rusty - while I don't disagree with you, I am stating simple facts. I'm not willing to argue this any more because there's really no point.

And as for Man U - whew! Ronaldo was terrible... but Tevez was superb as usual.
 

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