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Thread: Fairdice Game Testing

  1. #1
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    Fairdice Game Testing

    Here's one that is guaranteed to generate some discussion! Cipher, is this connected with Cipher Strands, or is it something different and new?.

    Press Release

    24 August 2004

    Today Project Fairdice announced the initial release of software designed to prevent the rigging of games by online casinos.

    Spokesperson Douglas Reay said "This will deal a bitter blow to conmen and criminals in the gambling industry, and clear the way for the honest online casinos who give their players a fair chance."

    Currently the only way the honest online casinos have to show they are trustworthy is to invite auditors occasionally in to check on things, and many players don't trust that. Too many get ripped off once and never come back. The problem is, when a casino says they've shuffled a deck of cards fairly, how can you know if they are telling the truth?

    With the launch of this initial implementation of the Fairdice cryptographic protocol, Project Fairdice is offering casinos another way. We're saying to all the casinos out there, 'Come get involved in the project. Enable your websites to use the Fairdice Protocol. If you are not rigging your games, you have nothing to lose. This is your chance to really prove to your players that your random number generators are not fixed.'

    Online gaming watchdog
    eCOGRA
    (eCommerce and Online Gaming Regulation and Assurance) require in their code of practice that the probability of any event occurring shall be as for the actual physical device except where deviations are clearly displayed to the players. Now
    eCOGRA
    and other regulatory bodies have their first opportunity to give real teeth to their laws. "It's going to be very interesting to see who welcomes this breakthrough with open arms, and who ducks for cover or tries to ignore it."

    To find out more about Project Fairdice, come visit us at:

    http://fairdice.sourceforge.net/

    PRESS CONTACT:

    Douglas Reay

    Lead Developer

    Project Fairdice

    +44 1223 426485

    http://fairdice.sourceforge.net/

    douglasr+press@chiark.greenend.org.uk

    ABOUT PROJECT FAIRDICE:

    Project Fairdice is a non-profit organisation whose vision is to use open source software to revolutionise the gambling industry.
    jetset

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    Ok this seems interesting although probably appealing more on a techie level...and for those who don't trust the casino they are putting money into!!

    Anyway, if i read it right, the user installs a program that talks to a program on the casino operators server and between them they decide the result of a turn of cards or whatever the game is. So effectively, the user can see if the result on his "client" software matches what appears physically, or rather pictorally, on the screen. Is that how you read it Jet?

    Seems reasonable, though if i were the casino operator, i may be a little worried that the result determination leaves me at the mercy of the programmers. Should they turn out to be fraudulent or inaccurate, then I'm screwed. *If* i understand it right from the not-quite-as-clear-as-it-could-be docs....
    Last edited by Simmo!; 25th August 2004 at 01:58 PM.
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    I don't think it has anything to do Cipher strands. It is an implementation of a cryptographic protocol to generate random numbers that are acceptable to both parties.

    Let's say we want to toss a coin. I don't trust you, you don't trust me, but we can agree that we each toss a coin, and if we both get the same result, then we call it heads, otherwise we call it tails. As long as at least one of the coins is fair, the outcome will be fair, and neither party has an interest in using a biased coin, because it could be exploited by the other.

    Fairdice is the same sort of thing done electronically. The general idea of such protocols is that I generate a random number, you generate a random number, I send you an encrypted version of my number, you send me an encrypted version of your number, then we both calculate the same number somehow. If there is ever a disagreement, we can both reveal the numbers we generated and do the calculations to decide who is right. I had a quick look at the website, I did not see any information about which protocol they use, whether it is new or previously known.
    "The voice of reason"

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    Grandmaster is more technically knowledgeable in this area than I, and I would depend more on his judgement, I think.

    We sent a detailed list of relevant questions to the email address quoted on the press release but that turned out to be a dud, which isn't really a very encouraging start!
    jetset

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    An open source rng tester?

    Sounds good. Is so complicated for a non techy type to understand the way it is set out but it is worth a look. Even the message board is hard to use.

    There are like 6 emails so which one to use is a gamble unto itself but there is a phone number

    A working phone number? Who knows..
    joeyl

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    Very interesting idea, whether it will catch on remains to be seen. It would be interesting though to try it. GM the protocol info from further into the site states: TIGER/192 was chosen over MD5 as the message digest algorithm as doubts have been raised about MD5's collision resistance

    I'm going to try and break down a little further the way this works, and put it in a more gambling centric context. Say you are playing video poker and you place your bet and hit deal. The gaming server, knowing this game is based on a deck of 52 cards (assume we're playing JoB) and it picks a card from 1 to 52 at random for your first card. Your computer also picks a card from 1 to 52 at random and each machine shares its encrypted pick with the other. They each then take the pick, and add it to their own pick and do a modulo 52 on the sum (see this page for an explaination on modulo arithmetic http://www.oremus.org/liturgy/etc/ktf/app/modulo.html) and the result is the card that is used as your first card. Then repeat for the next 4 cards (a little more complex because of the previously chosen card, but for simplicity sake, repeat 4 more times). All of this shared cryptographically so theoretically nobody can intercept or modify the data to their own benefit.

    So say your computer pics card #27 and the casino server picks card #46. 27 + 46 mod 52 = 21 (if I did my mod correctly) so the agreed upon first card is card #21. How you decide which one that works out to is up to you, but you both agree that #21 was a randomly chosen card.

    Interesting concept, I'd like to play some
    VP
    &
    BJ
    at a casino using this system and compare the results to one of the regular casinos I play and see if it 'feels' the same.

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    After some initial difficulties, we managed to contact the lead developer at Fairdice, Douglas Reay. We forwarded the following lay description from Grandmaster of how he interpreted this idea:

    "It is an implementation of a cryptographic protocol to generate random
    numbers that are acceptable to both parties.

    "Let's say we want to toss a coin. I don't trust you, you don't trust me, but
    we can agree that we each toss a coin, and if we both get the same result,
    then we call it heads, otherwise we call it tails. As long as at least one
    of the coins is fair, the outcome will be fair, and neither party has an
    interest in using a biased coin, because it could be exploited by the other.

    "Fairdice is the same sort of thing done electronically. The general idea of
    such protocols is that I generate a random number, you generate a random
    number, I send you an encrypted version of my number, you send me an
    encrypted version of your number, then we both calculate the same number
    somehow. If there is ever a disagreement, we can both reveal the numbers we
    generated and do the calculations to decide who is right. I had a quick look
    at the website, I did not see any information about which protocol they use,
    whether it is new or previously known."

    Reay has responded, confirming that this description is "Spot On".

    "In this case the means of combining the two numbers is taking
    the modulo. And the Fairdice apps hide all the nasty stuff. All the host (the casino) has to do is tell the fairdice server "I want to run a game called XYZ and produce a random number between 1 and 6". The player tells the fairdice
    client app "I want to join the game XYZ".

    "All the rest gets done automatically. The client and server talk to each
    other and come up with the random number. They tell it to the host. And
    when the game is over they tell it to the user (the player). And if
    either participant tries to cheat, the fairdice apps spot this and let
    everyone know."
    jetset

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    I believe:
    Most
    BJ
    games are just a tad skewed, after 1000's of recorded
    BJ
    hands I have never approached 99.5% payout (crypto,
    BM
    ,
    MG
    , Playtech) Therefore the chances of this program being implemented are slim and none. Something has to pay for these ludicrus bonuses!

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    Quote Originally Posted by jpm
    Very interesting idea, whether it will catch on remains to be seen. It would be interesting though to try it. GM the protocol info from further into the site states: TIGER/192 was chosen over MD5 as the message digest algorithm as doubts have been raised about MD5's collision resistance
    This is actually more of a detail of the implementation. I did find a description of the protocol on the website, although still not as detailed as I would have liked. The problem with MD5 was only published 10 days ago, so I am favourably impressed by developers.
    "The voice of reason"

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    Quote Originally Posted by jetset

    "Let's say we want to toss a coin. I don't trust you, you don't trust me, but
    we can agree that we each toss a coin, and if we both get the same result,
    then we call it heads, otherwise we call it tails. As long as at least one
    of the coins is fair, the outcome will be fair, and neither party has an
    interest in using a biased coin, because it could be exploited by the other.
    I want to know where is Fairdice going to get money to run this operation? Who is going to fund it? It requires cooperation between the software companies and Fairdice. Why would they want to do that with Fairdice?

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