Jeeze - Merry Christmas to you too
Seriously, you have twisted the CW issue into your own personal whipping post - and me your whipping boy. Why do you force me to continually repeat myself? The player duped you into believing he was something he wasn't. The term has been there for years. Players need to read the terms. If you break the terms you don't get paid. You need to get over it.
If you want to disect each term every casino has on this site - well knock yourself out. If you find something you disagree with, well then lets talk - and hopefully we can get a casino rep involved as well.
But if you just want to stomp around and have a hissy fit, well who's to stop you?
Personally, I don't think I twisted anything nor do I feel I've been duped by anyone. Forget about the fact that I (among many other people) believe whole heartedly that this player should have been paid. I gave up on that the second CW said their decision was final. In fact, I'm not even going to bother re-entering any of that debate again since the matter has been closed by CW and by you.
I have no desire to read through the terms and conditions of any casinos I have no intention of playing at. It's hardly my job to police the casinos in your list. Besides, many of these terms probably wouldn't even seem ambiguous until a casino uses them in manner that doesn't seem to apply. I'm also not going to bother explaining a 10th different way why reading the terms and conditions and understanding them as the casino feels they should be applied is not always the same thing. That is exactly why these terms have to be very simple and very precise or they cannot be applied. That horse has been beaten to death.
I was quite sure after you and Tom had both stated the term wasn't clear the way it was written and needed to be clarified that it couldn't be applied as is. I was very disappointed that an accredited casino would be allowed to apply a term and then clarify it at a later date. As a result, I no longer see these casino's requirement to adhere to the set qualifications for accreditation as a certainty. Many people feel the same way. I was just the one who came back to voice the opinion.
Why
If you don't trust them any longer, why would you want to close accounts opened through the Accredited list just to open new ones?
In any case, the casinos would NOT allow this.
Actually, I already asked. They do allow it.
This really is getting beyond crazy. I know people wanted this guy paid bc it was a lot of money and he said this happened and you guys believed him. It's hard enough to win so when one does and it's voided it stings even worse.
I feel for the OP but if there's evidence he was a student then let the chips fall where they may.
Why is it so hard to believe CM but put all your faith in someone you never heard of before. He never could prove that he wasn't a student...let it go and move on.
It wasn't CM's decision it was CW who didn't want to pay.
The amount of money has nothing to do with it. It was explained 10 different ways that he wasn't a student. I guess that's a matter of opinion... Terms and conditions can't be applied by matter of opinion and casinos can't just decide they don't want to pay. The fact that some casinos try this is why we're all here.
I just do not understand how this issue became so overwhelming that smart people like Skiny (and others) have decided to turn this into a bigger mess than it already was.
My opinion is that the Danl lied. The casino term was understandable, if lightly convoluted. The casino could have let it go and paid. If they had then every other player would need a "free pass" on their mistakes.
I guess I am too stupid to understand why this has become an issue that includes threats to quit, and trying to bring down a site that has been there for them since they joined. Not to mention major disrespect for some damn fine people.
Yep, I definitely am too stupid.
Club World turned this into a mess. Us "smart" people were trying to clean it up. Yes, the casino could have paid and they should have. Other players wouldn't need a pass on their mistakes because if the terms and conditions are simple, clear and concise, mistakes aren't possible.
I'm not trying to bring anything down and I've never actually asked anyone here for anything. I come here to engage in debate and general conversation. If I lose trust in someone and voice my opinion on it you're free to call it a lack of respect. Others might call it honesty.
I'm with you on that one jod, I too was feeling a tad stupid. Personally, I think it would be a good idea to start reading T&Cs and start pulling out ambiguous, sloppily written, evasive, or however you want to word them, terms. This gives rogue casinos more ammunition to use against players, watching accreditted casinos (and I'm not agreeing CW was right in this case nor Danl) use poorly written terms to twist and turn them inside out to "protect" the casino.
BUT, I also feel that players need to start scrutinizing T&Cs and asking more questions now more than ever. With US players losing one option after another, casinos are going to start keeping players any way they can, and the players who are going to be faced with these issues more are going to be non-US players. Yes, reading T&Cs are a pain in the ass, BUT wouldn't you rather take the time to make sure you understand something 100% before you put any money down? Risk the chance of voiding winnings because you were in too much of a hurry to disregard possible changes?
Most of the T&Cs I've read lately, and these are many, clearly state: The casino will/can make changes WITHOUT notice and it is the players' responsibility to make sure they keep up to date on them and most of the casinos do NOT have a datestamp for their last T&C update. I once had a college professor who told his classes, "The only stupid question is the unasked question". It's YOUR money, ask questions until YOU perfectly understand everything!
@skiny, I hope you change your mind about leaving, you do contribute to a good debate, IMO. I also hope pinababy changed her mind. And I hope that Bryan may reconsider CWC's accreditation if CWC doesn't change/delete that ambiguous term. (I do believe in miracles
)
It shouldn't be necessary to ask questions about the terms and conditions if they were written clearly, kept simple and all had good and obvious reasons. My best advice for people who are reading terms and conditions that are poorly written and vague is to close the webpage and walk away. These things aren't written by idiots. If they're vague, they're vague for a reason.
Nothing is going to be reconsidered. All decisions are final. As for what I plan to do I haven't even thought about it. I've been back a half dozen times in the last couple of days out of habit. I always opened this site first when I sat down at my computer but I really have no desire to post. That may change and it may not. As for Pina, I have no idea if she'll be back. I spoke to her a few times in the last few days. According to her she's not.
I have been following pretty much on a daily basis the Club World thread. Whilst I feel Club World could have handled it differently, the fact remains the player broke the terms. The term in question had been there for years.
What would I have done if I was Club World?
I would have paid the player, then locked his account and then rewrote the term and made it more clearer. ie. highlight it when registering.
You mean you would have handled it properly?
However what is wrong, is giving Bryan and this site a lot of stick and unwarranted hassle, to the extent where demands are made to remove a casino from the accredited section - When no breaches of the standards required have actually happened.
I don't think any of this hassle was unwarranted and nobody has demanded anything. Many of us disagreed very strongly with the decision of the casino and of Bryan. Trust gained and lost through action. It is a lot easier to lose than it is to gain. These actions were wrong. Trust was lost.
Congratulations.
We don't always see eye-to-eye Skiny, which is cool. It's not about the person, but the issue.
However, in this case, I must ask:
Why did you have to make such a song and dance about 'no longer trusting accredited casinos' and 'closing all accounts opened via links from this site'?
You can decide to do all those things without starting a new thread to make a grand announcement. Are you really that full of your own importance that you think we are all going to collectively draw a huge breath and quietly whisper "Oh NOOO". Sheesh.
It reminds me of the little boy who wasn't happy with being given 'out', so he tucked his bat and ball under his arm and stomped off home.
Gloria hit the nail on the head when she talked about giving the benefit of the doubt to some guy who clearly has a problem with telling the truth over someone like Bryan who has a
proven track record of fighting for players. It boggles the mind that you would even accept what danl says given his penchant for telling porkies. How about you dig up some examples of Bryan pulling the wool over everyone's eyes? Yeah - good luck with that.
Why are you closing the accounts and opening new ones?
Do you not know that Bryan does not operate on a commission basis? The only thing you will be doing is wasting your time. It won't hurt CM, monetarily or otherwise. It shows that you are not even aware of how the CM business model works, which is amazing given how many times it has been re-iterated over the years.
I know you sometimes like to be controversial just for the sake of being controversial, but how about showing a little respect for the guy who has assisted every member of this site at some time or another, either directly or indirectly?
The accredited list is essentially a personal recommendation from Bryan about where it is safe to play. If you no longer trust in it, then by extension you must believe that Bryan is a b*llshit artist and untrustworthy - so why are you only closing your casino accounts? Why not add your Forum account? Or are you just staying on to protect us all from being shafted by Bryan and his ulterior motives??
If you hang around after all the stuff you have been saying lately, then you are being the ultimate hypocrite IMO. There are plenty of other sites where the owner doesn't give a rats ass - why not give them a try?
So now our posts here are done through self-importance? I thought it was for the sake of sharing opinions. I have shared mine.
It boggles my mind how people can suggest that you can perform an action using one excuse and justify it with another. Whether or not anyone lied isn't really relevant if the decision was made before the lie existed. It seems to me the lie after the fact has become more important than the fact itself.
How exactly is being in agreement with almost everyone who's entered this debate "being controversial?" Actually I think it's rather the opposite. Maybe I've been a little more vocal?
The accredited list is supposed to be more than a personal recommendation. It's supposed to be a group of casinos that follow a specific set of rules. If what you're saying is that by no longer trusting casinos to have to adhere to these rules means I shouldn't talk to anyone else who posts in this forum, I'll have to take that under consideration, although that does seem to pass the blame unto a lot of people who actually agree with me. I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "all the stuff" I've been saying lately. I've voiced a strong opinion on an open topic. You're probably speaking more about my no longer trusting the accredited list. Maybe you can clarify what the rest of the "stuff" is? After all, I don't want to seem like a hypocrite.
By the way, that post was just a little on the snotty side. Glad to see you haven't lost your charm.
Why does everyone assume the OP is talking about Club World?
I must admit, my first thought was that it was about GNUF....
I'm confused! (and slightly dazed!)
KK
I believe the dazed part.
A million cudos Brian.
Congrats on being such a cool dude!
You should be working as a diplomat for the UN on a six figure salary. You have the rare ability to have someone absolutely ropable at you, (or the world, or both) and be able to calm the situation with just a few words of wisdom. No vitriolic tyrade or manic abuse, just a calm and cool rationalisation.
I could certainly learn heaps from you as I often curse the firey Irish blood I was blessed with and that sometimes lands me in trouble!
By the way I know absolutely nothing about this matter but just had to add my congrats on the way you're handling it.
I wouldn't exactly consider myself "ropable." In fact for the most part I think my posts here are usually quite rational and to the point. At least that's what I'm told.
so maybe Skiny can clear it up.
