Rembrandt Casino VOIDS 62K euro's from my win!!!

grinder020123 · Feb 22, 2015

Hi,

On the 31st of December 2014 I played a bonus on Rembrandt Casino. They offered a 100% bonus of a 1000 euro's and I hoped I could start the new year of with a bang. I read the terms of the bonus, made some screenshots and started my session.

It was everything I'd hoped for and had the run of a lifetime leaving me with a balance of 77395 euro's. My account had already been verified and they were quite fast paying me with previous withdrawals so I decided to make a withdrawal of 5000 euro's and begin to withdraw my winnings.

The next day, still in ecstasy from my session the day before, they send me this email:

"Dear XXXXX,

First of all we would like to congratulate you with your winnings! Just at the end of 2014 the luck was on your side! let us hope you will be that lucky in the new year 2015 again as well!
Now, as for your winnings, they are in the process of being verified. The winnings are caused by our countdown bonus, which means your payout will be limited to 15.000 euro per the promotion conditions as you can find on page. The remainder will be waived; but of course 15.000 euro is still a nice win! we will start processing your winnings according to our terms in installments the finance department will contact you about.
The only thing what remains for now, is wishing you a gret sylvester and a stunning and healty 2015!

Let us know if you have more questions, we are happy to help you!

Sincerely,
Susanne
Rembrandt Support
Rembrandt Casino "

I checked the terms that i had made a screenshot of and could not find the term they were referring to. Not in the general terms, not in the bonus terms nor in the terms they set up specifically for this bonus.

When I checked the site again I saw that the term about the maximum win from this bonus all of a sudden was added to the terms that were made specifically for the bonus and was done so after I made a deposit played and won. I checked all the terms before my session and made screenshots of them. Therefore this term does not apply to me as they are trying to apply it retrospectively.

This had also been the first time they had a maximum payout when using a bonus so it's strange to me that after I made a huge win all of a sudden the terms of this promotion were not in line with the terms of all their bonuses they had offered during the year.

I tried to get an explanation from them and have e-mailed then numerous times but they continue to claim that this term was already in effect at the time of my deposit.

Now they have taken 62395 euro's of my winnings and only want to pay me the 15000 euro's referring to the term that is added after my deposit an playing session.

I have provided them with the screenshots showing that the terms were not in effect at the time I was playing and have Google cache screenshots as well to proof this. Even though I have provided this proof they didn't feel the need to respond to any of that.

They also told me that the terms were finalized on December 31st, 0.00 am (which would be before I made my deposit) but the Google cache screenshots that I have from later that day do not show this terms and show the page as it was when I made my deposit not containing the term about the 15000 euro max win.

I would really like some feedback on how to handle such a case as it is for a huge amount of money and I am being screwed unimaginably.

Thanks in advance,

KJ

PS

I tried uploading the screenshots but they are too big.

homerbert · Feb 22, 2015

If every your word is truth - they should paid, or they will go to rogue. Terms are valid at a time you claim your bonus, not after you win.
I suggest you to use CM service called PAB - read about it here:
https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/help/pab-rules/

Jono777 · Feb 22, 2015

Can't help with the main problem but this will help you to resize and upload your screenies so the guys here maybe able to see the full picture n help you!

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Sounds dodgy and I've had very similar happen to me in the past but on a much smaller scale

I wish you the best of luck

incrediblestuff · Feb 22, 2015

Hm, i played there only without depositing, and on the few occasions i got emails for some free-spins, i used them, all i got were game errors, a laggy site and unavailable support.. this turned me of from depositing, and i never really kept up with his Casino, and even deleted all em,ails with free spins i kept getting.

Somehow i am not surprised to see this, but of course it's bias from my end, still, when i read your story, i feel confirmed a bit.
Really sorry for your "loss" and if you really were so clever to make those screenshots before taking the bonus, you must either be an experienced gambler that was once stiffed, or someone that read enough about similar issues to take a lesson out of that.

If these are the hard facts, then i suggest you contact Max Drayman here, he is the PAB guy. Send the screenshots to him after he agrees to do it. You can read all about that process here, and thus i also advise you to stop posting once you are adopted into the PAB.
I don't know if Rembrandt is approachable by third parties, but i guess we may find out soon enough.

In the meantime i would do everything in my power to collect the 15K which is also still a nice win, but don't sign any agreement the Casino would offer you as a "prenuptial" for that payout.

here is the PAB link:
https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/help/pab-rules/

and here is Max's profile:
https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/members/1552/

Good Luck!

Edit:
Seems similar advice was posted whilst i was typing.

onkel · Feb 22, 2015

This is very obvious that the terms were changed because of your win. I've never seen them limiting wins on bonuses before, and €15k seems like a high enough number that they thought you would accept.

The site is licensed in Costa Rica if I recall correctly, so basically, I'm afraid, should they ultimately choose not to pay you there is really not much you can do

A Costa Rican license is essentially the same as not having a license at all.

dunover · Feb 22, 2015

You are a big winner, they don't want that liability so you say they are essentially committing fraud. Can you provide evidence via the 'Wayback machine' regarding the terms? As for your screenshots resize them to 640 pixels width and you will be OK.
It wouldn't surprise me at all with the plasticine license they have got, but I am surprised Microgaming allows this behaviour for one.
I don't know the PAB status for this site, it doesn't come up on here much.

refre · Feb 22, 2015

Funny how they sugarcoat it all.
The confiscation is almost lost in all the pleasantries.

It may be they have nothing to lose trying to pull this off.

A win like this could break an underfunded casino.

Going by their choice of 'licensing jurisdiction', this may be case.

Freddy

chayton · Feb 22, 2015

If the term wasn't there when you deposited and claimed the bonus then it doesn't apply to you period. I'd stop posting and fill out the PAB like others have said - Max will contact you to send the screenshots when he needs them.

Przecinek · Mar 4, 2015

There were casinos before that changed their terms mid-way and tried to retroactively apply them and they are still accredited so I wouldn't hold my breath on this one. (Example: Betfred who added restricted countries with backdated stamps and got caught redhanded).

Regulatory bodies on the other hand will likely believe in Casino's version of events (that is that terms were changed 31.12.2014) without asking for any evidence.

Anyway I have never played there and by the looks of it I don't think I ever will.

dunover · Mar 4, 2015

What worries me here is this term:

6.6 You are aware of and you agree that Rembrandt Casino can decide at her own standards, that the maximum amount that a Player can be paid-out is € 1.000 (or the equivalent amount in US dollars or GBP currency) per week, and &euro 2.500 per month. All amounts larger than € 1.000 weekly, or &euro 2.500 monthly will be paid in terms which Rembrandt Casino decides, until the full withdrawal amount is reached, if Rembrandt Casino decides not to payout the whole amount at once. Rembrandt Casino may, at his own discretion, also decide to pay the amount as a whole, even if the pay out amounts will be higher then the maximum set within the paragraph. This condition also applies to winnings of (progressive) jackpots. Withdrawals depend on verification of all required documents as set in clause 5.8. Rembrandt Casino may decide to – on your request– pay winnings (partially) to a skrill / moneybookers account. If winnings will be paid out to Skrill or moneybookers, there will be calculated a players fee from 1 % of the paid out amount. This fee will be withheld at the moment of transfer. All other payouts will be done by bank wire.

So they will say they are doing you a favour paying 15k at once, or even 5k. I mean 1000 euros weekly! WTF? you only need to get a simple win like Sapphires/wild on BDBA for over 1.35 euro stake and you'll fall foul. What if you had a decent hit on DoA?

I have not heard casinos actually imposing the vile Playtech-style term concerning jackpot wins to Netent and MG jackpots too - surely they would have some say in this?

I have to ask that if the OP 'read the terms' what was he doing depositing 1000euros with 100% bonus at a site with a 1k a-week cash-out limit in those terms?

I would recommend everyone give this s(h)ite a miss........

P.S. Countdown Bonus:

That's right, we are counting down to New Year's and then picking it back up to a whooping 100% bonus. New Year's Eve is here and we have following bonuses in place for you:
Today, December 31st 2014, pick from 50%, 40%, 30% and 20% bonus, up to 200€ per bonus, or pick all 4 and your 5th bonus will be a whooping 100%! You want 100% bonus immediately? No problem! Make a minimum deposit of 1000€ and you can pick your 100% bonus of 1000€ immediately!*

Don't forget, these bonuses are on top of the Winter scratch event still running until January 12th 2015!! You'll automatically receive a Winter scratch card when your deposit(s) totals 100€ and all you do is scratch, to reveal additional winnings, such as vacations and bonus money!

*NOTE: Because we have such an amazing 100% bonus for depositers over 1000 euro, the limit of payouts obtaining this bonus is 15.000 euro, after wagering requirements. Remaining winnings will be waived.

This does look suspiciously like it has been tacked on the end ex-post-facto.

Check this out:

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Note the English is OK and the grammar too in the promo descriptions - now look at the bolded piece above. I cannot prove it, but IN MY OPINION THIS HAS BEEN TACKED ON WITH HASTE, BY SOMEONE OTHER THAN THE WEBSITE EDITOR. I think the player HAS been shafted. It just doesn't look right.

maxd · Mar 24, 2015

FTR the OP has asked if we would consider this for the PAB service. I've welcomed him to submit a PAB -- his previous PAB is effectively dead in the water (no fault of his) -- and I'll discuss it with Bryan. No promises but we will consider it.

Finn · Mar 25, 2015

Przecinek said:
There were casinos before that changed their terms mid-way and tried to retroactively apply them and they are still accredited so I wouldn't hold my breath on this one. (Example: Betfred who added restricted countries with backdated stamps and got caught redhanded).

That is kinda bad example, Betfred didn't apply that retroactively, Canadians who took the bonus when Canada was not restricted territory, were paid.

The original poster of that thread didn't get banned and tagged "Banned User - fraudster - bogus PAB" for taking a bonus that was restricted for his country. He got banned and his winnings were confiscated because he was using a bot. Betfred restricted Canada from that bonus because there were too many bot users coming out of same region of Canada, but those Canadians who took the bonus before Canada was added to the list, and did not use bot, were paid.

Kiwiguy · Mar 26, 2015

grinder020123 said:
Hi,

On the 31st of December 2014 I played a bonus on Rembrandt Casino. They offered a 100% bonus of a 1000 euro's and I hoped I could start the new year of with a bang. I read the terms of the bonus, made some screenshots and started my session.

It was everything I'd hoped for and had the run of a lifetime leaving me with a balance of 77395 euro's. My account had already been verified and they were quite fast paying me with previous withdrawals so I decided to make a withdrawal of 5000 euro's and begin to withdraw my winnings.

The next day, still in ecstasy from my session the day before, they send me this email:

"Dear XXXXX,

First of all we would like to congratulate you with your winnings! Just at the end of 2014 the luck was on your side! let us hope you will be that lucky in the new year 2015 again as well!
Now, as for your winnings, they are in the process of being verified. The winnings are caused by our countdown bonus, which means your payout will be limited to 15.000 euro per the promotion conditions as you can find on page. The remainder will be waived; but of course 15.000 euro is still a nice win! we will start processing your winnings according to our terms in installments the finance department will contact you about.
The only thing what remains for now, is wishing you a gret sylvester and a stunning and healty 2015!

Let us know if you have more questions, we are happy to help you!

Sincerely,
Susanne
Rembrandt Support
Rembrandt Casino "

I checked the terms that i had made a screenshot of and could not find the term they were referring to. Not in the general terms, not in the bonus terms nor in the terms they set up specifically for this bonus.

When I checked the site again I saw that the term about the maximum win from this bonus all of a sudden was added to the terms that were made specifically for the bonus and was done so after I made a deposit played and won. I checked all the terms before my session and made screenshots of them. Therefore this term does not apply to me as they are trying to apply it retrospectively.

This had also been the first time they had a maximum payout when using a bonus so it's strange to me that after I made a huge win all of a sudden the terms of this promotion were not in line with the terms of all their bonuses they had offered during the year.

I tried to get an explanation from them and have e-mailed then numerous times but they continue to claim that this term was already in effect at the time of my deposit.

Now they have taken 62395 euro's of my winnings and only want to pay me the 15000 euro's referring to the term that is added after my deposit an playing session.

I have provided them with the screenshots showing that the terms were not in effect at the time I was playing and have Google cache screenshots as well to proof this. Even though I have provided this proof they didn't feel the need to respond to any of that.

They also told me that the terms were finalized on December 31st, 0.00 am (which would be before I made my deposit) but the Google cache screenshots that I have from later that day do not show this terms and show the page as it was when I made my deposit not containing the term about the 15000 euro max win.

I would really like some feedback on how to handle such a case as it is for a huge amount of money and I am being screwed unimaginably.

Thanks in advance,

KJ

PS

I tried uploading the screenshots but they are too big.

*shakes head* that's shocking mate take my advice get everything together for the PAB and submit it that's a lot of cheese and sounds like they are being "dodgy" adding that bit after
or who knows ...they might have made a "mistake" ...their employees might have been a bit "tiddly" after that big new years party ...and perhaps Rembrandt will come around to admitting
that a technical error occurred and pay you the money which you sound like you rightly won stay the course and stay vigilant.

Perez777 · Mar 28, 2015

It is simply awful when the casino canceled your prize.
Write the application in the Interpol.

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kavaman · Mar 28, 2015

Interpol ? Yeah i dont think it would be of much help. Pab is the best option to get the money.

Perez777 · Mar 28, 2015

For example the person lost 100к$, then he was incredibly lucky and he won 120к$. And here the casino declares (roughly speaking): here to you 15к$ also rejoice. We have the right to change rules.

Why the person has to are afraid? He can lose millions, he will be the VIP-client but as soon as he was lucky - at once the relation changes.

Casinos also have to be so grateful that people voluntary play game with a -EV!

Sorry for my english please.

Kiwiguy · Mar 28, 2015

I don't know if I'm the only one but I'm fast becoming very ...sceptical of anything coming out of costa rica bit of a pattern developing here and very little in the way of legal options or ways to recover debts :cool:

and that's a hint btw 62k is a bucket load of cheese somebody would do it for a percentage.

Try these guys xttp://www.attorneycollection.net/international/agency-city.php?city=Costa%20Rica

ugaboga · Mar 29, 2015

Kiwiguy said:
I don't know if I'm the only one but I'm fast becoming very ...sceptical of anything coming out of costa rica bit of a pattern developing here and very little in the way of legal options or ways to recover debts and that's a hint btw 62k is a bucket load of cheese somebody would do it for a percentage.

Try these guys xttp://www.attorneycollection.net/international/agency-city.php?city=Costa%20Rica

Costa Rica is a joke of a 'licensing jurisdiction'. There is no licensing for sportsbooks and casinos, anyone can start one from his garage. Avoid Costa Rica at all costs.

maxd · Mar 29, 2015

ugaboga said:
Costa Rica is a joke of a 'licensing jurisdiction'.

FWIW Costa Rica has always maintained that all they do is offer "business licences", there are no special licensing requirements on casino operations. In other words they don't police or do any kind of enforcement.

Przecinek · Apr 3, 2015

Finn said:
That is kinda bad example, Betfred didn't apply that retroactively, Canadians who took the bonus when Canada was not restricted territory, were paid.

I'm sorry but what are you taking about? There was only one main prize (sports car) so how other players could have "been paid"??

Terms was applied retroactively - terms were changed but dates - not. This is what happened. Canada was secretly removed from the list of allowed countries but without appropriate timestamp. Google cache revealed this backdating. I think this is a perfect example.

Funny you mentioned that OP was banned, I though we were talking about casinos that are backdating and retroaplying their terms and conditions :rolleyes:

Finn · Apr 3, 2015

Przecinek said:
Terms was applied retroactively - terms were changed but dates - not. This is what happened. Canada was secretly removed from the list of allowed countries but without appropriate timestamp. Google cache revealed this backdating. I think this is a perfect example.

For term to have been applied retroactively, it would require that a legit, non-bot, Canadian player, who hit three diamond sevens before Canada was added to the list of restricted countries, was denied the prize, the Jaguar or alternatively £30k cash reward. This didn't happen, thus it was not applied retroactively. If the people who updated that page forgot to add specific highlight that Canada was added to restricted countries certain "time and date", or if they forgot modify the terms updated on "date and time", that still doesn't make it retroactive applying.

It's silly to imply that forgetting to update that "Bonus terms modified date" merits loosing of accreditation, or that there is something wrong with Casinomeister since Betfred is still accredited.

Przecinek · Apr 4, 2015

Finn said:
If the people who updated that page forgot to add specific highlight that Canada was added to restricted countries certain "time and date", or if they forgot modify the terms updated on "date and time", that still doesn't make it retroactive applying.

I think you have way too much trust in casinos. In my humble opinion they never forget anything accidentaly when 30k is at stake. I don't understand why you cling to the fact that this Canadian was a cheater? Terms&conditions were reatroactively applied before anyone even knew that he was cheating. Sorry but two wrongs don't make it right. Poster could've killed his mother for all I care. If I spot casinos acting unethical I will point that fact out. Why defend something indefendable? It's like saying "OP killed his mother, so it's not a retroactive t&c change" :rolleyes:

The adjective retroactive refers to something happening now that affects the past.

Miriam-Webster's definition doesn't say anything about the person that is being targeted by retroactive changes. Hence my definition seems to be quite accurate. Betfred is guilty of backdating/ retroactrively applying (or "forgetting to change time and date" as you had put it) their terms.

P.S Also I have never implied anything is wrong with CM and my intention was never to suggest that there is something wrong with accreditation, merely pointing out a fact that OP might need stronger evidence as casinos often "forget" to change date & time when it comes to terms and conditions. :oops:

So please don't make it looks this way

CM is the best

Finn · Apr 4, 2015

Przecinek said:
I think you have way too much trust in casinos. In my humble opinion they never forget anything accidentaly when 30k is at stake. I don't understand why you cling to the fact that this Canadian was a cheater? Terms&conditions were reatroactively applied before anyone even knew that he was cheating. Sorry but two wrongs don't make it right. Poster could've killed his mother for all I care. If I spot casinos acting unethical I will point that fact out. Why defend something indefendable? It's like saying "OP killed his mother, so it's not a retroactive t&c change"

After further checking it seems that they didn't even forget that. The rules of Betfred's individual promotions, don't have any "last updated" text, most casinos don't seem to have any "last updated" text on individual promotions. Practically all casinos, like Betfred, have this term or version of it on all their individual promotions:

Betfred has the right to change the promotion without any prior notice.

Only the general bonus rules have "last updated: date".

Laws get rewritten and changed, but that rewriting isn't retroactive, unless you try to apply the new laws to cases that happened before that law became active. Thus Betfred's promotion modification was not retroactive by any reasonable definition. This kind of silly definition would define whole legislative process retroactive, almost all laws that pass the system, modify at least partly some older laws.

There is nothing unethical about updating promotion rules or even ditching the whole promotion before the previously announced ending date, as long as you don't apply it at events that happened before the rule change. For example Betfair had every right to stop offering "Happy Hour" promotion whenever it wanted, but they shouldn't have retro-actively confiscated winnings. https://www.casinomeister.com/casino-reviews/betfair/

Terms&conditions were reatroactively applied before anyone even knew that he was cheating

The reason why Canada was restricted from that bonus was because there were too many bot players, including AlexanderK/Oleksandr, coming from the same city/town of Canada. The whole reason why that modification was made was because they knew Oleksandr and his friends/gang/associates were using bots.

maxd · Nov 17, 2015

AFAICT this issue came down to the casino claiming there had been a "max payout" clause in place and the OP said there was not. OP said he had proof, I asked him to send it, and ... nothing. I never received the proof and the OP hasn't been on site since. I'd asked again via email and PM and got nothing. That's "OP AWOL" as far as I'm concerned: case closed. Furthermore, without said proof this looks very much like a BS complaint, thread prefix updated accordingly.

grinder020123 · Nov 18, 2015

Misunderstanding

Hi,

I have contacted Max since i believe this is a misunderstanding.

I have the emails in my inbox and they show me sending the screenshots confirming what I'm claiming. Also I thought I was not allowed to post anything about this matter in the forum if I didn't have any outcome on the PAB.

But luckily Max has agreed to look into this again for me and review my case and I hope we will sort it out.

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