Casinos

Casinos By Status

Popular Filters

By Banking Options

Games

All Games

Bonuses

Popular Bonus Filters

Forums

Popular Forums

Forum User Features

Complaints

Submit A Complaint (PAB)

PAB Rules and Guidelines

Browse PABs

Gambling News

Popular News Sections

Non-Bonus Complaint Game error, winnings being withheld

R

rpc

Dormant Account
PABnonaccred
Joined
Feb 10, 2015
Location
UK
Hi,

Could do with a bit of advice / help, not sure if I'm alright to post this here so if not please just delete!

So basically I was playing on a casino which I wont name yet 2 weeks ago and deposited about £900, over the course of 5 days I won just under £19k. I played on numerous different video slots but won a lot on one specific one (probably about £14k). I was playing the highest stakes for pretty much the whole time (£10/£20/£40 per spin, £40 being max) and hit the bonus a few times over the course of the 5 days.

Was very up and down (went from £12k to under £1k) but eventually withdrew it all. They process one withdrawal per day, max of £2500. They'd processed just under £4k which I'd withdrawn earlier on in the week which I've been paid, but the 7 other withdrawals I'd made were put on hold. The manager (they only have one) then contacted me and said the game I'd won a lot on had been flagged by their software to have a potential fault. She told me the math and mass model didn't add up, but then having spoken to her again yesterday she contradicted herself and said they don't have access to either the math or mass model which was a little strange given that was the reasoning she originally gave me.

Anyway, they contacted the supplier and it is now being investigating which could take 2-3 weeks (which was 11 days ago). She said she emailed them again yesterday and they've come back and said it'll be at the end of next week before anything is found out.

Now I find this a little strange, this game is still openly available to play on a number of other casinos, yet they are taking 3 weeks to check whether it has a fault or not? I'm not sure if this is standard procedure but it seems a little odd given that people could be winning elsewhere with this potential 'malfunction'.

I've been talking to the manager and she reckons that the supplier would be liable for both the money the casino has already paid out to customers, and the pending withdrawals? Has anyone got any idea whether this would be the case or not? I personally didn't think it would be the case.

I don't retain much hope of being paid out the rest but was hoping some more knowledgable people would be able to help, given its a huge amount of money for me and id just like some peace of mind if nothing else.

Thanks!
 
Can't offer much advice I'm sorry however I am pretty confident that all games are rigorously tested with several 'thousands of spins' before they are released for general play by casino customers.

With this in mind I find the 'excuse' they are offering very strange indeed, especially the point you mention about the contradiction.

Its seems to be that they may be more likely delaying so they can 'scrutinise' your play and maybe come up with a more valid reason not to pay, the fact that they've already paid some of your withdrawals then again somewhat contradicts this point so maybe there could be a flaw afterall.

I know microgaming removed their 3 reel fruit machines a while ago for some reason so this instance could be along those sort of lnes.

Hope you get it sorted in your favour.
 
Thanks for the response!

The reason why they've already paid part of it is because the £3750 I've received was made up of three smaller withdrawals, none of which were above £1500, meaning the support staff can approve them withdrawals. The other 7 were either £2000 or £2500, meaning a manager had to approve them.

Its not a new game and has been around for a good while, it's by NextGen which I believe is a pretty big company? The main bit which I find slightly bizarre is that it'd take 3 weeks to test, whilst being available to play elsewhere.
 
rpc said:
Thanks for the response!

The reason why they've already paid part of it is because the £3750 I've received was made up of three smaller withdrawals, none of which were above £1500, meaning the support staff can approve them withdrawals. The other 7 were either £2000 or £2500, meaning a manager had to approve them.

Its not a new game and has been around for a good while, it's by NextGen which I believe is a pretty big company? The main bit which I find slightly bizarre is that it'd take 3 weeks to test, whilst being available to play elsewhere.
Click to expand...

That's very strange, but it has happened before because of a lack of communication between supplier and it's clients. It allows players who know there is a glitch to run around looking for casinos that haven't cottoned on yet, and they are OK until the supplier declares there is a fault and pulls the game. The 2015 CM awards detail such a case where a player found out that there was a glitch, and went around a number of casinos to exploit it due to the way the supplier mishandled the issue.

In this case, had you withdrawn less than 1500 each time, you would probably have been paid before the casino could put a stop on the money. They would then have had to investigate the game and ask for the money back from players if they found fault.

The supplier obviously has not yet decided a fault exists, else they would have pulled the game.

There are a fair few games that get released with such "emptiers" in them, just like in the B&M business;)
 
If a game has been around a good while than I do not think there should be really any excuse, Its funny how I have come across a number of complaints in his area & why on earth should it take this long to sort out (weeks)

Also you do you not come across any person claiming they have received a payment back as games was not working right?

Just like when they claim that a withdrawal is on hold due to tech problems with banking, Well its funny how there is rarely a problem when depositing and when its time to cash out there seems to be a problem.
 
jonmincher said:
Wish I had a couple of 'emptiers' right now, especially as I still play B&M based slots now n again, gosh I miss them old days of refusing a couple of JP's on AWP only for it to 'throw the lot' at me :p
Click to expand...

You are not the only one:(

Blame leaps in computing technology and a fall in the price of the hardware.

They can now fit more complex games into the consoles, and they can also be monitored and managed remotely, so no more waiting for a physical chip replacement to kill off an "emptier" on the newer games. Online games can also be monitored, but it seems it's an "on demand" system, so that provided players don't get too greedy, an online "emptier" can last up to a decade:D

What is rather concerning is when an old game suddenly develops such a fault after years of trouble free operation. Either it's because not even the best AP spotted the exploit for all those years, or the game was changed recently, and the change introduced the fault. Old games should not be getting changed, certainly not at the level of the underlying mechanics, bonus rounds, and RTP. If the faults are caused by casinos trying to get one over on players by changing the RTP or variance of an existing game, then it's only karma biting them in the ass when the change COSTS them money rather than increasing profits.
 
spintee said:
Also you do you not come across any person claiming they have received a payment back as games was not working right?
Click to expand...

I was thinking about this as well, if there turned out to be a fault I'm pretty sure the casino won't be refunding money to the people who lost on the game!!

So is there anything worth me actually doing now? I found a thread on here from a long time ago when one of the admins or someone who mediates got involved and it was a very similar situation to this and they ended up being paid fairly soon after.

Part of me thinks it could be down to the large amount and as someone mentioned previously, it's just a delaying tactic in the hope they find another reason why I can't be paid.
 
Certainly will not be getting no refunds back if game found they was errors, For any person, More chance hitting a few jackpots in a row,

What I can say is take a look here


https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/help/pab-rules/

Make sure you read all the terms, Also would be good to no what site you was playing

rpc said:
I was thinking about this as well, if there turned out to be a fault I'm pretty sure the casino won't be refunding money to the people who lost on the game!!

So is there anything worth me actually doing now? I found a thread on here from a long time ago when one of the admins or someone who mediates got involved and it was a very similar situation to this and they ended up being paid fairly soon after.

Part of me thinks it could be down to the large amount and as someone mentioned previously, it's just a delaying tactic in the hope they find another reason why I can't be paid.
Click to expand...
 
vinylweatherman said:
That's very strange, but it has happened before because of a lack of communication between supplier and it's clients. It allows players who know there is a glitch to run around looking for casinos that haven't cottoned on yet, and they are OK until the supplier declares there is a fault and pulls the game. The 2015 CM awards detail such a case where a player found out that there was a glitch, and went around a number of casinos to exploit it due to the way the supplier mishandled the issue.

In this case, had you withdrawn less than 1500 each time, you would probably have been paid before the casino could put a stop on the money. They would then have had to investigate the game and ask for the money back from players if they found fault.

The supplier obviously has not yet decided a fault exists, else they would have pulled the game.

There are a fair few games that get released with such "emptiers" in them, just like in the B&M business;)
Click to expand...

Have you got a link to the CM award bit about the guy please? Wanted to read it but can't find it!
 
All that paled though in comparison to his Magnum Opus that dropped early in 2014. He filed a new PAB that named not one but six unrelated casinos who were apparently cheating him _simultaneously_. Across these casinos he was claiming over $400,000 in winnings owed and -- you may have guessed it -- he was the victim of "biggest scandal of all time online".

We didn't have to wait long to find out what had really happened: the casino managers started warning us of a scam that they'd just learned of. All of it related to a payout bug in a new game, the same game at all the casinos, and HIGHIQ had nailed each of them in exactly the same way.
Click to expand...

The problem is getting so greedy over a short period of time that the casinos start to realise there is something wrong.

Fruit machine players back in the "golden era" would not empty the entire machine, even though it was possible. Instead, they would take it down to having one more jackpot or two left, and then kill the emptier. This meant the operating company were not constantly being called in because a specific machine kept on running empty and causing another player to put in a claim. This would only alert them to the possibility of a problem related specifically related to that game, and it would be reported back to the supplier for an investigation. A well managed "empty" would last for months, because the operator saw no real clues. In the end, MORE money could be made than a quick full empty over a short space of time of all available units.

HIGHIQ could have made far more over a longer period of time by NOT harvesting an eye watering $400,000 in a "quick hit".
 
rpc said:
I was thinking about this as well, if there turned out to be a fault I'm pretty sure the casino won't be refunding money to the people who lost on the game!!

If there happens to be an error in any given game, and the players was complaining about the outcome, the casinos response would be in the lines of... Sorry you had a bad session. Unfortunately this is the nature of the beast...

The op should say im sorry i won a lot. Unfortunately thats the nature of the beast.
Click to expand...
 
How convenient for casinos to hide behind a malfunction. Either there really something is going on or it's another stalling technique hoping for you to reverse.

I've not once ever heard of a casino or software supplier refunding customers because of malfunction or reach out to them to let them know something is wrong. Then it just get swept under the carpet or corrected behind closed doors. We as players always seem to have to pay the price eventually.
 
Don't most casinos have a term that says "a malfunction voids all winnings?" Since the manager did not use that (yet) to take your winnings, this supplier excuse seems like they would like to find a reason to void your winnings.

Stand your ground and DO NOT REVERSE. Keep them communicating with you until the situation is resolved.

This is my best advice. Good luck to you.
 
mina888 said:
rpc said:
I was thinking about this as well, if there turned out to be a fault I'm pretty sure the casino won't be refunding money to the people who lost on the game!!

If there happens to be an error in any given game, and the players was complaining about the outcome, the casinos response would be in the lines of... Sorry you had a bad session. Unfortunately this is the nature of the beast...

The op should say im sorry i won a lot. Unfortunately thats the nature of the beast.
Click to expand...

This is EXACTLY how it would turn out had players not been so greedy that the sheer volume of payouts convinced the casino that it was more than "the nature of the beast" at play. The money would be with the player, and it would be the casino having to convince the player to return it (good luck with that:) ), or having sufficient evidence to take the matter to court to enforce "malfunction voids play". Of course any "malfunction voids play" brings with it the danger that players who LOST will also demand that the rule also applies to them in the same way as to winners. It would seem to be better in most cases for casinos to accept that they have to pay out a few players who have gained, with the benefit being that they can fix the fault on the quiet, and those players who lost on the game will be none the wiser to the possibility of a refund because the game was faulty. This is probably why many cases are "swept under the carpet", even with casinos agreeing to pay up rather than admit there was a fault in one of their games.

It's when the fault is such a major one that the losses due to paying out would be unacceptable that the "malfunction voids play" is rolled out despite the negative PR that surrounds a glitched game having gone live.
Click to expand...
 
vinylweatherman said:
The problem is getting so greedy over a short period of time that the casinos start to realise there is something wrong.

Fruit machine players back in the "golden era" would not empty the entire machine, even though it was possible. Instead, they would take it down to having one more jackpot or two left, and then kill the emptier. This meant the operating company were not constantly being called in because a specific machine kept on running empty and causing another player to put in a claim. This would only alert them to the possibility of a problem related specifically related to that game, and it would be reported back to the supplier for an investigation. A well managed "empty" would last for months, because the operator saw no real clues. In the end, MORE money could be made than a quick full empty over a short space of time of all available units.

HIGHIQ could have made far more over a longer period of time by NOT harvesting an eye watering $400,000 in a "quick hit".
Click to expand...

Where is the story I can read about thee 400k scam, cheers
 
suzecat said:
Don't most casinos have a term that says "a malfunction voids all winnings?" Since the manager did not use that (yet) to take your winnings, this supplier excuse seems like they would like to find a reason to void your winnings.

Stand your ground and DO NOT REVERSE. Keep them communicating with you until the situation is resolved.

This is my best advice. Good luck to you.
Click to expand...

Yep, pretty much every single one does nowadays, both online and also the offline casino machines.

It's the 3 week period for it to be checked which has made me suspicious. After 10 days she said it would definitely be at the end of next week, meaning 3 weeks at least before anything is sorted. Looks like one of two things to me, the supplier is indeed investigating and giving a period of 3 weeks to see if any further problems arise with other casinos. Or, the casino in question is just trying to delay for as long as possible. I cannot for a second believe that the supplier would let it take 3 weeks whilst people are out there potentially exploiting it (I don't think there is actually an issue though to exploit).

What do you mean by do not reverse? I literally can't do a thing at the moment. The manager has yet to speak via phone (even though I was told she'd ring me a couple of times when the withdrawals were put on hold) and has only allowed me to speak to her via Skype and email, makes me question whether its even a women. Every time I've contacted her the only thing she's saying is that she's heard nothing back yet and will update me as soon as she hears anything.

Do you think it'd be worth doing a PAB? Would that mean potential assistance from people here in contacting the casino and hopefully rectifying the problem?

Thanks for all the responses.
 
vinylweatherman said:
mina888 said:
This is EXACTLY how it would turn out had players not been so greedy that the sheer volume of payouts convinced the casino that it was more than "the nature of the beast" at play. The money would be with the player, and it would be the casino having to convince the player to return it (good luck with that:) ), or having sufficient evidence to take the matter to court to enforce "malfunction voids play". Of course any "malfunction voids play" brings with it the danger that players who LOST will also demand that the rule also applies to them in the same way as to winners. It would seem to be better in most cases for casinos to accept that they have to pay out a few players who have gained, with the benefit being that they can fix the fault on the quiet, and those players who lost on the game will be none the wiser to the possibility of a refund because the game was faulty. This is probably why many cases are "swept under the carpet", even with casinos agreeing to pay up rather than admit there was a fault in one of their games.

It's when the fault is such a major one that the losses due to paying out would be unacceptable that the "malfunction voids play" is rolled out despite the negative PR that surrounds a glitched game having gone live.
Click to expand...

Was that aimed at me (about being greedy) or exploitations in general? I didn't think there was one and it certainly wasn't a case of me trying to take advantage of it, as I said, I fluctuated wildly and it wasn't as if I got big win after big win.
Click to expand...
 
rpc said:
vinylweatherman said:
Was that aimed at me (about being greedy) or exploitations in general? I didn't think there was one and it certainly wasn't a case of me trying to take advantage of it, as I said, I fluctuated wildly and it wasn't as if I got big win after big win.
Click to expand...


In general. Casinos would first be alerted to a problem when they see significant amounts of money being won on a particular game over a long enough period of time that would rule out "just being lucky". It's like the old fruit machine emptiers. They get noticed because machines keep on running out of coins, and players who don't receive their due payouts then make claims. When there is a rash of claims on one particular game, the operator then considers the possibility that it has an "emptier" that is doing the rounds.

It's not always a case of just one player being greedy either, it could also be that too many people are "in the know" that even lightly dipping into the advantage can lead to a collective swing in the game's payout stats. Some may feel that they have to act quick by taking as much as possible because the glitch is bound to get noticed and shut down quickly.

In the case of online games, smaller withdrawals tend to suffer less scrutiny than bigger ones, and without an audit, it won't be known what games produced the winnings. Play without a bonus also tends to come under less scrutiny because there is no "advantage bonus play" to look for. However, non bonus play where the amount wagered seems too little for the amount deposited comes under scrutiny because it might be a sign of money laundering activity.
Click to expand...
 
Ok so I've contacted the manager again and she said she's contacted the supplier again and they've said they are still working on it and an independant regulator is reviewing the game and to expect an answer by the end of the week.

Still seems like a load of rubbish and I'm just being strung along. Every time I contact them they seem to have a bit more new info just to keep me ticking along.
 
It's now been 3 weeks since they put my withdrawals on hold and all I keep getting is the same line that they are awaiting to hear back from the developer who are waiting for the independent regulator to get back to them... Is it worth me starting a PAB?
 

Similar threads

S
Icecasino - Punished for old deposits, lost to fast
Replies
10
Views
462
maxd
maxd
A
PAB in progress Videoslots deactivated account
Replies
2
Views
493
GourdFollower
GourdFollower
H
PLAYUK (GRACEMEDIA) withdrawal being stalled via ‘gameplay review’
Replies
16
Views
740
hks91
H
T
Foxy Bingo refusing to look into missing balance
Replies
7
Views
574
Summer_Nights
S
A
Scam Casino Winstler SCAM CASINO wont refund my deposits
Replies
5
Views
1K
Webzcas
Webzcas

Users who are viewing this thread

Total: 2 (members: 0, guests: 2)

Meister Ratings

Read about our rating system and how it's done.
Back
Top