Casino Complaint refusal to pay out

mikeydsalford · Feb 1, 2015

Hi. I have recently used my mobile phone account to bet with a company called mfortune. I deposited £120 using my phone bill method and luckily won a small amount more than my deposited amount to cover phone bill. I withdrew the funds to my bank account but was told send in my id for proof of age and address which I did. Then somebody called me to say I can not have the money unless I pay all the money I deposited onto my phone bill, plus any other charges on my bill for upto that date of paying out request and abit further. I told them I need the money from winnings to do this they could even just forfeit my winnings but put my deposited funds back to my mobile phone account which they refused.
They were basically telling me they are keeping the money and won't give it to 02 network unless I give it to 02 first.
If when I were depositing this way there was a single thing telling me I would have to pay phone bill first then I wouldn't of done it. What would be the point of having this service if I had to then use my bank card anyway. Is there anything I can do as with out that Money it is then putting me in big debt with 02 when I shouldn't have been as I won. I realise this wasn't a wise decision to do but Was not notified of this rule.
Thanks very much

randomiam · Feb 1, 2015

mikeydsalford said:
Hi. I have recently used my mobile phone account to bet with a company called mfortune. I deposited £120 using my phone bill method and luckily won a small amount more than my deposited amount to cover phone bill. I withdrew the funds to my bank account but was told send in my id for proof of age and address which I did. Then somebody called me to say I can not have the money unless I pay all the money I deposited onto my phone bill, plus any other charges on my bill for upto that date of paying out request and abit further. I told them I need the money from winnings to do this they could even just forfeit my winnings but put my deposited funds back to my mobile phone account which they refused.
They were basically telling me they are keeping the money and won't give it to 02 network unless I give it to 02 first.
If when I were depositing this way there was a single thing telling me I would have to pay phone bill first then I wouldn't of done it. What would be the point of having this service if I had to then use my bank card anyway. Is there anything I can do as with out that Money it is then putting me in big debt with 02 when I shouldn't have been as I won. I realise this wasn't a wise decision to do but Was not notified of this rule.
Thanks very much

i see what your saying and its a crap rule but heres what it comes down to they dont get paid till you pay the bill right so there not going to pay till they get there deposit money its a standard thing as they dont want to lose out get a payday loan or borrow the cash and pay the phone bill
and if you still dont get your money theres a issue there

bigjohn · Feb 1, 2015

The best thing you can do is pay your bills first and don't count on the casino to do it for you.

Jd666 · Feb 1, 2015

I didnt even know this payment method was available in the UK.

Its nasty and surely people will get into a lot of debt doing this.

I wouldnt have thought the UKGC would have given a license for this

Jono777 · Feb 1, 2015

Back in my Naive days I managed to build up 2K debt with orange using this deposit method and Mfortune as well as other casinos.

This rule was not in place then and I got paid every time on my winning days, In fact cheques were arriving almost daily

However I've learnt my lesson since then and grown up a lot and will be paying Orange back until retirement age!!!

mikeydsalford · Feb 1, 2015

Thanks everyone for your comments. So then am I right in assuming if they don't get paid until I pay my phone bill, then that means 02 have not gave them the funds so how can they be now chasing me for the £120. I spoke to them and they say this needs paying but if they not payed it to mfortune then what am I paying for???

Jd666 · Feb 1, 2015

mikeydsalford said:
Thanks everyone for your comments. So then am I right in assuming if they don't get paid until I pay my phone bill, then that means 02 have not gave them the funds so how can they be now chasing me for the £120. I spoke to them and they say this needs paying but if they not payed it to mfortune then what am I paying for???

I dont know if its the same nowadays, but reverse SMS payments used to take about 4 weeks to reach the merchant.
That was on PAYG sim cards with spare credit on them.
With contract sim cards you are using funds which arent there so thats probably why you wont see anything until you pay the bill.
I would get a premium rate bar put on your sim card ASAP

spintee · Feb 1, 2015

Its a risky old game for any person involved, Imagine how many thousands put aload of money in, Lose and than tell the phone company to shove it,

Try and just pay the phone bill but do not go spending the rest of winnings, What if you did not win?

chayton · Feb 1, 2015

Look at it from the casino point of view. What if they paid you and you didn't pay the phone bill? Then 02 would reverse the deposit and the casino would be out deposit and the withdrawal that they paid you with no way to get it back.

TBH it's not that surprising most casinos have a rule about how deposits have to be cleared before withdrawals are paid out. There's an ewallet available in Canada that debits from your bank, you can use the $ to play, but when you withdraw, you might have to wait until that deposit clears. Because some people deposit and if they lose they decide they would rather cancel that charge and keep the money so they'll spend it or remove it from the account before it has a chance to go through, like doing a chargeback with a credit card.

Spintee had a good point in the post above, what if you hadn't won something, how did you expect to pay the bill then?

mikeydsalford · Feb 1, 2015

I get that with what your saying. My point is they DID NOT pay me. 02 network DID NOT pay them so all should be ok in my opinion. But the fact remains 02 want there money regardless of them not paying to mfortune. There is no point us sitting here saying What if this what if that. If you read my original post I know it was a stupid thing to do. I came here for help not to be belittled or lectured. I think having £120 hanging over my head is enough said. Lesson learned.

Gaz237 · Feb 1, 2015

Opinion

mikeydsalford said:
I get that with what your saying. My point is they DID NOT pay me. 02 network DID NOT pay them so all should be ok in my opinion. But the fact remains 02 want there money regardless of them not paying to mfortune. There is no point us sitting here saying What if this what if that. If you read my original post I know it was a stupid thing to do. I came here for help not to be belittled or lectured. I think having £120 hanging over my head is enough said. Lesson learned.

Your opinion is wrong.

You have been given advice (help). But it seems your not willing to listen to anyone's opinion but your own.

:rolleyes:

Jono777 · Feb 1, 2015

To add to my point earlier, its the phone company chasing me for the debt not the casino and I was depositing daily for a few weeks and getting cheques for withdrawals 2-3 days after W/D made, Orange did not contact me or bar the contract sim until after a few weeks when alarm bells were probably ringing their end but at no point was there ever an issue either way with the casinos.

Like I say i was a total idiot for doing this and am still unsure how it all works but it seems that I probably wasn't the only one to exploit this 'alternative loan' option and this is the reason the casino(s) now insist participants pay their bills first which I now totally agree with

spintee · Feb 1, 2015

mikeydsalford said:
I get that with what your saying. My point is they DID NOT pay me. 02 network DID NOT pay them so all should be ok in my opinion. But the fact remains 02 want there money regardless of them not paying to mfortune. There is no point us sitting here saying What if this what if that. If you read my original post I know it was a stupid thing to do. I came here for help not to be belittled or lectured. I think having £120 hanging over my head is enough said. Lesson learned.

I will be the last person to lecture anyone, If the world relied on (I OWE YOU's) There would be no such things as stearling, banks, cards ect, Unfortunately its not as simple as calling it quits as if you owed your mate £100 and another mate owed you & you said just pass the money you owe me to him, Even that causes trouble,

I think more than the phone company and casino are involved and all want there share of the pie, Its a risky business if you relied on any winnings to pay the bill, Are you sure the phone company told you that they want the money of you first? Maybe mfourtune are just waiting to be paid by phone company,

spintee · Feb 1, 2015

Try speaking to financial ombudsman, If Orange was letting you spend x amount and no Qs ask than maybe they sort you a good whack of what you owe them,

By the way what was you doing with the cheques

jonmincher said:
To add to my point earlier, its the phone company chasing me for the debt not the casino and I was depositing daily for a few weeks and getting cheques for withdrawals 2-3 days after W/D made, Orange did not contact me or bar the contract sim until after a few weeks when alarm bells were probably ringing their end but at no point was there ever an issue either way with the casinos.

Like I say i was a total idiot for doing this and am still unsure how it all works but it seems that I probably wasn't the only one to exploit this 'alternative loan' option and this is the reason the casino(s) now insist participants pay their bills first which I now totally agree with

Jono777 · Feb 1, 2015

This was a long time ago mate and until I saw this thread I'd totally forgotten the finer details (apart from the monthly payment to orange lol)

I was just trying to help the OP out by sharing my experiences (and faults too

)

As a guess it was about 5 years ago when I was exploiting this 'method' and I was on first name terms in my local 'Cash a cheque' centre.

Seemed like 'free money' at the time as sometimes I'd deposit max allowed onto phone bill, make a handful of spins and then W/D.

All went downhill fast when the phone bill arrived and the collections department were ringing me daily. I'm 100% sure the casinos got paid as I've never had any contact with them but as It was my idiocy and my morals are more or less right I will pay Orange everything I owe them (eventually)

chayton · Feb 1, 2015

mikeydsalford said:
I get that with what your saying. My point is they DID NOT pay me. 02 network DID NOT pay them so all should be ok in my opinion. But the fact remains 02 want there money regardless of them not paying to mfortune. There is no point us sitting here saying What if this what if that. If you read my original post I know it was a stupid thing to do. I came here for help not to be belittled or lectured. I think having £120 hanging over my head is enough said. Lesson learned.

I certainly wasn't trying to belittle you, it was just a question. As for the whole mfortune/02 thing, I'm assuming it works like this - you initiate a payment through 02 to mfortune. 02 sends a notice to mfortune (like a promissory note) and the casino in GOOD FAITH puts the money into your account. You play and go to cash out, but then the casino says, wait a minute...we never did get a deposit. 02 says they didn't get a deposit either. The fact that no money actually changed hands doesn't negate the fact that the casino put that money into your account and you were able to use it to play. Probably if you deposit the money to 02 in a reasonable timeframe they will then send the money on to the casino and then the casino will process your withdrawal, so you won't actually be out anything except some wasted time.

Captain Chaos · Feb 1, 2015

I think what they are trying to say is that they are waiting for you to pay the o2 bill so as o2 can forward the money to them. I'm assuming this is working similarly to that of a CC. The difference being the levels of protection on the payments and that. With a CC, the casino will get paid whether you pay the CC or not. That doesn't work this way with this type of deposit method I believe. o2 only pay up when you do. So, from the Casinos point of view it would make perfect sense to defer payment to you till that deposit money is obtained. Otherwise I can see it being wide open to abuse and free-rolling of the casino (if you don't mind screwing up your credit rating that is).

Best advice is to pay up and wait till the casino gets the cash and go from there. I honestly didn't realise you could do such things with mPayments. I thought they were restricted to low level purchases to protect the network operator. Guess I was wrong.

Jd666 · Feb 1, 2015

Captain Chaos said:
I think what they are trying to say is that they are waiting for you to pay the o2 bill so as o2 can forward the money to them. I'm assuming this is working similarly to that of a CC. The difference being the levels of protection on the payments and that. With a CC, the casino will get paid whether you pay the CC or not. That doesn't work this way with this type of deposit method I believe. o2 only pay up when you do. So, from the Casinos point of view it would make perfect sense to defer payment to you till that deposit money is obtained. Otherwise I can see it being wide open to abuse and free-rolling of the casino (if you don't mind screwing up your credit rating that is).

Best advice is to pay up and wait till the casino gets the cash and go from there. I honestly didn't realise you could do such things with mPayments. I thought they were restricted to low level purchases to protect the network operator. Guess I was wrong.

It would probably be a few smaller transactions.
When I used to cash in sim card credit when I used to be a sim card distributor, a tenner transaction would take 3 or 4 reverse billing texts.
Probably be able to do bigger amounts on the casino but probably not 120 in one go

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