WishMaster Excluded from Bonus Play

I just found out that The WishMaster is now excluded from Bonus Play at Casino Luck - apparently this is for a 'few weeks' according to Live Chat. Are there any other places that are adopting this? I don't want to speculate either, but does anyone know why?

Nate

Thrills casino too.

My guess is that Wishmaster probably pays bigger proportion of it's RTP in de facto x500-x2000 hits than pretty much any other slot out there, and according to experiences of some casinos this does not mix well with bonuses from their point of view.

Finn said:

My guess is that Wishmaster probably pays bigger proportion of it's RTP in de facto x500-x2000 hits than pretty much any other slot out there, and according to experiences of some casinos this does not mix well with bonuses from their point of view.

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Damn... I was hoping they would remove CFTBL and TwinSpin for the same reason.... Oh wait... They actually make the Casino money

Nate

Yes I only found out it was excluded at Thrills when I went to play it, not sure why the ban, as above it is very streaky. But a lot of slots are like this.

The other reason could be the potential of getting 3 good wishes on a relatively high stake and saving these spins for when not playing with a bonus.

Well I thought that this was an 'EveryMatrix' thing:

The Chat rep at Guts said they weren't aware of such a rule. The ABC (although not on EM) rep also clarified that they do not block the game.

For now it seems its Thrills and Casinoluck (I would assume sisters Superlenny and NextCasino would be included)

Nate

Kind of strange really.

Sure I have some ok hits on it but I had to lose my shirt and one shoe first, which would have had me bust on any and many bonuses.


Guess a lot of people got lucky at these 2 casinos on the game and they didn't like it.

Nate said:

Well I thought that this was an 'EveryMatrix' thing:

The Chat rep at Guts said they weren't aware of such a rule. The ABC (although not on EM) rep also clarified that they do not block the game.

For now it seems its Thrills and Casinoluck (I would assume sisters Superlenny and NextCasino would be included)

Nate

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At least they block the game so that these strange terms do not trap the unwary. However, the strategy of blocking ever more slot games from a slots bonus could backfire on the operators because the refusal to explain why this is happening causes speculation as to why, and since the RTP is published, and is not overly generous, it means speculation has to be on other things.

It could be the good wishes, or the streakiness, or anything else, but it can also suggest to players that some games are excluded because just as in Animal Farm "all slots are random, but some are more random than others", with the "less random" slots being the ones that are both excluded, and the better deal for the player.

I noticed this yesterday at thrills, It would not load so I automatically guessed that it is now bared from bonus play, Which in a way was a good thing as I had a little win for once, I see Nate mentioned about twinspin, Glad that stayed as that gave me a good few wins

Hi,

I can only speak for Thrills & SuperLenny, but the reason it was excluded had nothing to do with players winning on this slot. We like winners - They make the happiest players

However, after thorough investigation we found that a group of players had started playing this and similar slots with ill intent. I would like to avoid going into detail, but as you can guess these players were trying to get an advantage using one of our generous bonus offers. Also I want to emphasize that it had nothing to do with this games Streakiness or RNG that made us exclude it.

To avoid any "shady T&Cs" the Casino Team decided to simply exclude The Wish Master and a few more games from bonus play completely. All-in-all 5 games have been excluded from bonus play - But there's still 500+ games still included!

Regards
Erik

One year ago I said that all this bonus hunting/abusing is bullshit and will touch "normal" players soon.

A lot of members told me that this is like a competition and it`s the way it has to go.

Well, here we are. The "normal" player has to pay the price.

Thanks to all the fraudsters around. More restrictions , more rules for bonuses, that`s the consequence for ME and most players here in this forum.

Brockie said:

The other reason could be the potential of getting 3 good wishes on a relatively high stake and saving these spins for when not playing with a bonus.

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I think that this is exactly the reason of exclusion. Erik made some hints in his post.

asghan said:

I think that this is exactly the reason of exclusion. Erik made some hints in his post.

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Where please?

When he mentioned about other games being excluded along with Wishmaster.

Those games are: Devil's Delight, Champion of the Track and Robin Hood.

They all work in similar way, you are collecting bonus symbols. like souls in Devil's Delight, and then you play bonus round.

Bonus hunters are collecting symbols with bonus funds, and then they return to play bonus round with real cash.

I guess it must be the same with Wishmaster and wishes.

asghan said:

When he mentioned about other games being excluded along with Wishmaster.

Those games are: Devil's Delight, Champion of the Track and Robin Hood.

They all work in similar way, you are collecting bonus symbols. like souls in Devil's Delight, and then you play bonus round.

Bonus hunters are collecting symbols with bonus funds, and then they return to play bonus round with real cash.

I guess it must be the same with Wishmaster and wishes.

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Rather silly slot design then.

Surely the designers knew full well that giving bonuses is the mainstay of the online casino industry, yet they failed to take this into account when designing the games.

The good thing is that they did manage to implement software based enforcement that blocks access to the banned games, so no player should be capable of breaking this term.

However, are they sure they have not simply moved the problem, rather than having solved it?

It's the zeroing out of WR when the player busts out that has made this AP method (and others) a problem. If WR routinely carried over, many of the AP methods would be worthless, and as such it would be possible to reduce the current dizzyingly high WR requirements back to levels not seen in a decade or more.

The clever and crafty players are simply going to look for the next method of gaining an advantage, and this will be the case for as long as casinos rely so much on bonuses. All they are REALLY doing is trying to win over the long term, the same thing that the operators are trying to do. The clever players look for the best ways to play the games and offers, whilst the operators look for the best ways to market their wares and entice players into parting with their money. SPAM is one thing that is the operator equivalent of "playing the game with ill intent", misleading advertising of an offer to make it appear much better than it is another "ill intent" in the marketing game.

Since it is almost unheard of to receive 32Red spam, the operators who do seem to get involved with spam are doing less than they are capable of in order to address the problem, hence the "ill intent" of turning a blind eye in order to gain the advantage that a small percentage of conversions IS from responses to spam, which they would lose were they to adopt a strict "zero tolerance" approach.

Some misleading spam from the 32Red group

Sorry to digress.... But

vinylweatherman said:

Since it is almost unheard of to receive 32Red spam, the operators who do seem to get involved with spam are doing less than they are capable of in order to address the problem, hence the "ill intent" of turning a blind eye in order to gain the advantage that a small percentage of conversions IS from responses to spam, which they would lose were they to adopt a strict "zero tolerance" approach.

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What they neglected to mention was that it was actually a £25 bonus. It only worked out at 100% for a £25 deposit. if you were to deposit £50, it would have been a 50% bonus, deposit £100 (which I was intending to do), a 25% bonus.
The link to 'find out more' just lead to the standard bonus T&C
I emailed CS about it, but never had a reply. So I just uninstalled Dash.

I played at Casino Luck yesterday. Deposited with a bonus and went to WM but was denied making spins where I was told there was not enough money in my account. Played other games, busted out and deposited 20 bucks and won another 20 at the live casino. Went to WM again and the same thing happened. It was a full cash balance so maybe its more a glitch than not allowing the slot to be played with a bonus.

asghan said:

When he mentioned about other games being excluded along with Wishmaster.

Those games are: Devil's Delight, Champion of the Track and Robin Hood.

They all work in similar way, you are collecting bonus symbols. like souls in Devil's Delight, and then you play bonus round.

Bonus hunters are collecting symbols with bonus funds, and then they return to play bonus round with real cash.

I guess it must be the same with Wishmaster and wishes.

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Ahh, I will admit this was not something I thought of but should have. I have had 3 of the bonus symbols before when I have gone bust and the symbols stay there when I next load up with funds.

Wishmaster is a lot harder to achieve the 3 bonus symbols than collecting them on the other games you mentioned above but I can now see how it could be problematic and bonus abusers would try to use it to there advantage.

Erik said:

Also I want to emphasize that it had nothing to do with this games Streakiness or RNG that made us exclude it.

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Thanks for replying Erik.

We've heard in the past of groups of AP's taking bonuses together and then betting big on a high variance game. Should be able to find a solution without banning the game

asghan said:

When he mentioned about other games being excluded along with Wishmaster.

Those games are: Devil's Delight, Champion of the Track and Robin Hood.

They all work in similar way, you are collecting bonus symbols. like souls in Devil's Delight, and then you play bonus round.

Bonus hunters are collecting symbols with bonus funds, and then they return to play bonus round with real cash.

I guess it must be the same with Wishmaster and wishes.

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It's not the same at all. It's possible to get all 3 wishes on your very first spin on WM while it's not possible on the other games. You don't really collect things on WM, you just get lucky if you get many bonus symbols in a few spins.


The problem has been openly discussed here in the past, Erik can't say it but I can.

A group of AP's (say 5 ppl) takes the bonus and bets high on a high variance game (like WM). If they win, they split the money. Since they are all playing as "one entity" vs the casino, from the casino's POV it's like giving out the bonus 5 times to the same player. They play a high variance game and bet big so if they win it's still worth it after the money has been split.

One player depositing $100 with a 100% bonus ($200 bankroll) spinning WM at $6/spin doesn't have a good chance to hit something big.
Five players depositing $100 each with a 100% bonus (so a $1000 total bankroll) spinning WM at $6/spin have a MUCH better chance to do it though.

They could do it on any game, but WM seems like a good balance of "high variance vs chances of triggering a good win" slot. Perfect slot to try to pull that sort of "scam".

One more thing...

For those wondering why someone would do that instead of depositing $100 on their own, getting a bonus ($200 bankroll) and playing at $1.20/spin... it's true that the chances of winning would be the same and the money at the end would also be the same (would win 5x less but wouldn't have to share). However, the advantage here is WR. In the first example, they'd get $500 worth of bonus but would only have to complete WR on $100. That's where they cheat the system.

I have waited for this to come. Collecting slot machines, the ones who collect symbols or features which can be played later do attract EV+ seekers.

This is not about the high variance at all. If so, it would be DoA or COTBL they chose to restrict from bonus play.

RTG have a few collecting machines, MG have a few. There was a time when MG players could collect symbols/features on Scrooge, Wealth Spa and Tomb Raider 2 using high stakes with bonus money and then return with their own funds later. It was not restricted at all.

Brockie said:

The other reason could be the potential of getting 3 good wishes on a relatively high stake and saving these spins for when not playing with a bonus.

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gagamel said:

Well, here we are. The "normal" player has to pay the price.

Thanks to all the fraudsters around. More restrictions , more rules for bonuses, that`s the consequence for ME and most players here in this forum.

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Yes, "normal" players have to pay the price. Fraudsters are not the same as bonus hunters or EV+ seekers. As long as players do follow rules and are legitimate players, they are not fraudsters.

asghan said:

When he mentioned about other games being excluded along with Wishmaster.

Those games are: Devil's Delight, Champion of the Track and Robin Hood.

They all work in similar way, you are collecting bonus symbols. like souls in Devil's Delight, and then you play bonus round.

Bonus hunters are collecting symbols with bonus funds, and then they return to play bonus round with real cash.

I guess it must be the same with Wishmaster and wishes.

Click to expand...

Yes!

NetEnt have some more machines (not mentioned in this thread I think) who really do depend on earlier spins:

Aliens
Eggomatic
Lucky Angler
Big Bang
Crime Scene

Theoretically, a player can use bonus funds to play these games and then leave it at the right moment and then return with their own funds. Just to let you know.

Edited out.
I thought the slot may have just paid well. But after reading further posts it seems there was some kind of flaw in the game which allowed it to be abused.

Brockie said:

The other reason could be the potential of getting 3 good wishes on a relatively high stake and saving these spins for when not playing with a bonus.

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Yes, that is probably it. As I recall even in the bonus round you have to pay for your spins. Meaning that people on a bonus could bet high then finish it when they are not on a bonus, bypassing the WR.

maphesto said:

Theoretically, a player can use bonus funds to play these games and then leave it at the right moment and then return with their own funds. Just to let you know.

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Unless they are about to bust out and/or have very little WR done, that'd be pretty pointless. Collecting 3 good symbols would be a good thing to help them to go through WR in the first place.

It sure wouldn't be an elaborated scam worth banning the slot from being played with bonus funds...

Balthazar said:

Unless they are about to bust out and/or have very little WR done, that'd be pretty pointless. Collecting 3 good symbols would be a good thing to help them to go through WR in the first place.

It sure wouldn't be an elaborated scam worth banning the slot from being played with bonus funds...

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If the 3 good symbols were the random wild, expanding wild and one of either the orange or pink symbols with say over 10 spins this would almost likely bring a 500 times stake or more so I would see this as an 'advantage' so to speak.

It's a shame that 'advantage players' see this and ruin this for others like me who likes this game.

But from the casinos point of view it would be a nightmare trying to write terms and conditions about not leaving wishes in play.