Crystal Palace Probation?

The Dude · Aug 25, 2004

As most of you know, I have had my dealings with Warren Cloud in the past, (the operator of Crystal Palace, etc.), and these "dealings" have been mostly abrasive communications concerning player disputes and what-not. But over the past several months - we have been a bit more cordial, speaking directly over the phone, and WC has been taking care of any complaint that I have forwarded to him expediently and fairly.

One thing to note: many of the complaints that have been lodged against the WC casinos in the past have been fraudulent. Recently (last week) I had "two" different players lodge a complaint against CP (the player is a member of this forum BTW), and it was traced to one account - one person - and this is bullshit - but this is beside the point.

The point is is that Warren has requested to have his casinos removed from the rogue section and placed on probation. He feels that he has turned over a new leaf, and he feels that he has earned recognition for paying his players. Probation means that if the casino keeps its act together for six months - they are removed from the rogue section. If they ef up - they are thrown back in.

Well, why am I considering this? Mainly in the attempt to be fair - this is my main concern. If an operator requests that I should review his situation - then I will. Most of the time I will make the decision on my own - but this situation is different since so many people have been involved or affected.

Operator's reasons for probation:
All legitimate winnings are being paid. The casino has the right to deny bonuses to "advantage" players. But if a player is deemed a bonus abuser they are paid their winnings + deposits and allowed back in without a bonus.

Fraudulent players are given their deposits back but forfeit their winnings.

The operator has claimed to have turned over a new leaf.

My reason for consideration:
There have been hardly any complaints for the past several months - publicly or privately through the Pitch a Bitch. I'm trying to be as objective as possible, and in my honest opinion - when casinos have been making efforts in keeping their shit together - I need to look at this at this objectively.

But like I implied before, this is a complex matter that I think should be addressed by anyone who feels affected.

What I want from members of the Casinomeister's forum:
I want your input. Some of you are players at WC casinos, and have no problem with them. On the other hand, some of you have had your share of difficulties with these casinos. Now is the time to be heard. What I don't want are stupid rants and emotional outbursts. What I do want are facts and thoughtful opinions.

If anyone here has a complaint (new or old) on the following casinos, I have set up a special "Pitch a Bitch" section to address these. If you had an old issue that you felt was handled unfairly, please feel free to fill out the form as well.

Claims for the following casinos will be considered and reviewed:
Old URL
Crystal Palace
High Rollers Lounge
My Online Casino
Vegas Riches
Casino Zeal
Bigbonus-casino.biz
Freemoney-casino.biz
Gaming-money.biz
July-casino.biz
Lets-play-today.biz
My-casino-offer.biz
Partyime-casino.biz
Raining-money.biz
Summertime-casino.biz
Uno-casino.biz
Unreal-casino.biz

Since July 2003
Cleopatras Casino
Americas Online Casino
ClubMardiGras
Club Regal

Since July 2004
Lucky Coin
Luck Coin
Lucky Pyramid
Golden Nile
American Grand
Royal Circus
American Circus
Past associations:
Rated Player Casino

I will be absent from my place of duty from late tomorrow until the 5th of September. I will review everything submitted and make a decision on what course to take after then.

A final note: being on probation is a far cry from endorsement, please don't get this confused. I just want to keep things as objective and fair as possible at Casinomeister.

caruso · Aug 25, 2004

It's heartening to see rogues evidently affected by public opinion. This is at odds with the claim that "bad press is good for business" - Grand Banks and Virtual - and apparently also at odds with Cloud's own previous opinion, based on those memorable remarks from that earlier exchange.

Absolutely no redemption. This fellow set out his stall at Rated Player (LOL, before my time), continued the same line at Extreme (THE most notorious RTG back in the day, before Virtual v.1 / Prism came along), apparently eventually got kicked out and moved on to CP where he was locking accounts and causing general player stress from day one - I can personally testify to that. It sends out TOTALLY the wrong message to the rest of the RTG rogue stable if people like this, with this kind of a history, are allowed off the hook. There are plenty of good RTGs currently, and absolutely NO reason for players to be encouraged to patronize operations like this.

Sorry, Warren / Richard / Oliver / Donald - no.

bethug · Aug 25, 2004

If they paid all players. It cool with me. Just let him know if he goes back bam he back up. People and companies do change.

DeMango · Aug 25, 2004

Casinomeister;
I have bypassed some juicy email bonus offers from American Grand in the past several months with all the warnings from this site. With the new ownership and the apparant detente with WC, are we able to peruse these offers with some degree of confidence or is this thread for Crystal Palace only?

jerseyguy11 · Aug 25, 2004

I abstained. If they keep paying all their players thats a good thing. The power a casino has to label a player an "advantage player" is very troubling. But if this only affects the ability for a player to get a bonus AND HAS NO EFFECT ON PAYING OUT WINNINGS OR DEPOSITS, then maybe they can be redeemed, slowly.

jpm · Aug 25, 2004

Wow, this is a tough one Bryan. I think I would vote for a totally different option:

I'd like for Warren to come here and explain his rogue behavior and the reasons for it to all of us before we even consider letting him off the hook. Once you put them on probation, he just has to behave for 6 months and he's un-rogued (dis-rogued?). I think that's too easy for one with such a reputation for bad behavior. Lets have him here explaining why he behaved so badly and answer questions from the players (reasonable questions, not personal attacks). Then we can decide if he has EARNED probation.

lanidar · Aug 26, 2004

I didn't trust Warren / Richard / Oliver / Donald years ago and I don't trust him now. PERIOD.
His casinos must be losing money. Most likely, thanks to Casinomeister, no one is registering at his casinos.
I TRULY believe that this is a ploy to bring in business!
I guess you all know how I voted.

Medusa · Aug 26, 2004

I would like to see Warren explain this as well. And pay all the players due money from his casinos, myself included from getting stiffed at Golden Nile. (yes, I pitched a bitch) :cool:

lanidar · Aug 26, 2004

Medusa said:
I would like to see Warren explain this as well. And pay all the players due money from his casinos, myself included from getting stiffed at Golden Nile. (yes, I pitched a bitch)

"SO WOULD I"

caruso · Aug 26, 2004

From the newsletter: "But if a player is deemed a bonus abuser they are paid their winnings + deposits and allowed back in without a bonus."

I have an account at HRL. I played there ONCE, when it opened, and lost. It was locked immediately.

I have another at Crystal Palace. Ditto above, but here I won (balancing the above loss). I was paid, and locked immediately.

I have an account at Cleopatra's. I've NEVER used it. It was in good standing. It's now locked. I Emailed Cloud / Curran / Brooks / Fortune about this. Never got a reply.

I am spammed weekly or twice weekly with promo Emails for ALL the above casinos.

Also in the NL: "He operates over 25 casinos and some of these are RTG's most successful operations."

What an awful state of affairs, that the worst operator in terms of player abuse is also the most successful. What kind of a message does this send out to crook licensees, both current and future?

cipher · Aug 26, 2004

lanidar said:
"SO WOULD I"

I'd hav't to join in with Medusa and Lanidar on this one, but with one caveat.

There should be a way in which there could be a live feed set-up whereby Warren Cloud could present himself live here on the Casinomeister website while members of the Casinomeister forum ask Warren Cloud a myriad of questions. That way we would get a more true flavor as to his answers.

Who knows he may even be able to acquit himself. But anything short of that type of arrangement would not prompt my vote for a grant of probation.

Compared to even a couple of years ago this industry has done remarkably well in cleaning itself up through no help of the likes of Warren Cloud.

To give Warren Cloud even a chance to further muck things up would be a huge step backwards.

grabherp · Aug 26, 2004

I played at cleopatras casino with the 20$ and won 70$. That was 3 months ago. I asked for withdrawel 3 times, but it was rejected without a reason. No answer to all my emails. And suddenly my account there was closed this is really a disgrace! I want MY money WARREN NOW!!!!!!!!

If you read this my casino ID WAS: grabherp

cheers
grabherp

nafanny29 · Aug 26, 2004

I have voted no after looking back at some of the old threads!! It is a very rare leopard that changes his spots!!

Black21Jack · Aug 26, 2004

Funny thing is that I play at many of the casinos owned by this group including CP and I never have any problems with them. Their customer service responds to all inquiries I have within 30 minutes, and are very friendly and helpful. Hmm I wonder why this could be? Do a search for CP and see how many of the problems do not involve bonuses, I would wager not too many. It still does not make it right, and if they have such problems with bonus abusers they should not offer them. But like I said before 100% of casinos will pay based on a deposit only cashout, why not save yourself these headaches? I am still baffled. So my vote on the poll was "YES" based on the fact that businesses do change, and if someone is willing to step up and admit they were wrong in the past they should be forgiven. Being on probation means that one mess up and they are gone so no one loses.

thesmacker · Aug 26, 2004

I cant even beleive this is a real poll. If the masterminds of the suicide bombers from the World Trade Center asked for a second chance would you grant them one?

This is the most devious, underhanded casino operator ever to disgrace the internet. He represents all that is wrong with this industry, the way he so calously handles situations with such arrogance and dismay. He is a cancer on this industry and instead of being given a second chance, should be removed like a tumor.
Cheers

Sorcerak · Aug 26, 2004

This is the most devious, underhanded casino operator ever to disgrace the internet. He represents all that is wrong with this industry, the way he so calously handles situations with such arrogance and dismay. He is a cancer on this industry and instead of being given a second chance, should be removed like a tumor.

Now.. tell us how you REALLY feel about them

jpm · Aug 26, 2004

cipher said:
There should be a way in which there could be a live feed set-up whereby Warren Cloud could present himself live here on the Casinomeister website while members of the Casinomeister forum ask Warren Cloud a myriad of questions. That way we would get a more true flavor as to his answers.

Oh, an even better idea Cipher. This can be VERY easily done thru Webex. He could setup a webex session for all involved and use a webcam to present himself. Its all browser based, so anyone interested should have no problem joining in.

cipher · Aug 26, 2004

jpm said:
Oh, an even better idea Cipher. This can be VERY easily done thru Webex. He could setup a webex session for all involved and use a webcam to present himself. Its all browser based, so anyone interested should have no problem joining in.

Thanks for the technical assist JPM. Maybe we should be posting a poll on that suggestion. I don't know what I'm doing in setting up these polls but I'm all for it. Thanks again and have a good one.

zaphod42 · Aug 27, 2004

Wait a minute Bryan, let me get this straight:

For a casino to be deemed reputable it has to have a full year of clean operating history...

So why then can a nasty habitual rogue get himself redeemed with only 6 months of good behavior? It should be at least as long as it takes for a new casino to get your nod, should it not? And in the case of a serious repeat offender, I think it shoiuld probably take even longer...

At least, that's how I would handle it, but Casinomeister is much friendlier than me :notworthy

largeeyes · Aug 27, 2004

Wouldn't a reputable casino not be spamming like crazy? If so, why was my work email, with no relation whatsoever to casinos, bombarded with Casino Zeal ads?

LRDell · Aug 27, 2004

Never had a problem

I have always been one of the few supporters of CP on this forum. I understand that several people have had issues with CP and with Warren Cloud specifically, but Bryan asked for input from all who have had experiences with them.

I have made several nice cashouts (most recently for $4000) and never had a problem other than the waiting period. I have handled some small customer service issues with Oliver, and he has always been a gentleman and very helpful.

If Bryan feels that that there is evidence of a change in policies on Warren Clouds end, I believe probation might be a workable solution. The very concept of probation is to be under warning. Bryan could establish some very tight guidelines under which they immediately become rogue again if they cross the line.

And it might just have to cost WC a lot of $$$$ to clear up these old legitimate claims, and maybe probation wouldn't become effective until they are resolved.

Tester · Aug 27, 2004

I am owed

804. Have PM you the details.
Please let me know if you need more details or whatever.

rod729 · Aug 29, 2004

Vegas Strip

After a year of run-around, Warren told me flat out that I would not be paid. Only after I hired a lawyer, did I and a group of other cheated people see any of our money. Let him pay our lawyer's fee of 10% if he really wants to make amends and explain to us his actions. There are plenty of sites that will give you a fair game. Save taking a chance on the gambling, not on the cash-out.
Rod729

lanidar · Aug 29, 2004

rod729 said:
After a year of run-around, Warren told me flat out that I would not be paid. Only after I hired a lawyer, did I and a group of other cheated people see any of our money. Let him pay our lawyer's fee of 10% if he really wants to make amends and explain to us his actions. There are plenty of sites that will give you a fair game. Save taking a chance on the gambling, not on the cash-out.
Rod729

You hired a lawyer?
Did your group get all your monies less the attorneys fee?

jetset · Aug 30, 2004

I'm not sure if this is the same group, but if you search Casinomeister News there was a report not long ago of players getting their money by setting a lawyer onto Cloud - it gave the lawyer's address and I believe he was prepared to work on a contingency basis.

kpthomas · Aug 30, 2004

He's gotta pay up first

The Crystal Palace casinos, plus Cleopatra's and America's online, owe me thousands of dollars. It is not enough for him to say he has turned over a new leaf.

Moreover, labeling someone as a "bonus abuser" when that person has followed all the T&C is unacceptable.

I say NO WAY until he pays off all the people he has screwed.

caruso · Aug 30, 2004

rod729 said:
Only after I hired a lawyer, did I and a group of other cheated people see any of our money.

That must have been a hell of a big cashout for a lawyer to accept just 10% to take the case. Why did you not first go down the "traditional", cheaper complaints route (mediator / Montana, etc etc)? This deserved more attention than it got. It seems everybody, including me, had forgotten all about it - which should never have happened, and would NOT have happened if it had been more in the public eye.

So Cloud casinos settle all claims as long as the claimant can afford to hire a lawyer to go after him on the basis of a five / six figure cashout? And this is "one of the most successful RTG operators", and the single BIGGEST one, with TWENTY FIVE casinos?? And this is the operator who aspires to probation from "rogue" status?? On what basis? "We pay if you can afford to pay a lawyer to collect"??

The OC industry continues to disgust me on a daily basis.

I would love to know why this law suit was kept so low-key. At the very least it should have been posted prominently on all the boards after the resolution was achieved, and I've no idea why the involved parties didn't start with a more traditional form of affiliate mediation, the failure and subsequent publishing of the details of which would have been an excellent red flag to any uninformed players still patronising the Cloud operations.

jpm · Sep 9, 2004

BUMP

So what do you think Bryan?

Freudian · Sep 9, 2004

As long as a casino plays fair with their customers I have no problem with them being removed from the rogue section. After all the goal should be to have as many good operators as possible. If someone realized it's better business to behave well, I don't think past sins should be held against them forever. Actions speak louder than words.

Personally I feel there are enough good casinos so I won't go near any of his casinos. Not even if he had an immaculate conception and was sainted by the Vatican. But that is just how I am.

The Dude · Sep 9, 2004

jpm said:
BUMP

So what do you think Bryan?

I'm still a bit undecided on what route to take here. I still have some catching up to do, and a number of things to consider.

I'm a bit disappointed in the voting turnout in this thread - only 45 votes so far and this forum gets quite a bit of traffic. But this may go to show that there are a lot of newbies out there who are not privy to many of the incidents that surround the Warren Cloud casinos - and this whole thing is a non-issue.

There have only been a handful of unresolved complaints that are being addressed at the moment - as soon as I get caught up, I'll see which route to take on this.

Simmo! · Sep 9, 2004

casinomeister said:
I'm a bit disappointed in the voting turnout in this thread - only 45 votes so far and this forum gets quite a bit of traffic. But this may go to show that there are a lot of newbies out there who are not privy to many of the incidents that surround the Warren Cloud casinos - and this whole thing is a non-issue.

Actually, i have an opinion Bryan but do not feel qualified to vote. Due to plenty of issues/advice/gripes raised on these boards previously, i have simply avoided all RTG casinos so i can't say i have direct experience of CP etc being bad/good or otherwise - thus it would be unfair to sway the vote on reputation alone.

Blackjack21 said:
Do a search for CP and see how many of the problems do not involve bonuses, I would wager not too many.

Blackjack21 has the most relevant point on this thread IMHO. If BJ21 is correct, then I'd have some sympathy with WC. In my mind, anyone who is moaning and griping about "freebies" should have more sense. Its like getting a call from a Timeshare company to say you'd won a holiday then moaning they were trying to sell you something all along! No such thing as a free lunch and bonuses are the starter you have to eat 35 times over before you move onto the main course. Bonuses are for the gullible IMHO. Period.

Complaints about withdrawals against legitimate deposits however are a different kettle of fish. If this has been a problem with WC casinos in the past then i'd not be impressed.

So in essence Bryan, if was my decision, i'd look at it this way. If past problems are "bonus" related then I'd give him one final chance by removing CP from all lists (probation/rogue AND recommended) letting players decide for themselves. If they are taking liberties with legit players then the goose is well-and-truly cooked. I don't believe a leaopard changes its spots. It may improve and try a bit harder but one Pirate(C21) comes along and its back to Plan A!

jpm · Sep 9, 2004

Thanks Bryan. What about my idea of having him come here to explain his rogue behavior?

The Dude · Sep 9, 2004

jpm said:
Thanks Bryan. What about my idea of having him come here to explain his rogue behavior?

That's something that he has decided not to do. The problem is that there are a few disgruntled players that hate Crystal Palace and will use the forum as a way to spew their anger. True, there are the disgruntled few that can control their emotions, but there are a number of players who can become rather verbally abusive. This is one of the reasons why I've been a bit of a hard ass when it comes to players jumping in stating a casinos sucks or whatever. You aren't going to get very far with that.

bpb · Sep 10, 2004

I played at Cleopatra's two months ago. Claimed a bonus, met the WR, but received only the deposit back ... minus $100 or so in winnings. Emails to support were completely ignored.

I don't know when they turned over this new leaf, but it must be within the past 2 months. I'd like to see them adhering to the T+C of their bonuses for a lot longer than that before taking them off the rogue list.

lanidar · Sep 10, 2004

The problem is that there are a few disgruntled players that hate Crystal Palace and will use the forum as a way to spew their anger.

Click to expand...

With all due respect, Casinomeister, it does appear to be quite a few more disgruntled players than you many think.

bpb · Sep 10, 2004

Simmo! said:
Bonuses are for the gullible IMHO. Period.

My 5K+ in bonus aided winnings doesn't agree with you.

kpthomas said:
Moreover, labeling someone as a "bonus abuser" when that person has followed all the T&C is unacceptable.

But I'll agree with this.

Getting the increased traffic from offering a nice bonus, but not having to pay off some of the advantage players it inherently brings seems kind of crap-o-riffic. Did Warren Clouds group return the deposits of the advantage players who fell on the wrong side of SD and lost their initial deposits?

Simmo! · Sep 10, 2004

bpb said:
My 5K+ in bonus aided winnings doesn't agree with you.

For 2.5k, i could be persuaded to revise my statement

Stanford · Sep 11, 2004

casinomeister said:
That's something that he has decided not to do.

That makes it hard to vote. So I guess you can pass on our concern.

If WC can say that his casino will exemplify the best in behavior then yes. If not, then no. Since we can't talk to him, if he will commit to the eCOGRA standards then fine. If not, which would he object to?

There are lots who have been awarded the seal. That shouldn't be to big a pill to swallow.

Thanks for asking for our input. Have you ever thought about doing that on the other side? Allowing a player to nominate a casino for the warning list.

Stanford

jetset · Sep 11, 2004

Participating in eCOGRA is a sort of tandem affair, Stanford - it involves not only the casino, but the software provider as well, because there are many shared operational interactions where the eGAPs apply. As far as I know RTG have not committed to the eCOGRA initiative and this would make it difficult if not impossible for one of their licensees like the Cloud group to join. More positively, the software providers involvement side is looking promising, I gather - several negotiations are apparently well advanced.

jinnia · Sep 11, 2004

I've learned to not come right out and say this casino or that one is a crook, a liar, a thief, whatever word comes to mind, even though it may be fitting.

I'll start my first post with, 'my experience with , so and so casino, has left me with the opinion of them being..... then state my experience/problem.

As time goes on and the- so and so casino -keeps showing what I've stated about them is true, then I WILL use the fitting word in the rest of what I say about the issue/casino.

Stanford · Sep 12, 2004

jetset said:
I know RTG have not committed to the eCOGRA initiative and this would make it difficult if not impossible for one of their licensees like the Cloud group to join. More positively, the software providers involvement side is looking promising, I gather - several negotiations are apparently well advanced.

Thanks Jetset and I understand. To be clear I wasn't suggesting that he join.

I was just using eCOGRA as a standard of good behavior. Since WC won't come here to discuss behavior as suggested, I thought committing to the standards/practices would be a nice short hand to what he is willing to do.

Pleased to hear though that the software provider side is looking better.

Stanford

Dirk Diggler · Sep 13, 2004

Well I'll soon see if Mr Cloud's has turned over new leaf as he claims.

I've just done a follow up offer at High Rollers Lounge (played there once about a year ago before I read that they were dodgy - lost everything so it didn't matter) and got lucky and have ended up with a balance of over $11,000 from a $1k deposit

It he is true to his word then they'll pay me $4,000 each week in accordance with the website.

jetset · Sep 13, 2004

WTG, Dirk! Nice return.

BTW the last I heard from Goodman regarding your Kiss Casino dispute on the max payout was that he was looking into it again - I've heard nothing further since. Have they been in contact with you and has your issue with them been resolved yet? Have you heard anything further from Montana?

lanidar · Sep 14, 2004

Dirk Diggler said:
Well I'll soon see if Mr Cloud's has turned over new leaf as he claims.

I've just done a follow up offer at High Rollers Lounge (played there once about a year ago before I read that they were dodgy - lost everything so it didn't matter) and got lucky and have ended up with a balance of over $11,000 from a $1k deposit

It he is true to his word then they'll pay me $4,000 each week in accordance with the website.

GOOD LUCK MY FRIEND.....AND I DON'T MEAN THAT SARCASTICALLY.

Dirk Diggler · Sep 14, 2004

jetset said:
WTG, Dirk! Nice return.

BTW the last I heard from Goodman regarding your Kiss Casino dispute on the max payout was that he was looking into it again - I've heard nothing further since. Have they been in contact with you and has your issue with them been resolved yet? Have you heard anything further from Montana?

Cheers Jetset and Lanidar - if only every session could be like this one :thumbsup:

Re: Kiss, I've not heard anything further - I've received the bank draft for $3,850 but nothing on the other $400. I'm not holding my breath TBH.

lanidar · Sep 14, 2004

Cheers Jetset and Lanidar - if only every session could be like this one

From your mouth to God's ears!

jpm · Sep 14, 2004

Without WC coming here and explaining his rogue action and convincing us that he has somehow now repented and seen the error of his ways, I can't see taking him off the rogue list. Where's the guarantee he won't return to his evil ways after he's been de-rogued?

Dirk Diggler · Sep 14, 2004

Well I've just recieved the first $4K of my withdrawal today from High Rollers Lounge - that's less than 24 hours from withdrawing so really can't complain at all.

Could this be the start of Warren Cloud's casinos overtaking Phoenician and Nostalgia as the fastest paying RTG?? :what:

Dirk Diggler · Sep 15, 2004

WOW - after they paid me the $4,000 I requested the rest and they've paid me that within an hour :eek:

Maybe they are turning over a new leaf? - that's a $11,400 ($10,400 profit) payout in a day!!!

Macgyver · Sep 15, 2004

Dirk Diggler said:
WOW - after they paid me the $4,000 I requested the rest and they've paid me that within an hour

Maybe they are turning over a new leaf? - that's a $11,400 ($10,400 profit) payout in a day!!!

Their bank wire transfer must have come in.

Just kidding ... glad to hear there wasn't any delays or such nonsense. :thumbsup:

Crystal Palace Probation?

Should the Crystal Palace Group be placed on Probation?

Yes, they have turned over a new leaf and are okay.

No, I believe they do not deserve it.

I don't care what you do or say. It's the FREE MONEY that I want.

I abstain.

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