Cipher Banned

[The Dude]

Just a heads up that long time poster Cipher was banned indefinitely from the forum today. The reason: he has become an abusive poster. If anyone disagrees with him, he loses all sense of control and tact, and this will not be tolerated in the forum. In a forum such as this, there will be disagreements, but when they occur, you must maintain a sense of cool/calm/collectiveness. A slip up here or there happens, were only human, but when it is consistent and habitual, then its time to leave.

As the forum rules state: Abusive behavior will not be tolerated and your account may be suspended.

Ciphers posts are (IMO) abusive (loud, aggressive, and insulting) and he lacks the ability to maintain a sense of self-control and tact when dealing with subjects he feels strongly about; he seems to thrive off of adversity and confrontation. Last September, he was warned about this aggressiveness, and his account was suspended for several days. I agreed to let him back in under a gentlemans agreement that we would remain civil and maintain a sense of control. But he has breached this, not only here, but privately. He even scoffs that there even was an agreement between us. Whatever.

I do not approve of members using my forum as a platform to pound their chests and attack me in the same breath. All I ask for is the same respect that I would give to you if you were running this place. Apparently this is not possible for Cipher.

 

[maxlevine]

Some may think that it is not my place to post a reply here but I am a member of this community and felt the need to post my personal opinion in the hopes that it will generate positive feedback as opposed to adding fuel to the fire.

Although I am a novice in this industry, I have been online since 1998 and I regard this message board as one of the most informative forums on gambling, mainly because of Casinomeister's knowledge but also from the cooperation of some strong posters who share their expertise. The Jetset, Spearmaster, Grandmaster, Caruso, Dominique, Clayman, Jyde, to name a few, bring a lot more to this community by expressing their opinion than any Google search. As a player and webmaster, I have a lot of gratitude for these people and other posters who participate in communicating their views, sources and findings.

I know this issue was about respect, or the lack of it, but I hope fog will clear up and that Cipher's postings will be welcome again as his contribution to this forum, as far as I'm concerned, was far more significant than the negativity that could come out from some of his disparaging words. After all, we ARE only human and some things you just won't change.

Max

 

[universexf6]

Just a heads up that long time poster Cipher was banned indefinitely from the forum today. The reason: he has become an abusive poster. If anyone disagrees with him, he loses all sense of control and tact, and this will not be tolerated in the forum. In a forum such as this, there will be disagreements, but when they occur, you must maintain a sense of cool/calm/collectiveness. A slip up here or there happens, were only human, but when it is consistent and habitual, then its time to leave.

As the forum rules state: Abusive behavior will not be tolerated and your account may be suspended.

Ciphers posts are (IMO) abusive (loud, aggressive, and insulting) and he lacks the ability to maintain a sense of self-control and tact when dealing with subjects he feels strongly about; he seems to thrive off of adversity and confrontation. Last September, he was warned about this aggressiveness, and his account was suspended for several days. I agreed to let him back in under a gentlemans agreement that we would remain civil and maintain a sense of control. But he has breached this, not only here, but privately. He even scoffs that there even was an agreement between us. Whatever.

I do not approve of members using my forum as a platform to pound their chests and attack me in the same breath. All I ask for is the same respect that I would give to you if you were running this place. Apparently this is not possible for Cipher.

Hmmmm... I have no idea why you are so strict. While I must admit I have been here for shorter time than any other people but he didn't look so agressive enough to ba banned forever??At least he looked a very sensible man. I know I must be more reserved since I don't know what happened between you and him but I think it is a bit too much. I am sorry if this makes you angry, please ban me too.

 

[kmartinusa]

Cipher?

I have mixed emotions regarding Cipher.

On an exchange that I had with him over a year ago, he proved to be quite the jerk to me...I ended up being right and he never apologised for his behavior. I tried my best to be as respectful and helpful in posting as was possible, including to him personally. His contact in the end was the same person to whom I referred to in my post, but he wasn't satisfied until he had personal contact with the same individual. If anyone reading this needs clarification, just look at my posting history related to "vegas red". That will tell the tale."David" was my contact a long time before Cipher found him and personally legitimised the casinos in question. "Cipher" pissed me off, and good.

Putting that aside, I have mostly found his posts to be helpful and insightful. He seems to be pretty much a player's advocate who acts only on the facts that he has personal knowledge of. I have found this to be reassuring. I have not yet looked into what upset Bryan, but I have no doubt of Bryan's patience and his judgement.

I haven't taken the time to research or understand his "Cypher Strands" but I understand the intent and purpose of his analysis. I have also found this reassuring as a player as we all need some truly independant analysys done on an ongoing basis in order to continually reassure us that we are being treated fairly. I have been gambling online for a long time and I often wonder whether the software providers or casinos have decided to tilt things now and then....would be easy to do without someone watching.

I guess that the point of me posting is in no means to question Bryan's decision. I am inconsequential in his world and don't pretend to have any reason to question the boss. It's his home, after all.

The point of this message, I guess, is to give credit to Cipher for his contribution to all of us as players. I also want to let Bryan know that I (maybe we?) appreciate his judgement as I've been a recipient of Cipher's vitriol.

Thanks to both of you for what you do for us,

Kevin

 

[chuchu59]

universexf6,

No need to be so uptight. If your post renders you being banned,half of the posters will disappear. However,i do agree with you that from the look of things ie Cipher's posts,it did not warrant a banning. In fact,since joining this forum,I did have a certain respect for Cipher as he seemed to go all out for the players. True,his wording may be aggressive but not nearly as offensive as hahacasino or bethug. At Bryan's final reply to cipher,he used cipher's line 'have a good one' and being a very sensitive person,I smelt a rat. And here you are,Cipher's banning. Still,we dont know what actually transpired between the 2 of them in private but based on the posts alone,I must say that I really dont feel the need for banning him. Have a good one.

 

[eek]

It a pity that these things happen and the 'gene pool' is reduced as a result.
There may come a time that a truly independent messageboard is needed for players and webmasters/industry people.
WOL did well for years until a recent change in policy seemed to alienate some members.
They had a huge spread and breadth of experience and people, like in here, who squabbled like ferrets in a sack sometimes but the underlying pool of talent and information was pretty unbeatable.

Somewhere where no conflict of interest can arise, and you get banned for spamming and serious abuse only.

 

[jonevegas]

I do think Cipher had some good points but I also believe when people think they are bigger than life, they act that way and sometimes we just need to be reminded.

 

[jetset]

I do think Cipher had some good points but I also believe when people think they are bigger than life, they act that way and sometimes we just need to be reminded.

IMO that is one of the most relevant posts in this thread.

Bannings are never pleasant or desirable, and there is a natural resistance in all of us to this ultimate sanction, especially when it involves experienced members who have commanded respect. It is also true that banning tends to bring out some with a buried agenda that is at times based on a personal dislike of the webmaster concerned, or a relationship with the banee.

In my experience the 'Meister is among the slowest to take this course of action, and he was upfront about why in his public announcement last Friday.

I'm not going to defend BB's integrity because I shouldn't have to - his record speaks for itself and he has considerable influence and respect in this industry, yet he is currently being imv unreasonably maligned outside this board for being *anti-player* and *pro casino*. Sorry, but imo that is sheer BS. His is a balanced and fair approach and that's what gets results far superior to those achieved by any other player advocate, and faster too.

The suggestion that there should be a "truly independent" forum has been raised just about every time a webmaster bans someone, yet this never materialises. Why? Because those suggesting it talk the talk but don't take the initiative and try and realise their concept? I don't personally see it working, because someone has to be in charge and do the work, and fora provide more than just a place to exchange ideas and information or indulge in personal profile building. They are venues where a diversity of contacts and talents that reside not only in players can be deployed for the common good.

This particular forum is but one facet of a content-rich portal. It has a really effective diversity of opinion from a broad cross section of the online gambling activity, and it continues to expand with new members and their experiences and opinions. In return they get a wealth of advice, expertise and assistance from other members and practical, effective support when they have a legitimate problem.

The cost for all this is an obligation to retain personal control of your conduct and extend the courtesy of basic respect to the host.

I think that's a bargain.

 

[The Dude]

Some may think that it is not my place to post a reply here but I am a member of this community and felt the need to post my personal opinion in the hopes that it will generate positive feedback as opposed to adding fuel to the fire.

Although I am a novice in this industry, I have been online since 1998 and I regard this message board as one of the most informative forums on gambling, mainly because of Casinomeister's knowledge but also from the cooperation of some strong posters who share their expertise. The Jetset, Spearmaster, Grandmaster, Caruso, Dominique, Clayman, Jyde, to name a few, bring a lot more to this community by expressing their opinion than any Google search. As a player and webmaster, I have a lot of gratitude for these people and other posters who participate in communicating their views, sources and findings.

I know this issue was about respect, or the lack of it, but I hope fog will clear up and that Cipher's postings will be welcome again as his contribution to this forum, as far as I'm concerned, was far more significant than the negativity that could come out from some of his disparaging words. After all, we ARE only human and some things you just won't change.

Max

Hi Max - and everyone else,

This issue was more than just respect, it was his behavior that caused his banning. Believe me, I have pretty thick skin and I can handle the personal dig here or there, but when personal digs cross the border into being malicious - and then abusive. I put an end to it. On the other hand, I'm a very forgiving person - and have changed my mind about these sort of things more than once, regrettably this situation is a bit different.

I'm not going to get into a public slinging match with Cipher - I find this both unprofessional and needless. Unfortunately, I don't see him being let back into this board, and I'll tell you why.

I rely on trust dealing with anything in this business. Sometimes trust is all we have in this industry - and it is a very fragile thing. This goes from dealing with player complaints to dealing with casino operators. When you trust someone and that person breaches that trust, you feel violated.

I can no longer trust Cipher - and I have solid reasons not to. He can trash me all he wants in public, it doesn't concern me since I believe most people can see through this "trashing" and realize where this anger is coming from. What should be a concern is that I do not trust the man. And that should speak for itself.

Cipher has enough platforms to market his wares or push his agenda - so it's not like he's not out there. He even has his own website. And I'm sure if you miss any prolific Cipherisms you'll be able to find him at your local Casinomeister hate-fest.

This is a very dynamic forum. It's been around longer than most, and its main focus, purpose, and administration has remained virtually unchanged in the past six years. My philosophy: I run this place just like inviting people into my living room. I expect people to behave themselves - you would too if this were your place. True - discussions will at times get emotional or heated, but if you lose self control and punch me in the face, you're going to be thrown out. I don't care how good a friend you might think you are; I doubt you will be invited back in again.

That's all I have to say about the matter. I really don't want to waste any more time on this. Thanks!

 

[caruso]

I rely on trust dealing with anything in this business. Sometimes trust is all we have in this industry - and it is a very fragile thing. This goes from dealing with player complaints to dealing with casino operators.

I would probably react in similar vein if I took a bashing in my own backyard. This "trust" thing may or may not be misplaced, however, and it may be that which ends up riling people into counter-productive comments. You don't trust players, you look at the proof: the three complaints I've personally submitted - Angelciti plus two little Microgaming niggles that were never made public - have been stone-cold certs; all the documentation was there as proof that the player was in the right. I'll take a guess that most all other successful mediations are based on the same evidence requirement: screenshots, emails...the lot. Are the same criteria required at the other end, or is it more a matter of trust, trust to a degree based on the personal touch, having met a lot of people in the industry - a courtesy which clearly cannot be extended to players, each of whom is an individual Joe Bloggs? While the latter is right and proper, is "that" trust extended to the casino side fitting, and is it not open to abuse? Are the same stone-cold-cert requirements that players are held to in place at the casino side? For example, the recent Crystal Palace complaint: Do we know that 1) the information supplied by Cloud is genuine and that he hasn't passed spurious information to RTG, or 2) that RTG are not party to a little "nepotism" on behalf of Cloud, their biggest licensee and good buddy of Staw, and are feeding you a line of BS? You doubt this - but do you KNOW? Cloud has a documented history as a fraudster - why take him at his word? Are the requirements that the player is held to the same for the casino? In the case that led to Cipher's barring, do we take on oath that the player has six accounts? Is the fact that the casino invoked "robot play" (LOL) not an indicator that they're not exactly squeaky-clean? Are we sure that his Neteller cheques bounced, or is there something we're missing (I haven't followed the ins and outs of that case so can't comment too much)?

My point is that there may be a perception that the word "fraudster" is too glibly used, that the judgement criteria is softer for the casino than it is for the player. Bryan IS generally a "trusting" and otherwise decent sort of person - that comes across in his writing style generally and from meeting him - he's a mild-mannered and modest fellow who puts a lot of store in the personal touch, for all I'm sure he gets off on the reputation of being the ball-busting Casinomeister (hell, I would too). It follows that, all good intentions aside, a degree of leniancy may end up being demonstrated on the casino side, all other things being equal, as a result of that "personal touch" experience - coupled of course to the fact that he has met a lot of genuine player fraud. Where a player's word is insufficient, it MAY be that the casino is on occasion taken at theirs, or something along those lines.

That, I think, is what lay behind this.

 

[Petunia]

** Hey there everyone - I have been in this industry for a very very long time. I know Bryan from waaaaaaaay back when, although he might not remember meeting me. I choose not to get into debates about things, but I like hanging around and seeing things. I think there is no excuse for bashing of any sort or slips of tongue. Personally, I sometimes feel like calling pple all sorts of stupid names to describe my opinion of them, instead, i choose to not say anything or just make light of things. Cipher IMHO did a great job in standing up for the players, for sure, but sometimes i think he spoke his mind exactly instead of thinking through what he is saying and trying to bring the message across in a 'suitable' manner. Personally i found it entertaining, but I can say that if you allow one person to do so, then more will follow. I know he has been asked to tone it down, i don't know about the trust issue whith him and Bryan, but that is between them. Being banned from the boards... well, it takes quite some doing as a long time poster to get yourself banned, so i will accept that it was done in a 'fair' manner based on concrete reasons rather than personal disagreements. I am not one to kiss booty to Bryan or anyone else, but I have learned to curb my tongue when it was needed, without having to be asked. I guess this is all that is really expected of everyone on here. that is just my 2c. I thought i'd share it. **

 

[spearmaster]

he's a mild-mannered and modest fellow

Deja vu?

Now I know what to buy him for his next birthday ... a cape!

 

[dominique]

Cypher had some valuable contributions to make and these were the reason that I have overlooked a few times when I felt abused by him. These were some time ago, nothing of late.

Just recently we had a very simmilair siruation at CAP, where we had to suspend a member who made valuable contributions but was abusive and insulting to other members again and again.

For a long time it was excused as "posting style", but eventually complaints and hurt feelings abounded and something had to be done.

Voicing one's opinions, even heated ones, even being opinionated, is always ok and possible to do without being abusive and insulting to others.

Moderating a board is not an easy job, and the one thing that is of great help is the support of the posters. Bryan is not only moderating, it's his board. We are all his guests.

You just don't insult and devalue and demean other posters. It's unnecessary and just causes bad feelings. And, needless to say, you don't do that to your host either.

It has nothing to do with freedom of expression, that remains untouched. It has to do with mutual respect.

 

[vgyhnji]

dominique is spot on:

'Voicing one's opinions, even heated ones, even being opinionated, is always ok and possible to do without being abusive and insulting to others.

Moderating a board is not an easy job, and the one thing that is of great help is the support of the posters. Bryan is not only moderating, it's his board. We are all his guests.

You just don't insult and devalue and demean other posters. It's unnecessary and just causes bad feelings. And, needless to say, you don't do that to your host either.'

A while back on my return to the forum, after self imposed exile, I included the following as part explanation for my absence:

'Though internet anonymity is a defence for the genuine poster it is also a line of attack for the rogues in us all.'

I have both agreed and disagreed with Cipher on many occasions, with or without posting to the effect, since I first came to this forum.

To his credit he has certainly been here a lot longer, contributed to the forum and helped others far more than I. Credit where credit is due.

However, I agree with Bryans decision to ban anyone from his board, no matter their previous contribution if they think that 'brownie points' earnt historically can be used to veil currently 'out of order' behaviour.

 

[bewitch]

This ia a tough suitation. I respect Cipher a lot as he is always polite and helpful to me even I am not a big or a very smart player. He never hestitate to answer my quesion or reply my email. Personally I think him as a friend. I hate to see him get banned here.

Casinomeister is right about this forum is like his living room and he has his right to decide who is welcome and who is not. However, I disagree the part about the "trust" stuff. It's like put a question mark or cloud in people's mind and it might damage others feeling to cipher. It should just be between person to person. Just my 2 cents and you might not like it.

We all have temper and is nature to let the emotion control over our head or mouth. It happen to me all the time. Running a public forum is very hard but that's the price you have to pay to get what you are looking for. Best luck to everyone.

 

[mitch]

The main trouble with Cipher is that he has a huge ego and can not bear to be challenged even in what appears to be quite a minor way.

I certainly have had a couple of runnins with Cipher, never being quite convinced over his motives for constantly pushing his 'Strands'.

Having said that he was a character and added 'spice' to the forum imo. I regret that Cipher will no longer be posting.

It is a tricky business this, running a successful forum.
I am sure that Brian doesn't want to make the same mistake as Max on WOL where he started bashing posters (even Clayman!) for trivial reasons (though I am not saying this issue is trivial) and led to much reduced dynamism imo.

Cipher should realise that none of us are perfect and he has been around long enough to know that if Bryan, and his ego, has a weak spot it is around the issue of his integrity, and for Cipher to basically abuse Bryan and insult him on this issue then he was playing a dangerous game.

Obviously I am not aware of what lies behind the 'trust' matter Bryan mentions but leaving this aside perhaps Cipher will eventually be welcomed back.

Mitch

 

[wanda5]

Like my Dad use to say to my brother "if youre going to live under my roof, you are going to repect me and the rest of the family. Play by my rules or find another place to live"
Its not always easy to be the dad. Sorry ya had to do that Bryan, but I am sure you had good reason. For anyone to give you crap about it...they can always start thier own message board...This is your house!

 

[slotchik]

Like my Dad use to say to my brother "if youre going to live under my roof, you are going to repect me and the rest of the family. Play by my rules or find another place to live"
Its not always easy to be the dad. Sorry ya had to do that Bryan, but I am sure you had good reason. For anyone to give you crap about it...they can always start thier own message board...This is your house!

DITTO

 

[caruso]

Cipher posted at WOL. When a highly regarded (if mouthy) member of the community gets barred from a high-profile forum, the rights or wrongs of the barring notwithstanding he DOES have the "right" to make his case to his listeners in a place he figures he'll be heard.

WOL denied him that right. The thread was deleted.

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Oh dear oh dear oh dear. Business as usual at WOL. I respect Bryan's right to administer his own board as he sees fit and I don't question for a minute his right to barr Cipher, and I think Cipher could have well tempered his remarks, BUT that is SO f***ed up it's unreal. That just sucks.

EDIT: To say that how WOL manage their board is not intended as any sort of a comment on any board other than that one, and that my remarks weren't intended as a comment on Cipher's removal or the rights or wrongs of the issue leading to it.

 

[slotchik]

caruso, werent you banned at WOL??? Are you still?

 

[eek]

The old dog was allowed to return under certain conditions.

(I believe one of them involved neutering. )

 

[jetset]

Quote:
Originally Posted by wanda5
Like my Dad use to say to my brother "if youre going to live under my roof, you are going to repect me and the rest of the family. Play by my rules or find another place to live"
Its not always easy to be the dad. Sorry ya had to do that Bryan, but I am sure you had good reason. For anyone to give you crap about it...they can always start thier own message board...This is your house! Unquote


Quote DITTO Unquote

That works for me, too.

Having read the deplorable content of the recent posts on this at WOL (BL's death wish was particularly poisonous, and I did not like the "Fuhrer" pejorative) I am not surprised that it would be dropped by any reputable message board.

There's always the Sucks platform, of course LOL

 

[linda7]

Re: Cipher

Hi everyone:

I have always found Cipher to be a gentleman, intelligent and helpful. I cannot imagine him cursing or abusing anyone. I can very clearly remember being verbally attacked on this site by a portal owner or some kind of nonsense like that, named "Integrity". This animal called me the worse name you could call a lady, and he did it over and over again. Yet, he was not banned...hmmmm. Integrity stays/Cipher gets banned. Makes no sense to me at all. Then again, alot has changed in the industry, and not for the better. As Cipher would say....Have a good one!

Linda

 

[The Dude]

Hi everyone:

I have always found Cipher to be a gentleman, intelligent and helpful. I cannot imagine him cursing or abusing anyone. I can very clearly remember being verbally attacked on this site by a portal owner or some kind of nonsense like that, named "Integrity". This animal called me the worse name you could call a lady, and he did it over and over again. Yet, he was not banned...hmmmm. Integrity stays/Cipher gets banned. Makes no sense to me at all. Then again, alot has changed in the industry, and not for the better. As Cipher would say....Have a good one!

Linda

Integrity was banned during that incident which I clearly remember well.

 

[linda7]

To Bryan

Hi Bryan,

You made me so happy, as I really thought that Integrity was not banned. I was so upset all this time for no good reason....I think it's time for the doctor to up my meds...lol. In all sincerity, thank you Bryan. I never knew that you took the position and banned him. I happily stand corrected.

Linda

 

[two_card]

I found Cipher's posts to be of good value.

I will miss Cipher.

 

[bagofmaggots]

Quote:

There's always the Sucks platform, of course LOL

and it's funny too

 

[m249a]

I can't find the thread that caused cipher to be banned? A new member, or older one like myself, only has this thread to read. Was it moved? Or deleted? Or am I simply lacking the skills to find it? If someone knows where it went please direct me to it. Thanks.......BTW I for one will miss cipher.

 

[wanda5]

Quote
There's always the Sucks platform, of course LOL[/QUOTE]


LOVE IT!! Reminded me of "the nanny" and her "naughty pad" that the kids have to sit on when they are bad.

grrrr...

Its irritating me so bad that people are ragging on Bryan about this, but I cant keep my big mouth shut & I will drop it after I vent....

PLEASE think about this before you say mean things...He created this place where FOR FREE he helps all of us, old and new members. I am amazed because theres so much work involved, yet he still does it asking only that we stick to the rules.

I've been here a long time and its not like he jumps the gun, gets pissed and just bans people for no reason. He was even nice enough to try to explain it. I have never seen anyone banned that didnt deserve it and if you are going to side with someone that cannot keep from being insulting and disrespectful rather than understanding and respecting what Bryan did...well, i just dont get it.

If he was YOUR friend, and you had nice things to say about him, great, if you feel like you needed to say something...thats not my gripe...I never had a problems with him myself. But for those who rag on Bryan when you are in HIS house, to me, its just wrong. And I hope you dont need his help someday...because he would probably still be there for you.

Just because YOU personally get along with someone, DOES NOT make it ok that he upsets others. The rules are very simple and adults should be able to stick to them. We are a great group & in so many other message groups people are insulting & rude, and like (i think) Jetset said, "its tollorated" and that not only causes problems for the seasoned members, but also can be very intimidating to the new comers who become afraid to post. No one should have to come here fearing a possible attack or humiliation when they came here with a sincere question.

Go to search and just read some of his responses to people. Some were very helpful, yes, but the rude ones were just that *RUDE* and totally uncalled for. Why should bryan have to play defense or worry about babysitting someone who knows the rules AND had been warned??? It takes away from us when he has to waste so much time on crap like this...that time could be spent helping someone who needs it...it could be you one day.

I love and depend on this place & the great friends I have made here, and I am glad they dont have to worry about thugs for too long. I'm not trying to start an ongoing post fight, but you defended your friend so i'm defending mine.

OK I vented and I'm done now

Wanda

 

[slotchik]

I agree. Bryan doesn't just BAN people for the hell of it. There has to be a good reason. We're in his house...if we don't like it here. ....we should leave.

 

[bewitch]

You girls are right. I should leave or ban myself here because I admit this bother me a lot and I din't like the feeling at all. Sorry~

Have a good one! Happy Chinese New Year!!!

 

[gfkostas]

Some people should just accept the facts.The 'big daddy' decided that cipher is not welcome anymore here so that's the way it is we like it or not.Move on.....

 

[jinnia]

A forum on the internet is not someones home. It may be their project, or line of work, but it is not a home.

With that said, I don't believe in banning anyone for any reason, but some people has no problem doing it, and if a poster is attacking another person, be it the owner of the forum or another poster, the owner can do as he or she pleases and there's not one thing any one can do about it.

 

[jinnia]

There's always the Sucks platform, of course LOL

Shame on you!!

 

[unicorn40]

Jetset seems to have a thing about sucks.

He mentions it on a regular basis, always in a sarcastic manner.

Originally Posted by jetset:
There's always the Sucks platform, of course LOL

I happen to like the sucks forum.

Different strokes for different folks, huh jetset?

 

[paul1]

I happen to like the sucks forum.

Well that sux.

 

[jetset]

Yes indeed, "different strokes for different folks" Unicorn - you have your opinion and I have mine about Sucks or for that matter anything else, and we are both entitled to express it if we do so in a civilised manner. I take it you do not have a problem with that, seeing as you apparently like the Sucks style of discourse?

Jinnia, I'm afraid I disagree with you. A forum is something created by the sweat of someone's brow, at his or her expense and sustained effort over time. The owner carries all of the risk, and imo he or she therefore has the privilege of right of admission, or to ask for reasonable standards of honesty and conduct.

 

[philipfromparis]

to be or not to be...banned

Well,

actually i'm not very old in this community but old enough to have my own opinion about cipher's banishment that i would like to share with others.

To be banned because of a disrespectful behaviour towards others is something that i can understand very well. The question is has cipher been disrespectful towards anybody there : i've read in the previous posts of this thread that he's been so, but who do dare throw the first stone ?

To be banned because you have different opinions from the owner of the place is something i do not agree at all. As far as i'm concerned, a well known forum is built day after day by the contribution and the hard work of his owner indeed, but above all by all the contributions of its members.

An open forum, as far as i think, is a place where freedom of expression should be the spearhead, no matter what is the colour of your skin, your political or ethnics origins...

Had Cipher not respected the rules ? No one knows obviously. But according to the number of reactions caused, and because everybody respects the work, the professionalism and the devotion of Casinomeister, this should be used as lesson in the future.

Because the democracy belongs to everyone who has the chance to live in a democratic place, who fought for it, and as i consider this forum to be a democratic one, the banishment of one of its democratic member should be the concern of everybody here.

In conclusion to this, i would propose, if this should happen in a near future, a democratic vote between the members who feel concerned, when it's question of the banishment of one casinomeister's forum member. This should avoid such passion in the future.

To be or not to be banned... that is the question....

Philipfromparis

 

[Petunia]

Well,

Because the democracy belongs to everyone who has the chance to live in a democratic place, who fought for it, and as i consider this forum to be a democratic one, the banishment of one of its democratic member should be the concern of everybody here.

In conclusion to this, i would propose, if this should happen in a near future, a democratic vote between the members who feel concerned, when it's question of the banishment of one casinomeister's forum member. This should avoid such passion in the future.

To be or not to be banned... that is the question....

Philipfromparis

**Philip, why don't you run for presidency? I have not said very much, and could not let this go by without saying my bit.

I have a democratic right to be here, but bryan has a democratic right to choose if I should be here or not. A vote does not make it democratic in some situations, as the offence committed might not be seen as offensive to MOST rather to the one it was committed against! Who are we to decide. THIS place is not a home, but we spend enough time here to have it a 'virtual place' of sorts. public means that everything is out in the open, but it does not mean that if my creativity includes certain phrases, words or accusations that it should be accepted AND permitted. So all in all. I am no politician, but this is really becoming more and more about finger pointing.
fact. bryan banned ciprus, fact, bryan is the ONLY one who overturn that right to of choice. FACT - if anyone else is not happy with it you can leave. my 2c ... uncoherent as it is today**

 

[jinnia]

Jinnia, I'm afraid I disagree with you. A forum is something created by the sweat of someone's brow, at his or her expense and sustained effort over time. The owner carries all of the risk, and imo he or she therefore has the privilege of right of admission, or to ask for reasonable standards of honesty and conduct.

What part are you disagreeing to of what I posted?

I don't believe in banning anyone for any reason, but some people has no problem doing it, and if a poster is attacking another person, be it the owner of the forum or another poster, the owner can do as he or she pleases and there's not one thing any one can do about it.

 

[jinnia]

I do believe everyone knows they can just LEAVE if they're not happy somewhere, it don't need to be stated over and over, we got it!!

 

[m249a]

A forum is something created by the sweat of someone's brow, at his or her expense and sustained effort over time. The owner carries all of the risk, and imo he or she therefore has the privilege of right of admission, or to ask for reasonable standards of honesty and conduct.

Well said my friend. The fact of the matter is this........Bryan does not charge a fee to belong to this forum. Therefore it is his rules, and it is at his sole discretion that folks be allowed to post or even look at his work. There is NO democratic process involved, no board of directors ect...It is simply Bryans rules or leave, or be shown to the door. It is generous enough to allow the rest of us to debate and or express our opinions. I will miss cipher, some are glad he is gone, and most likely most members could care less either way. In a week or two there will be 10 other things to discuss, and this thread will be forgotten. Such is life.

 

[jetset]

That's a very thoughtful post, Philip and I especially agree with QUOTE ....a well known forum is built day after day by the contribution and the hard work of his owner indeed, but above all by all the contributions of its members.UNQUOTE I second that wholeheartedly. There is definitely mutual benefit here for both members and owner.

But a forum is not Parliament, the Knesset, Congress, the Duma or any other democratic institution owned by The People as a whole. And even then there are procedural and conduct requirements in those august bodies that bind the members and can result in them being disciplined by the Whips or the Speaker.

I don't think we can seriously equate a message board with the common understanding of what constitutes a full democracy - it's someone's property and probably livlihood which if screwed up has an adverse impact on the individual and not the posters. That in itself constrains the webmaster/owner from unfair decisions for the reasons your post suggests.

It's a democracy insofar as there is freedom of exchange of opinion effected through reasonable personal conduct requested by the owner/webmaster, bearing in mind his/her level of risk of losing members for too anarchic a board as much as too stringent a discipline. And in the case of Casinomeister.com those requirements have frequently been voiced and are far from onerous.

There are some folks who find abusive and unsubstantiated rants, hurtful insults, and unrestrained emotional flaming unpleasant and unnecessary. There are alternative sites that find this sort of behaviour "fun" but I doubt these accomplish as much for the player as this site does through its wealth of experience and contacts from both players and other folks involved in online gaming. And the commitment of its webmaster to fair play for all.

I don't see BB as being the big bad monster here, and I suspect there is at least some confusion between resistance to the concept of banning and the circumstances of this particular case.

Past history indicates that BB is reluctant to ban, quick to try and reconcile and that Cipher was warned on a previous occasion and in this one. His reaction to that may not have left BB any alternatives and judging by the vitriolic nature of some of the posts that have been appearing elsewhere that could still be the case.

 

[philipfromparis]

**Philip, why don't you run for presidency? I have not said very much, and could not let this go by without saying my bit.

I have a democratic right to be here, but bryan has a democratic right to choose if I should be here or not. A vote does not make it democratic in some situations, as the offence committed might not be seen as offensive to MOST rather to the one it was committed against! Who are we to decide. THIS place is not a home, but we spend enough time here to have it a 'virtual place' of sorts. public means that everything is out in the open, but it does not mean that if my creativity includes certain phrases, words or accusations that it should be accepted AND permitted. So all in all. I am no politician, but this is really becoming more and more about finger pointing.
fact. bryan banned ciprus, fact, bryan is the ONLY one who overturn that right to of choice. FACT - if anyone else is not happy with it you can leave. my 2c ... uncoherent as it is today**

Hi Petunia,

I entirely respect your opinion. And what makes this place interesting is that different opinions are confronted with others. Having a different opinion from you and beeing able to expose it makes the debate richer. Of course it is the entire right of Bryan to bann anyone he decides to,and who am i to tell the contrary.

But beyond Cipher's bannishment, and what i wanted to underline is that if Bryan's forum is the number one, it is because he lets everybody express themselves. The reason of Bryan's forum success is all about appropriation. People take over his work but over all, do recognize themselves around a common passion. Danger appears when the appropriation is too big for the owner of the place, but that is the best proof of the success.

As far as i'm concerned, i close the brackets on this thread and wish you a beautiful l day Petunia.

Philipfromparis

 

[jetset]

That's a very fair post, M249a, and I am sure the last thing BB (or for that matter many other members like myself here) would like to see would be the departure of members who have opinions and knowledge that we respect if not always share. The loss would be theirs, too imo.

Jinnia, I was referring to "A forum on the internet is not someones home. It may be their project, or line of work, but it is not a home." Home being understood to be in the general sense of a favoured portal.

 

[philipfromparis]

That's a very thoughtful post, Philip and I especially agree with QUOTE ....a well known forum is built day after day by the contribution and the hard work of his owner indeed, but above all by all the contributions of its members.UNQUOTE I second that wholeheartedly. There is definitely mutual benefit here for both members and owner.

But a forum is not Parliament, the Knesset, Congress, the Duma or any other democratic institution owned by The People as a whole. And even then there are procedural and conduct requirements in those august bodies that bind the members and can result in them being disciplined by the Whips or the Speaker.

I don't think we can seriously equate a message board with the common understanding of what constitutes a full democracy - it's someone's property and probably livlihood which if screwed up has an adverse impact on the individual and not the posters. That in itself constrains the webmaster/owner from unfair decisions for the reasons your post suggests.

It's a democracy insofar as there is freedom of exchange of opinion effected through reasonable personal conduct requested by the owner/webmaster, bearing in mind his/her level of risk of losing members for too anarchic a board as much as too stringent a discipline. And in the case of Casinomeister.com those requirements have frequently been voiced and are far from onerous.

There are some folks who find abusive and unsubstantiated rants, hurtful insults, and unrestrained emotional flaming unpleasant and unnecessary. There are alternative sites that find this sort of behaviour "fun" but I doubt these accomplish as much for the player as this site does through its wealth of experience and contacts from both players and other folks involved in online gaming. And the commitment of its webmaster to fair play for all.

I don't see BB as being the big bad monster here, and I suspect there is at least some confusion between resistance to the concept of banning and the circumstances of this particular case.

Past history indicates that BB is reluctant to ban, quick to try and reconcile and that Cipher was warned on a previous occasion and in this one. His reaction to that may not have left BB any alternatives and judging by the vitriolic nature of some of the posts that have been appearing elsewhere that could still be the case.

Jetset,

you are the voice of the reason and as written previously to Petunia, i close the brackets on this thread. It's a pleasure to share with you and others

Philipfromparis

 

[The Dude]

Thanks everyone for your input on this - I've been following your comments closely.

I don't want anyone to think that I'm instituting a policy of "It's my way or the highway - if you don't like it, leave." I never have done this, and I never will. Those of you who know me, know that this is not of my nature.

If you don't see things eye-to-eye with me, or with other members, that's fine. Argue your position in a reasonable manner and you will have all ears and eyes.

I don't feel that I run this place with an iron fist, on the contrary, but with a velvet glove - and I do my damnest to be fair when the shit gets thick.

The forum is a community, and with every community there are rules. I don't ask for too much. And no one should have to refer to the rules all that often because they are based on having common courtesy for one another:
https://www.casinomeister.com/forums/help/forum-rules/

Unfortunately, there have been few members that did not feel that these rules applied to them, and this is a no-go here. There also seems to be a misconception that I am banning people who don't get along with me. This is false. There are 39 banned accounts at Casinomeister; most of these are spammers or from fraudulent postings. 14 are members who became confrontational and abusive with other members. Only four had a run-in with me.

The mission at Casinomeister is to provide information, simple as that. It's not a platform to stand around and beat my chest, or send rogue casinos to roguedom hell - it's to provide information.

And I don't do it alone, I do it with the assistance of the forum members. Each member new and old, lurker or prolific, daft or Einstein-ian; I appreciate and embrace you all.

Just give everyone the courtesy by abiding by the rules. Thanks.

 

[Lurkio]

I appreciate and embrace you all.

Just give everyone the courtesy by abiding by the rules. Thanks.

Even moi BB ???!!!! You DO love me!!

Jetset..please stop using so many long high fallutin joind-edy up words! My brain hurts from your ubererudite post.

 

[slotchik]

Well Said Bryan,,,, but I still say, to those who don't agree with Bry, don't read this board....goodbye.

 

[Anteater]

Cipher is playing a role as whistle here, a big help to new comer. Who will laugh to hell by his banning--you got what you want, some evil casino either.